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KOEI Warriors Lounge; Discuss what's on your mind.
Topic Started: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:16 am (5,969,155 Views)
Ryō Genken
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Disciplined Mind
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Well she is unexisting. I don't really care what will happened to her. No one rages me more than that one winner of blast poll. Dear those who votes her...or should say a FAN who vote her(because there's none or only one who draws her on twitter) you used cheating method like me..but you put all your method into that particular..thing. If you had put more effor into aomeone like Bianshi, i wouldnt even care since she's goddess. But no that winner. All in all you screw everything up.
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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Man the wind is really picking up. I scared. Someone hold me!
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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>Soliel's support with the main unit has been changed in the US and EU release of Fire Emblem Fates to remove language which could be seen as gay conversion therapy and date rape even to Japanese people
>lesbians and other queer women super happy
>some others complaining about "muh free speech" and "muh authorial intent"
>even though any changes likely better reflect the authorial intent to a Western audience
>even though it's doubtful the writer would object to a single support being changed a little bit even in the Japanese release

Honestly, the sooner the people in the latter group grow up and gain a conscience, the better. Especially when they realize how much they're trying to restrain others' speech 24/7... and likely never have and never will know what actual restriction of free speech is like.

I swear they're just like the Christians who for some reason honestly think that Christianity is under attack. They need to educate themselves and gain some ****ing perspective.
Edited by Uesugi Kenshin, Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:04 am.
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Ryō Genken
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Disciplined Mind
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Tumblr be like..
Tumblr: Yay Gay Marriage, only one though but it still ok. Good Job, Fire Emblem. Not everything is PERFECT but this is one step closer.
*Soleil dialogue*
Tumblr: You RUINED this. Now go back and redo it so that everything is PERFECT
*redo Soleil*
Tumblr: Good job, mission accomplished. Though The game is far from PERFECTION. Now all we need is all character trans- and bi or gay, so we had no need for those cis- and straight coupling.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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I'm not seeing the issue here.

Someone is critical of a product.
Producer makes changes to better appeal to a broader audience.

The issue is......???
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Ryō Genken
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Disciplined Mind
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Uesugi Kenshin
Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:58 am
I swear they're just like the Christians who for some reason honestly think that Christianity is under attack. They need to educate themselves and gain some ****ing perspective.
Really? Hmmm..
Uesugi Kenshin
Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:07 am
I'm not seeing the issue here.

Someone is critical of a product.
Producer makes changes to better appeal to a broader audience.

The issue is......???
By simply not M!KamuiXSoleil.
Edited by Ryō Genken, Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:09 am.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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M!Kamui X Soliel is still 100% possible dude. They just changed some of the language around to make it less anti-gay-seeming... which is inevitable anyway in any Japanese to English localization.


Like seriously.
rant
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DMRevolution
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Or don't buy said art if you don't like it.

But more importantly.

Posted Image
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Honestly if you don't like a product's message, just don't buy it :whistle:
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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Often time the best solution.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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So we should never criticize anything ever.
Okay then. Not like that's throttling speech or anything.

If you're going to play that game, if any of you ever express an opinion about something you can buy again, I'm going to point out you should just not buy what you're talking about.
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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*shrugs*

Wasn't going to buy it anyways. Not a fan of FE, really...
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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I wasn't talking to you I was talking to DMR and Cao. Sorry.
Edited by Uesugi Kenshin, Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:37 am.
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Uesugi Kenshin
Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:58 am
>Soliel's support with the main unit has been changed in the US and EU release of Fire Emblem Fates to remove language which could be seen as gay conversion therapy and date rape even to Japanese people
>lesbians and other queer women super happy
>some others complaining about "muh free speech" and "muh authorial intent"
>even though any changes likely better reflect the authorial intent to a Western audience
>even though it's doubtful the writer would object to a single support being changed a little bit even in the Japanese release

Honestly, the sooner the people in the latter group grow up and gain a conscience, the better. Especially when they realize how much they're trying to restrain others' speech 24/7... and likely never have and never will know what actual restriction of free speech is like.

I swear they're just like the Christians who for some reason honestly think that Christianity is under attack. They need to educate themselves and gain some ****ing perspective.
I both agree and disagree with you.

Here's where I agree with you (sort of). I'm not somebody who cares much about localization differences. I feel that it makes sense to change the dialogue in games in order to appeal to certain cultures. Sometimes it's worthwhile to avoid literal translations (in my opinion) even just to make the text itself make logical sense given a different language and context. Also, as a personal note, I actually couldn't care less that they changed this dialogue. It makes zero difference to me one way or another. I would buy the game if the dialogue was in or not because to me this is much ado about nothing. I actually don't care much about this entire controversy.

I disagree with you on the initial text itself being extremely offensive in a game series which already features over the top fantasy violence and questionable themes. I also disagree that stuff like this needs to be censored to pander to people. To me, the delineation between video games and real life is as clear as the difference between a fish and a goat. I can't get offended by something like Rance or some one-off support conversation because it's just fiction. It's fantasy. And there are real life problems that are much more serious that are worth getting offended over. Video games are just entertainment.

I also feel like you are making many unfounded assumptions about the population base which you are criticizing. What makes you think they want to stymie free speech elsewhere? What makes you think that they're not universally libertarian in their outlook on free speech (as some people, myself included, are)?
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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Oh, sorry, I thought I was thrown into that group. My vanity is showing *hides it under gratuitous amounts of makeup and hummus*
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tmma1869
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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"Soooooooooooooora, I can feel your love! It's making me strong!"

Sora's Garudamon, you totally amaze me because you're so hammy. :lol:
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DMRevolution
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Uesugi Kenshin
Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:33 am
So we should never criticize anything ever.
Okay then. Not like that's throttling speech or anything.

If you're going to play that game, if any of you ever express an opinion about something you can buy again, I'm going to point out you should just not buy what you're talking about.
If you're going to constantly criticize something then you just have to face the fact that said product isn't for you. I have no problem with criticizing but when a person pretty much goes on how said product isn't pandering to them, then they shouldn't buy it.
Also it's a game quit taking it so seriously, just play them and enjoy them alot of these things are optional content, you don't need to do them. People take games so seriously these days. Shikanosuke pretty much said it better than i could.
Edited by DMRevolution, Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:48 am.
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tmma1869
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Back then, games were taken as relaxation... :(

Now, people take games as serious business they get salty about them so easily.
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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I really need to stop watching these spoopy videos.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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I apologize. As I said the part in the spoilertags was a rant, I suppose the whole of what I said was a rant too. It wasn't really well thought out. I tend to get very passionate about this sort of thing as I really care about people a lot. I know I can seem harsh about some groups sometimes, but in the end, all I really want is for people to be happy and coexist without making other people feel marginalized or unimportant.

I don't think everyone in the group I mentioned is trying to stifle others' free speech. After all, I myself am all for free speech. I don't think that you think in the way I mentioned, Shika.

I'm specifically trying to talk about the people who act like any change in response to progressive critique is bad. To me, it really does seem like a sizable portion of them can't handle it when someone brings up something they disagree with. Perhaps "stifling free speech" is a bit much and a hypocritical choice of phrase. But it just seems altogether childish and stupid to me.

It just seems like whenever a game or a show does something positive for women or the LGBT community or another marginalized group, people come up with some BS excuse about how it's a ****ing travesty. "Oh they're pandering, pandering at all is bad". "Oh this is going against the artist's vision". "Free speech infringement". Even though, using this support as an example again, if they kept it in they'd ALSO be pandering to the crowd of men who think women who are lesbians just haven't me the right guy yet. Even though the artist's vision most likely was not to display an abusive relationship. Even though no free speech is being infringed as it's a company self-regulating.

Like... I know this is difficult for a lot of people to understand. I'll try my best to convey what I think. What I feel I know.

Even if it doesn't matter to you, representation does matter to a LOT of people. There are a lot of people who feel validated by the little things in life, including media. Hell, as an example, part of the reason Whoopi Goldberg decided to become an entertainer was because she saw Uhura on Star Trek as a kid and thought "hey, black women can be awesome too!" Fiction, though fiction, can very much influence reality!

People seeing themselves in the characters they see in media can help push them to do greater things as they no longer feel like they're an outcast. They can by the same coin feel invalidated. Seeing the Soleil support as it originally was would (and DID) partially add to many people's feelings that society as a whole thinks they are bad people, or that who they are is invalid. It could also send a message to people who think that lesbians or gay people in general are bad, or a message to men who think lesbians are just women who haven't found the right man, that their thoughts are valid and correct. Now, perhaps a work has a right to project that message... but I believe such a message is toxic and should be rightly criticized for it.

I know it's a common response, but, just to pre-empt it... I don't think it's proper to say people who are influenced by media are weak, either. Media influences everyone on some level. Some radically, some subtly. Advertisement wouldn't work at all if media couldn't influence and impart messages, for instance.

Anyway. Brought up representation (besides to counter your point about video games and reality being totally seperate) because a lot of people act like it's a bad reason to criticize something on or that it's a bad thing to include. That, to me, doesn't make any sense. If people can criticize entertainment for other reasons, why not how its characters are portrayed and what that says about the author's message about real people like them?

I don't think fantasy violence in a war setting that isn't painted in a positive light, and a supposedly romantic conversation that has overtones of gay conversion therapy and date rape that is treated in a positive manner are really comparable either. But that may be because of my individual morals. Obviously, I mean, violence is never good. But it's somewhat understandable, and never portrayed as a good thing. Yeah, the point of the game is to fight- but it never says "hey, beating up people is a good thing".

I don't think it strictly needed to be altered either. But it is a GOOD thing that it was.

And of course. This next part isn't a response to Shika, but to Old Man and Cao Liang.
Of course, if someone doesn't like a product, they don't have to buy it. But saying something like that to stifle a criticism about a product is akin to saying "don't say bad stuff about what I like or am okay with". Further, if I do buy a product or plan on doing so, I have every right to criticize it as a consumer of that product. Simply shutting up and only saying good things gets people nowhere.
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Ryō Genken
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Disciplined Mind
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Confession: Nah...i give up. Because i'm a hypocrite for saying something like Rance for disagreeing with Mew. Since i TOO take seriously about stuff like that albeit differently.

I used to nag KOEI endlessly to make Suo gain the sabaton weapon he got now. Even Xiaoqiao's twin fans too. Now if that isn't a nagging or serious business..well yeah it's just a weapon. But it really holds dear to me. I guess i'm outta here and forfeit since i'm being hypocrite if i said stuff like Rance to Mew.
So sorry Mew.
Edited by Ryō Genken, Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:10 am.
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Yeah like, is the next thing going to be a serious discussion on how Intelligent Systems should take PTSD more seriously rather than making such a lighthearted game about war?

One problem that I have with your views, Mew, is that you're associating real life issues with a fantasy world which operates under its own rules and assumptions. In my discipline we would call that a lack of empathy. There's no homosexual conversion camps in the world of Fire Emblem and date rape isn't actually happening even if the subtext seems apparent. The concept there is not analogous to what happens in real life. You have merely chosen to make that connection.

The other irony about getting offended regarding that support conversation is that this is unarguably the most LBG friendly Fire Emblem game to date. It features openly homosexual relationships which is rare even in Western games. The game itself acknowledges homosexuality as a thing and doesn't acknowledge it as an aberrant, campy thing ( to touch on the goofy conversation we've been having elsewhere) but as its own legitimate thing.

the tl;dr here is that it's just a game.

edit-I was actually posting at the same time you were so this is not a response to your most recent post. I'm still reading over that. I agree with you that the media isn't absolved from criticism just because it is fictional, but I do feel strongly that this is an overall minor quibble when there are much worse things happening in the world. Fire Emblem has some controversial aspects to it, but it always has. Earlier games had tons of incest subtext for example.
Edited by Rance, Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:21 am.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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Ryo. It's cool. As I said I just feel very passionately about this subject because I feel it ties intrinsically into how people treat one another as human beings. Media is a very powerful tool. As people say, the pen is mightier than the sword. I fully believe that, thusly, words can cause a lot more change than individual actions can.

Like... one person waking up one day and simply deciding to not use as much water does nothing overall. But if that person also tells others to join them, then real change can happen.

And sometimes all one can do to motivate change is by speaking out. If they don't have the luxury of time or knowhow to make their message a reality. Just staying quiet when you have something you feel is important or at least useful to say is not a good thing.

I also feel like being critical of a product that, overall, you like or might enjoy isn't a condemnation of the product as a whole. It just means certain parts you'd do differently. Even if it seems like all one does is complain about it, doesn't mean they don't like it. Could mean they see it has potential and don't want to give up on it.

I mean, you never really see feminists criticize, say, Dead or Alive X or Senran Kagura individually- if they come up, it's only to indicate a trend of what they perceive as objectification in games, rather than those individual products. Instead, they criticize games that they feel actually have potential. They criticize RPGs with boobplate armor or fighting games with skimpy outfits, or action games that are fun and have a large cast of characters whether playable or not, but for seemingly no reason relegate women to unimportant roles. They criticize the games they love or games they want to love. They don't really go after and try to ban games that are out and out meant to just be titillating.

I mean, some do, and vocally. But I disagree with that type. And on the whole, they don't really.
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Fūma
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The Dragon Has Returned
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TMMA1869
Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:52 am
Back then, games were taken as relaxation... :(

Now, people take games as serious business they get salty about them so easily.
I agree with you completely on this
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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Okay, done with creepy videos for the night. Going to go watch something funny.
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