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| WHY gamers dislike KOEI games in general?; Lets take an in depth look... | |
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| Topic Started: Apr 27 2008, 11:54 AM (2,988 Views) | |
| Xalfrea | Apr 27 2008, 11:54 AM Post #1 |
Organization XIII's Number XV
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It's common knowledge that gamers dislike KOEI games, but whats been on my mind recently is WHY they don't like them? Repetitiveness is one of the most common criticisms, but what about other games? NBA Live? Madden? DDR? Guitar Hero? What causes gamers to flock to these games that possibly have more repetitiveness than the Warriors games? Is it because they are historical? Do the average gamers today don't like games that teach them something? Do they feel, when playing these games, like they are in school? Is it because of KOEI itself, not making as much effort on their games unlike say, Capcom? Could it be the gamers themselves, who live in a world of Wiinderful wonders and 360 degrees of awesomeness that they are spoiled and expect too much? I want to see everyones opinion on this situation, and while gamers have every right to say what they want on any game, we need to look at the basis for their complaints. |
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| God-Like Phoenix | Apr 27 2008, 12:00 PM Post #2 |
Mercenary General
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i say that people dont like them because of the repetative nature of the games, they want something that can keep them occupied for hours on end, while giving different styles of play all through, mixing up the play style. I agree with that you said that the historical aspect might deter them away frmo KOEI games, most people want to be taken away to a world thats new and fascinating, one thats going to be interesting, and completely unpredicatable, but if its historical, you just have to read a little to know the story, and that might be a bit of a turn off for most gamers. |
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| LittleDragonZ | Apr 27 2008, 12:09 PM Post #3 |
Behold the spear of Baby Dragon!
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I believe its because Koei have taken full advantage of the expansions and use this feature too commonly. You get the times where the expanion packs and the main title were once a full title in progress, but were split apart in order to get more profit. This could be why they are a bit weary around Koei since its being exploited far too much. And then they look away from the fans for supporting this action. Though I do not really find it too much of a problem for me to be honest. Some reasons why are: 1. Near enough constant news about new games to keep us stuck to our screens. 2. A smaller gap between the titles. Roughly 6 months apart from what could've been a 1 year + difference if they were together. |
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| Lord Crow | Apr 27 2008, 12:20 PM Post #4 |
Orochi's Wrath
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I would agree that people say a lot of Koei games are repetitive. To be exact the Warriors series are very very repetitive as it is hack and slash and keeps killing until you finish the stage, but what makes each different are the stages, character designs, graphics, new characters, new movesets, stage's objectives, and flow of story and stages. |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 01:12 PM Post #5 |
Han's Unifier
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i think its 2 sides of the medal here. First of games have become big buisiness, so yes players are being spoiled or rather said manipulated with graphical tricks in the way games are looking more and more fancy, less gameplay so people will buy more new games, face it in the early 90s (when the game-age was at its peak for consoles) games where quite dephtly and you would have to master a game untill you got sick of it, this could mean dieing a thousand times before you could get past the first stage. These days you have a overkill on savepoints and overpowering items or weapons. You see that recipe in mmorpgs the most, with the addition of collecting items wich koei actually does add in their games, exept for in dw6 though  The world is going faster and faster, people would yell at their pc/console if it wouldnt load their game within 5 seconds, 10 years ago loading a game would take at least a minute and did we complain? Games thus are becoming faster, its like candy, and funnily let me add a contrast that kids these days are drinking energy drinks as if its lemonade. So yes they are being spoiled big time with fast paced candy games that have little story and lots of "put your brain on sleep-mode"(look it up, its true) action. Most games these days are as much a drug as alcohol. Gladly this isnt far from true for all of the games, and koei does indeed make alot of games that make you either think or listen. Still, i lately have the feeling that koei is abandoning this after having seen amateuristic rpgs like atelier iris and the next gen failure dw6. Fact is most people dont like rpgs sim-rts and historical adventure games. Fps is the most popular. And games that are promoted commercially just like politicians who are payed millions by (war and oil)corporations get the win. Its like 70% of dw fans picked zhao yun first in dw6, see some fancy colors and some "look at me" on the tv and you will buy it. And i have never seen a koei commercial(not saying they should) in my country that is. In general..trust me there have been studys how to get people to buy stuff in the commercial district, so manipulated you have been. *longs back to '89 when i was still playing on squarish flat box things donkey kong games that blurred black when you pressed the screen ;< |
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| Lord Crow | Apr 27 2008, 01:23 PM Post #6 |
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Orochi's Wrath
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Agree with all your points, Tesouken. I am not a FPS, but I believed that FPS are most of the time overrated like Halo3 and there are those claimed to be 'innovative' games like GTA series... which it is in its own right. Also people want to enjoy playing games in general and they don't want to be taught any history lesson in particular because history are commonly known as being boring and lame and old-fashioned. |
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| Nragemachine | Apr 27 2008, 01:28 PM Post #7 |
The Element of Rock
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You know, I've never met anyone who didn't like Koei games per say. More like they just never gave DW or SW a shot. They've heard of the games and know of them, but never really played them. Koei just doesn't market their product. The only way you can get into Koei games is by heresay, from your friends, or just blind luck. Koei doesn't reach out to the gamers like Guitar Hero or any of the other games, so it doesn't grab that many peoples attention. I know if my friends didn't introduce DW to me I would have not ever played any of Koei's games either. To quote Nobunaga, "It's just that simple." |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 01:32 PM Post #8 |
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Han's Unifier
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Alot of kids these days think only in terms of having fun, in my country kids generally drink their spleen in two and go out to loud disco's that play commercial music all night long, so if one experiences "fun" from that its not strange they end up buying games like Wow or halo, wich are both indeed way overrated commercial games comparable with a pie that looks crunchy on the outside but has kittens in it, young kittens who say mew alot. The game buisiness has a simple sum of "how to get people to buy our crap" Wich is; As little as possible replay value, as little as possible feedom, as little as possible thinking, as much as possible impulse and a cookpot full of rainbow. Koei games generally are based on the above on the contrary. (replay, freedom, thinking, little impulsive behavior unless you are zhao yun in dw6 and more authentic colors (rottk is a good example, wont see soldiers run a round in flashy leprechaun costumes there) Koei games thus are the more intellectual, and people who hate koei games are neanderthals and emotionally challenged people. |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 01:37 PM Post #9 |
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Han's Unifier
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The moment you give in to marketing tricks to promote your game, you end up giving the masses what they want thus reducing your esential qualities abandoning the strenght behind the genre. Same as in mmorpg shards, when you give the players what they want to attract them you end up having a broken shard, simply because players should come to you for what you got, not you to the mass-players for what they want or all games would become a wow/halo/cs combination involving weapons with a attack rating of a million and purple monkeys who shoot flying lightsabers out of their ears lets not forget those explode into crunks of coke. |
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| God-Like Phoenix | Apr 27 2008, 01:37 PM Post #10 |
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Mercenary General
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yeah, thats right, i know that because out here in country australia, the only games that are actually advertised are the ones that everyone knows, like Guitar Hero, or some of those that you know are just going to sell many millions, but when it comes to KOEI games, absolutely nothing, i have never seen an ad for any KOEI related games, or any games that are on the same basis, on tv, in the paper, or pretty much everything else, the only time ive seen it locally was in a magazine, whice was only a 1/4 ad for dw4xl or e, but other than that, nothing. Only a very select few friends from school are real fans of the DW series, but they dont really like the SW series for some reason, but other than that the only time my other friends have played or even heard about it is when i talk to them about it, or when we play it at my house, its sad, but its true that KOEI lately just hasnt put enough effort into the games as they should, if they want them to be critically accliamed, or make the top of the charts (unlikly with the games going around right now). |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 01:39 PM Post #11 |
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Han's Unifier
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DW6 would have been if only they had added collectibles and given everyone a mousou mode (and no clones) It almost seems like a sony conspiracy that koei rushed it. |
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| Nragemachine | Apr 27 2008, 01:49 PM Post #12 |
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The Element of Rock
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Thank you God-Like Phoenix, all of your points are true. Tetsuoken is right also, but I think that you guys are somewhat overanalyzing the situation. I think that the core of your opinions are correct. It is true that people nowadays are drawn to flash and gimmicks and hype. No one can dispute that. Koei games do get buried under all of that, but not just because it is not flashy and gimmicky itself. It isn't reaching people. Not many people are aware of it and how can you possibly like something that you don't know about? There are so many games out today that game companies have to put some effort into showing the people what their games are about! If they just make the games and then just sit back and do nothing then yeah not very many will be interested. The DW series is addicting. Anyone I know that has played it has loved it. I don't think that people don't like it, they just haven't tried it. |
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| Lord Crow | Apr 27 2008, 01:58 PM Post #13 |
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Orochi's Wrath
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I supposed analyzing the situation critically is better than just shallowly. (Not that I say that you don't do good analyze) And yeah, you are very correct that many games companies do not advertise their products. Unlike those commercialized and overrated WoW and Halo. They are more and more successful because they advertise. |
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| KOEI Warriors | Apr 27 2008, 02:26 PM Post #14 |
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I think... Well reviewers play a big role here. Asian reviewers said Musou games are good so everyone plays it. American reviewers said Warriors games stink and those who played it must have a low self-esteem (it's true I heard they said it from X-play) then the players don't want to try it. They're like being ordered... *sigh* Also it's because KOEI games are more based on the history, some people they don't know what is Three Kingdoms or Sengoku era so they just won't have the interest. >.< |
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| Lord Crow | Apr 27 2008, 02:35 PM Post #15 |
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Orochi's Wrath
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Now that you mentioned it, I remembered now that I read from a game magazine about DW6. It says kinda like playing as Chinese mindless butcher and just hacks through ranks of men and that it is not very creative. And so it gets low scores for the review as well... Also the history plays a major role here as well.... You can see that Age of Empires, Civilization, and Total War series are much well known than Koei's because those games are based largely on Europeans and Americans history which most Western will know better than Chinese or Japanese history that is so far away. Apart from we here, who likes Chinese and Japanese history, any other Western out there who care about Asian's history? NO! |
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| Nragemachine | Apr 27 2008, 03:08 PM Post #16 |
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The Element of Rock
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Well, the reviewers are very-highly critical here, but that is what they are paid to do. It is true that reviews have a large influence on what gamers are willing to play. Afer all, If I saw a game that got a dismal review I probably wouldn't make the effort to try it out either. They could use some improvement and are repetitive (all though most games are) and after the DW6 dissapointment, it will not shine a positive light on Koei's reputation. Koei needs to figure out what improvements need to be made and stop looking in the wrong places. Their future lies within the hands of their fans. That is why they should confide in and try to listen to their consuming audience. I know for a fact that the makers of Guitar Hero listen to their fans, because the game's staff is always in our forums and are interested in what we have to say. I think by not getting more connected to the consumer base, they are actually alienating their fans. Anyway, the reviews are not helping Koei's fame here, you are correct in pointing that out. Still, the only way we here in the U.S. get exposed to Koei's games is still by friends and word of mouth. I think if people gave the games a try they would enjoy it. |
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| Brizz | Apr 27 2008, 06:18 PM Post #17 |
First Lieutenant
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I agree with Nragemachine, after all I'm sure everyone goes online or elsewhere to check the ratings of a game before they play it as to not waste their money or their time. Even I wouldn't play a game or be more skeptical of a game if I constantly saw bad ratings for it, but luckily I started playing Koei games by luck so I didn't know of any ratings before hand. I know a friend who asks me why I like the DW/SW so much, it's so repetative and everytime they make a new game it's always the same. Mind you, she can only say this becuase she read the reviews for it online but never played it herself. It's basically brainwashing, not to mention Koei doesn't adverstise their products in the west too well as it is. I also believe that gamers who do try out the games and hate it is only becuase they believe that the games are too easy. Obviously, to play RPGs means you have a brain and playing DW/SW means that you have no gaming skills. D: I want them to play a stage of chaos mode and see what they think afterwards. I actually think you need more gaming skills to play these kinds of games, after all, it is "think on your feet" not like an RPG where "I can pause the game and look at the stragety guide." |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 06:43 PM Post #18 |
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Han's Unifier
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hah, you got that right. My younger brother doesnt like a game of dw or sw for more than 2 or 3 stages. My best friend thinks it gets old after one mousou mode... Both of them die within seconds on chaos. I remember my best friend trying to beat lu bu in dw6, he died within seconds. Then i took the joypad and killed lu bu within seconds instaed lol. Its like they dont know how to block and roll right, using mousous at the wrong times, or not using them at all when they are being hit by officers... its horrible to look at but then again its so much fun to have someone to play these games together with. Oh btw, i finally got my playstation 3 online so im hoping for a ps3-dw/sw that can be played online now hehehe. |
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| Bishamonten | Apr 27 2008, 08:08 PM Post #19 |
The Mouth of the South
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DW and SW are just such simple games, some people do not understand it, especially those who know nothing about the eras. And the folks at Koei are not helping themselves by not making any huge changes to the series. They need something BIG. |
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| Tesouken | Apr 27 2008, 10:23 PM Post #20 |
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Han's Unifier
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No they dont, they had the perfect recipe for a game with DW3, but they then changed the feel of the game more and more, and milked the fanbase by making empires and xtreme legends for every damn version of it. Instead of adding at least 20 new warriors per side, hell maybe even new sides to the game they changed the character models, changed the voices, and instead of making the nicest stages better (dw3 guan du and invasion of liubiao for instance) they changed them completely. Then instead of making weapons nicer, they kept making them look the exact same, and overpowered them instead of making them change the way you play..(why not make a ultimate weapon deflect arrows? or melt allied units ice status when touched with an attack...) Then they remove collecting items and weapons alltogether in 6... what kind of numbskull decided that? In Samurai warriors they first had a brilliant feudal setting with the whole samurai feel to it because there werent any rainbows and fantasy things around, that changed with part 2, and im not saying its crap but it does ruin the authentic atmosphere of it seeing a ishida mitsunari for instance in PINK... or honda tadakatsu looking like a cyborg... Its just way over the top... wich finally brings me back to the main complaint.. its so much candy....and slowly but soundly retreating from the historical sense of the game.. A good example is (thank god its in a single game however) warriors orochi, now there are gods being added in it by the tenfold, i wonder what is next.. there are alot of japanese gods... like susano-o and whatnot... its as if koei is thinking of becoming more and more kiddy-commercial in fear of not being famous enough... Koei changes that wich they should keep, and keeps the same that wich they should change, man i pray to the spirits of deceased samurai that koei will make samurai warriors 3 as good as part 1 again or i might never buy a koei game again
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| Lord Crow | Apr 27 2008, 10:45 PM Post #21 |
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Orochi's Wrath
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Hmmm? You believe that Warriors Orochi is just a fancy and candy-like game? Well, I supposed it is fancier than DW or SW that follows the history, but it allows Koei one thing that they can't really do with DW and SW, they can make unique storyline. Warriors Orochi have original storyline. I kinda see that one coming too, because I also think that keep making DW and SW would not really go anywhere, because it is the same thing over and over, but then again I played since DW3. Games have to be repetitive at some point, unless it's an innovative game that keeps changing its genre and game style every few seconds. It's just not right to claim that Koei's products are repetitive. Games are repetitive in nature. Even that overrated Halo3 that is so good is repetitive after half an hour or hour of game play. And yeah, like you said, Koei left a lot of things out of DW6 that makes it not good enough. |
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| Xalfrea | Apr 28 2008, 05:27 AM Post #22 |
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Organization XIII's Number XV
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I feel that the only reason why reviewers do what they do is because their audience demands it. X-Play for example remains popular because they constantly trash games that no one cares about, and what the audience of X-Play wants is for them to trash games. Remember the KOEI board meeting skit, and their review of DW5 when they constantly kept playing "I am Cao Pi"? Theres another view I have for these games; They are like 3D versions of beat-em-ups. Remember The Simpsons, TMNT, and Double Dragon? Now imagine those in 3D. |
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ORGANIZATION XIII Crimsondramon wins again. Thanks for the sig! BB Senshi Sangokuden kit status: 29 gundams, currently missing 7 Coming soon: New Super Mario Bros Wii review | |
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| Fayt | Apr 28 2008, 05:53 AM Post #23 |
Sakon, has left the topic.
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That one line is perfect, but I'll get back to that. I personally think it's very hard for KOEI to get the balance of satisfying both Asian and Western audiences; they want to try to expand and try new things to try inviting newer fans, while they want to keep producing the known titles to keep the current fans happy. They also want to be more creative with the Warriors games to break into western market more, but they do so at the expense of their loyal home fans in Asia etc who want to see the games as historically accurate as possible, even down to smaller points such as the naming of characters from the Japanese versions to English versions. As I quoted earlier, the future lies in the hands of the KOEI fans, yet we are some of the most contradictory fans in the gaming world. Some of us want newer games, such as Bladestorm, yet hardly any of us purchase it or give it recognition. How is KOEI supposed to take heart from that and continue to produce something new if most of us ignore it and just want DW6XL instead...even though we criticize them for milking us with such expansion packs? KOEI gets bashed for many reasons, consistency, repetitiveness, and lack of new games, yet it’s a vast majority of the KOEI fans that are contributing to the problem. We can blame Western reviewers all we want (which aren’t exactly helping admittedly) but they aren’t the problem, it’s the fans, we are a fickle bunch whether we like to admit it or not. |
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| Daosiying | Apr 28 2008, 06:26 AM Post #24 |
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Left General
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The funny thing is that no matter how many times the self proclaimed "hardcore" gamers whine about the musou games and question why they keep making the games, they fail to realize that there's still a lot of people who like these games and that the series does well financially in both the eastern and western markets. People don't just keep making games in one franchise if it doesn't make good money. That being said it's rather hypocritical that a good fraction of this anti-koei population seem to love their maddens and FPS games so much. Being just as repetitive as madden is really just an updated roster per game while FPS games generally don't do much beyond the others save for every once in a while. |
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| God-Like Phoenix | Apr 28 2008, 06:42 AM Post #25 |
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Mercenary General
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yep, thats sure as hell right, on both counts, people who dont like the games are probably far too narrow minded that they dont realise that other do like the games, and that also goes for every since game genre and title, you may not like it, but theres no need to slam it as there is probably that audience that actually does like it, and you must respect that. Its true that all games are repatative to some extent, but some games just have a longer time to go untill the feel repetative, this is affected by the story, the variety in game modes, how long it takes to finish a game, and other factors like that, and its just been shown that some games have just far more factors in their favour. |
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