| Welcome to KOEI Warriors (Forum). We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. As a member you will also have access the exclusive Members Only Section where you will be privvy to a wide range of KOEI Warriors Renders, OSTs and Videos. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free! Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features! |
| Role of Women in KOEI Games; What do you think? | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Jun 27 2008, 04:54 AM (4,008 Views) | |
| Dongzhou | Nov 27 2008, 09:02 AM Post #151 |
|
General
  ![]](http://209.85.122.85/static/1/pip_r.png)
|
1) He had two that were of any died, one died soon after Wu Zhang, one lived to see Shu fall and accompany Shan to Jin,. While the Qiao's and Yue Ying have arguably the same or little amount of info. 2) Dramarama? What exactly does that mean? As for reasons why, Cao Pi is a jerk who tried to kill Cao Hong, do we need more excuse?  No I agree a sudden dislike would be nonsense so think the decline of the relationship should take time. Why does it decline? Up to koei how they want to handle it as just plain dislike by Cao Pi is not good enough. Pi's attention was elsewhere, Zhen Ji may well resent that (well she did), if they want to do her falling for a more sympathetic ear in Cao Zhi/Cao then that would further destroy the relationship, the relationship between the two of them not helped by Ji becoming somewhat bitter and insubordinate. How does it go from there? If they don't want suicide but do something like exile where Zhen Ji is banished, that is fine, sad ending without death, I just think an ending where Ji loses Pi's love was a viable one somewhat shafted by the way they made her personality.3) Yeah and there was also never any woman fighting (well no, there were 2 historical, 1 novel who fought in battle but you know what I mean), think again your taking the "we want the personalities more historical" slightly too far. Nobody is asking koei to go so far as that, apart from those who actually object to woman in the games at all, and clearly most had lives after their husband. Why not allow them to fight then after? People had to fight on after losing father's, brothers, uncles, wives so why not husbands? I mean characters live on after they die, Ci, Sun Jian, Ce, Pang Tong, Cao Pi yet they manage to fit the individual story just fine, I don't think an actually alive Xa fighting after Zhou Yu's death is far-fetched idea if koei is able to do that. 4) Could you point me to anyone suggesting there should be a pregnant weepey woman for 24/7? Seriously, I have never ever seen such an idea, original but I agree with you it wouldn't work. For one, how the heck would Xa remain pregnant for the rest of the game?  Two, as sad as should understandably be, who would demand of her to cry the rest of the story?
Edited by Dongzhou, Nov 27 2008, 09:04 AM.
|
 |
 
|
| jamesbuc | Nov 27 2008, 03:23 PM Post #152 |
First Lieutenant
|
With the pregnant thing I was handing examples. I mean a HECK load of the stuff you suggested on Pg 8 is chaotically too much drama to put in. If this was an RPG or a Novel-Game then maybe but its an action game. |
| |
|
|
|
| Dongzhou | Nov 27 2008, 06:30 PM Post #153 |
|
General
|
An action game can have good stories and I find they are better for it. |
|
|
|
| jamesbuc | Nov 27 2008, 09:30 PM Post #154 |
|
First Lieutenant
|
Im not saying that Action games cannot have good stories however a lot of the ideas given would overstep the mark of when a story is too big for its boots. Besides, Koei has got many other male characters as well to deal with. It cant pool all its resources into the females. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Dongzhou | Nov 28 2008, 05:35 PM Post #155 |
|
General
|
I don't think I'll ever understand how that can be too big. They should improve the men as well, they have a lot of work to do but I do think their poor stories for females is a weak point and something they should look at if they ever make a DW7. |
|
|
|
| Manji | Nov 28 2008, 05:45 PM Post #156 |
delicious...
|
Well, when there's 30+ characters to deal with, all with their own story mode, it's a very large undertaking to address them all with unique stories and cut-scenes to flesh out their personalities. Most action games with "better" stories only focus on one individual, with a small cast of supporting characters. More on topic: To me, it's not that Koei creates poor female characters, I'm just never satisfied with how they're depicted in the stories.... it's usually just too damn predictable. I can't remember who, but someone commented that it's more or less the FEMALE GAMERS that the female characters are catered to, (especially Da/Xiao Qiao, Oichi). That's a very good point, because more often than not, it's the female characters who are targeted by MALE GAMERS when discussions about "cutting characters" are brought up. Edited by Manji, Nov 28 2008, 05:45 PM.
|
|
Ghetto Website for Koei Komics!  t h e n i g h t m a r e b e g i n s... | |
|
|
|
| GoW | Nov 30 2008, 08:05 PM Post #157 |
KOEI Warriors Unifier
|
Agreed. But I think her father is going to be playable in the next game, and that blade she wields now belonged to him. So my fear is that Ginchyo will become some whip weilding fem fatale. There is already a hint of it in her WO2 alternate costume showing more skin. Its the only one I refuse to play, it just doesn't fit her as the warrior woman she's supposed to be. Most would ask me "what about Zhu Rong?" To that I give you the fact that the Nanman are primative and live off the land. They have no need for fancy armor outside of Wu Tugu's troops. Though they did raise the sexuality on Zhu Rong from 4 to 5. |
| |
|
|
|
| Greenzaku | Dec 4 2008, 01:11 AM Post #158 |
Grilled fish and tequila
|
*off-topic* squeee...!!! Another Kenshin fan....*hugs**hugs**snuggles* I would love to see Ginchiyo in one of those fierce-looking masks that samurai used to wear under their helmets (minus the moustache probably, though fangs are a great replacement) I think it would actually do wonders for her portrayal as a serious fighter. In a way, bringing more war-like, savage reality in how the women are depicted can actually strengthen them. Since replicating how women were really like back then is not practical, we might appraoch the issue and ask, what would it be like if they were men instead, just more realistic fighters? Zhu Rong might be shown eating raw meat off bone or even biting her enemies...cannibalism could even be hinted at;) Yue Ying has as much potential as Ginchiyo in terms of armor. As an added bonus, she could be shown plotting with Zhuge Liang. Okuni unleashing a deadly, totally, serious curse on enemies using a ritual from her temple could be terrifying. There is potential to make Gracia toughen up to the point she becomes like a Christian Kenshin and preaches pre-maritial modesty and chastity in a 'guardian angel' role to Magoichi; with hair-tearing, hilariously frustrating consequences for him XD Da Qiao and Xiao Qiao, being little bags of mischief, could have a quest to steal something valuable, sacred, important, unique, containing the recipe to the end of the world etc...just to play with it. |
| Have you hugged an Uesugi daimyo today? | |
|
|
|
| foomin | Jan 11 2009, 07:41 PM Post #159 |
"i smell poop..."
|
this line of reasoning, Greenzaku's, i mean. leads to other ideas...return Noh to her undeniably better SW1 personality and mission to kill or not kill the "fool". bring back Oichi's tortured SW1 persona...my brother or my lover... introduce Empress Guo NuWang into DW6:XL and have Zhen Ji get a real storyline where she battles the husband and concubine to secure her place or not. employ Yue Ying and her contraptions for more than just a VS. mode. let the Qiao's fight it out with Cao Cao at the bird tower.... and yes, make Gracia harder and more powerful. LOL! i love the one about Okuni cursing folks....awesome. |
 best regards to the lovely Miho for making this banner, it's good to have friends in high places. | |
|
|
|
| Kittn | Jan 12 2009, 11:59 AM Post #160 |
Zhou Yu's Lap Cat
|
My opinion on this is probably not very popular, specially as I'm a girl. I'd prefer there not be any female characters. Especially not with the pewpy job Koei does with them. Not only is it insulting to the historical names these characters come attached to, but its also insulting to those that are espoused to them. I guess I'd rather see a more historically-based cast of characters, but if they MUST include females, please please PLEASE don't get the inspiration for them from cheerleaders and valley girls. Xiao Qiao's voice alone makes me break out in hives. >3 And the one female they actually did a decent job of in the past that I've experienced (SSX), they've girlied up more and more with each new game. Bleh. |
Mah Devious Arts | Xbox live Gamertag: TRUKITTN | Challenge Me! | |
|
|
|
| Jiahe | Jan 12 2009, 03:15 PM Post #161 |
Frickheads!
|
I have very little interest in the female characters and how they are portrayed in these games except for Sun Shang Xiang. She was the only character I felt did her role in the game very well to what was similar to her historically in some ways. All these other females with there petty little high school catfights with other women fighting over guys, protecting their guys who are being insulted or how pretty they are. I think these women are being portrayed in a very immature way which doesn't suit them at all. They are shown to be grown women yet they act like high school teenage girls ugh. |
| |
|
|
|
| Manji | Jan 14 2009, 03:26 AM Post #162 |
|
delicious...
|
That is a fairly accurate description, Jiahe, I'll give you that. The Qiao sisters in particular fit that description of immature, teeny-boppers (lol). At the same time, it is sorta cool that these female characters can even stand up for their husbands in the first place. At least, as far as I know, Koei women have never really been the "damsel in distress" type girls (aside from the Qiaos, I do believe there was a XL scenario in which they had to be rescued by Sun Ce and Zhou Yu from Dong Zhou, but even in that case, they did still fight). It's basically a lost cause though... I think Koei will always be inclined to create female characters who are in some way dependent on their husband or another man. 
|
|
Ghetto Website for Koei Komics! t h e n i g h t m a r e b e g i n s... | |
|
|
|
| Jsun | Jan 14 2009, 03:35 AM Post #163 |
Site Webmaster
|
They first portrayed that "teeny-boppers" like behavior in Destrega with the princess named Anjie. In fact, it's probably where that attitude and immaturity came from. KOEI also used the "damsel in distress" in Destrega as well. During the story mode, both times the two main female characters are fighting and lose and the male character has to come and help them. |
    | |
|
|
| Manji | Jan 14 2009, 03:52 AM Post #164 |
|
delicious...
|
That... is incredibly sexist. KOEI= chauvinistic PIGS! 
|
|
Ghetto Website for Koei Komics! t h e n i g h t m a r e b e g i n s... | |
|
|
|
| Jiahe | Jan 14 2009, 05:00 AM Post #165 |
|
Frickheads!
|
I think the problem is that KOEI uses the women like this as a way to entertain the fans by turning them into these high school drama girl cliches because people think it's funny. They just keep regurgitating the same roles for these women each series they do which gets boring after awhile. This is why I can't stand half of the female characters in these games. |
|
| |
|
|
|
| Erium Kross | Jan 14 2009, 09:36 AM Post #166 |
Soldier
|
I think the way they portray the women is wrong mostly due to the fact that I don't think any of these women killed thousands of people, let alone ever fought in any battle. Beauty to them in that era probably would be completely unattractive to any of us today. One time, someone told me that what I did in this game wasn't possible. I cried. For three days. Alone. |
|
Give me names and I'll give you blood. Seriously. | |
|
|
|
| sunshangxiang | Jan 14 2009, 10:28 PM Post #167 |
Soldier
|
I think women are not just used to entice the men but the women also. I know personaly as a girl I don't like playing games that have no female character in it. Ane they need to do something about the immodest clothing and such it is so urealistict and also offensive to female game players out there. i mean look at sun shang xiang she used to be so moodest and now look at her! She's just like the rest of them. She's not exactly portraying a tomboy in DW6 w/her skanky outfit and high pitched voice. It's not realistic. |
| Life sucks...deal with it! | |
|
|
|
| Celestial | Jan 28 2009, 08:00 PM Post #168 |
Glad to meet you. Lord Liu Bei.
|
I think that everyone tends to forget that most of these woman were put on the game because of their husbands. With the exception of some women (Zhen Ji, Sun Shang Xiang, Xing Cai, Ginchiyo, Ina, & Chan). |
 Walking at the side of the one you care about. Holding hands and sharing life together. | |
|
|
|
| Johnny | Jan 28 2009, 08:08 PM Post #169 |
General
|
My belief is women are often used to broaden their sells. If the roster a complete male roster then many women would not be interested in the game. Sex often sells, it's a fact. Another reason would be to show diversity. Though many tends to see the gaming industries as entirely sexist (while it may or may not be true) that fact is the majority of gamers are men, hardcore gamers who often portray themselves as characters are often attracted to the women in games. As for the women of KOEI, most of them unfortunatley are often portrayed as damsels and useless characters who serve only to humanize their otherwise cold husbands (Zhen Ji) or are just there for nor apparent reason (Gracia). While once in a while, KOEI does intorduce headstrong women who are able to take care of themselves and don't really rely on their husbands (Ina, Sun Shang Xiang, Ginchiyo Tachibana, and Noh) many of their damsels are nothing but pawns to further a story of their male heroes. Such as Oichi, Zhen Ji, and the Qiaos. While some women do actually run the show (Diao Chan) Not that the women are totally useless. I personally enjoy the inclusion of female characters in the game, it's way more fun that way. |
|
|
|
| foomin | Jan 28 2009, 08:29 PM Post #170 |
|
"i smell poop..."
|
Mitsuhide is Gracia's father, and she is easily the most famous Christian martyr in Japanese history. it's not Gracia that was useless, it was the path KOEI chose to take regarding her history. she would've/could've had interactions with nearly all the Oda/Toyotomi and Tokugawa characters as she was married to one of Ieyasu's foremost retainers, Tadaoki Hosokawa. |
|
best regards to the lovely Miho for making this banner, it's good to have friends in high places. | |
|
|
|
| Eni | Jan 28 2009, 08:42 PM Post #171 |
I've heard the monkey is an odd one, but the wife, she's a whole new level of crazy.
|
Isn't her death one of the pivotal things that made the people of the time to hate on Mitsunari pre-Sekigahara? |
|
Spoiler: click to toggle ~Familia~ | |
|
|
|
| Celestial | Jan 28 2009, 08:46 PM Post #172 |
|
Glad to meet you. Lord Liu Bei.
|
You are correct. Should I explain in further detail? |
|
Walking at the side of the one you care about. Holding hands and sharing life together. | |
|
|
|
| M.O.G. | Jan 28 2009, 08:47 PM Post #173 |
Michael on my right, and Raziel on my left
|
I like the role that alot of the women play in the games. Even if it is just as a character's wife or daughter or whatever. I liked No in SW1 for the simple fact that it was hard to tell whether or not she loved or hated Nobunaga. And the strange but intriguing relationship that she had with Mitsuhide was pretty nice too. As for DW Zhu Rong was always been cool to me. She acts almost completely independent of Meng Huo. She always decides to take action for herself rather than wait for him to do something right. And really like the rest of the females alot too. I may not like to play as all of them, but each adds there own bit of shine to the games to make it more interesting. |
 Thanks GLP, deepdrive, zenkokuku, G.O.W., Jsun, PoW, and nenemeia for the sigs and avatars. "This...is my Tashinkou Shinden: Gaou Sôryu Enrenshô" - Mitsuomi Takayanagi | |
|
|
|
| foomin | Jan 28 2009, 08:50 PM Post #174 |
|
"i smell poop..."
|
indeed, one of Ieyasu's best victories, Mitsunari went to Osaka castle to capture and kill the wives, children and concubines of the Tokugawa retainers, and managed to do just that to some extent. but that act turned Gracia into a martyr, due to Gracia's "fame", Hideyoshi's not-so-popular ban on Christianity and the underhanded-ness of Mitsunari's move, causing the Tokugawa supporters AND the common people to strengthen their dislike and suspicion of Mitsunari and his high-handed elitest ways. which in the end certainly led to his defeat. |
|
best regards to the lovely Miho for making this banner, it's good to have friends in high places. | |
|
|
|
| Celestial | Jan 28 2009, 08:59 PM Post #175 |
|
Glad to meet you. Lord Liu Bei.
|
The first DW game I bought was DW3 and the whole reason I bought it was because I wanted to play as Zhen Ji and later Sun Shang Xiang. But I'm the type of person that has to have a playable girl in order for me to play a game. |
|
Walking at the side of the one you care about. Holding hands and sharing life together. | |
|
|
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · KOEI Heroes · Next Topic » |
9:29 AM Nov 26
