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KOEI Warriors Lounge; Discuss what's on your mind.
Topic Started: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:16 am (5,965,379 Views)
MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Nuriko
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:25 am
as the old Saying goes The Son is free of the Father's sins and there's like 10 generations since then XD they are innocent people
We're all joking about Tokugawa and Sanada descendants I'm sure you know :hehe:
I mean, my mom's maiden name is Cao, so for diehard Shu fans, I'm..... :ph43r: :hehe:
Edited by MeowMeow, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:28 am.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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Lmao yeah brother I know XD I'd personally rather be a Cao than a Liu XD
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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MeowMeow
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:23 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroki_Sanada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asami_Sanada

Then we'll have to kill a baseball player and a seiyuu in revenge :lol:
Are these definitely descendants of the Sanada clan? Is the Sanada surname only held by one family?

Quote:
 
I mean, my mom's maiden name is Cao, so for diehard Shu fans, I'm.....


Same as the above point. There's more than one Cao family, even during the 3k. Cao Bao was probably not related to Cao Cao at all for instance.
Edited by Rance, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:31 am.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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Wei Trumps Shu,Wu Trumps Shu,Jin trumps Shu,Hell OTHERS trumps Shu
Actually Rance I think I read that 10% of the entire Population of modern China can be traced back to Cao Cao. Cao Cao was a freaking horndog
Edited by Nuriko, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:34 am.
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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I have this compulsion to draw Mercedes (chick in my avatar).

Alas, must hit the sack early. Got paperwork for new job to fill out tomorrow.
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Rance
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:30 am
MeowMeow
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:23 am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroki_Sanada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asami_Sanada

Then we'll have to kill a baseball player and a seiyuu in revenge :lol:
Are these definitely descendants of the Sanada clan? Is the Sanada surname only held by one family?

Quote:
 
I mean, my mom's maiden name is Cao, so for diehard Shu fans, I'm.....


Same as the above point. There's more than one Cao family, even during the 3k. Cao Bao was probably not related to Cao Cao at all for instance.
I don't think so. :lol: Its possible though :P Same with the Cao name, though yes it is literally the same name I'm going to guess technically no I'm not a Wei descendant :lol: though we used to joke about that in our family all the time :P

@ DG Really? Do you have a source on how 10% of China can be traced to Cao Cao? Thats pretty crazy if thats true. In which case, yes, then, I'm positive we are one of Cao Cao's descendants :XD
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Quote:
 
Actually Rance I think I read that 10% of the entire Population of modern China can be traced back to Cao Cao. Cao Cao was a freaking horndog


I doubt it personally, but he did definitely have a lot of kids.
I find it hilarious how that one modern Tokugawa head guy that you linked to felt compelled to write a whole apologia about the Edo period. I mean, historically I honestly agree with him that the Edo period was actually a pretty positive era of Japanese history. I just find it hilarious how he was so insensitive about his lineage that he felt the need to write a whole book defending it.
Edited by Rance, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:38 am.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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No I don't it was just something random and i read awhile ago idk if it's even true or not XD
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Rance
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:36 am
Quote:
 
Actually Rance I think I read that 10% of the entire Population of modern China can be traced back to Cao Cao. Cao Cao was a freaking horndog


I doubt it personally, but he did definitely have a lot of kids.
I find it hilarious how that one modern Tokugawa head guy that you linked to felt compelled to write a whole apologia about the Edo period. I mean, historically I honestly agree with him that the Edo period was actually a pretty positive era of Japanese history. I just find it hilarious how he was so insensitive about his lineage that he felt the need to write a whole book defending it.
Yeah, that guys' pretty touchy. He's estranged from his easygoing English-speaking translator son for crying out loud, for marrying a Vietnamese :XD In our modern, western viewpoint, he takes his aristocratic lineage far too seriously :P
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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You heard him Kami bring out the Scissors of Justice !
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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I highly doubt it personally. For one thing, I doubt that Cao Cao had THAT many kids. Secondly, I strongly suspect that many members of Cao (and Xiahou since they were related) royalty were killed first in purges by the Sima clan and second in the disorders of the War of Eight Princes/subsequent foreign invasion.
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Nuriko
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And here I was willing to give the Tokugawa descendants the benefit of a Doubt x.x disowning your own son SERIOUSLY?!
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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The Edo period wasn't too bad. Internal commerce flourished a lot. because Japan was not part of the East Asian geopolitical scene for two centuries, and the Qing had pacified Mongolia, East Asia as a whole went through 2 centuries of relative peace, the Qing at its height, Edo Japan just minding its own business. Kabuki and sushi (!!!!!!!!!) were invented (!!!!!!) and refined.

Yes, I understood that in the Meiji era, the Japanese were utterly shocked at how advanced the west was and they put the Edo era down as "backyard bumpkins", its understandable, but again it was so long ago already.

You could argue the Edo bakufu made it "Pax Asiaticus" from 1670 or so to 1839 :lol:
Nuriko
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:42 am
And here I was willing to give the Tokugawa descendants the benefit of a Doubt x.x disowning your own son SERIOUSLY?!
The son seems like a nice guy, he really does. His dad is pretty touchy though :lol:
Edited by MeowMeow, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:44 am.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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I'm off and On I've got 8 Roleplays going on at once
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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I like how seriously that guy takes his Tokugawa lineage.

I don't think the Edo era was as stagnant and monolithic as it is sometimes thought to be. The society became a lot more commercialized and urbanized and various philosophical schools flourished, especially pertaining to neo-Confucianism. Also, it is sometimes believed that Japan was completely shut off from the West and new ideas. That's actually not true. The Dutch were allowed to come to Deshima and they taught the Japanese some things about anatomy, medicine and other sciences.

Japan fell behind militarily but the same thing happened to everybody else in the world so it doesn't make the Edo Shogunate uniquely bad or backwards.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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One of which I'm roleplaying Nuriko n.n SO BEST
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Rance
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:47 am
I like how seriously that guy takes his Tokugawa lineage.

I don't think the Edo era was as stagnant and monolithic as it is sometimes thought to be. The society became a lot more commercialized and urbanized and various philosophical schools flourished, especially pertaining to neo-Confucianism. Also, it is sometimes believed that Japan was completely shut off from the West and new ideas. That's actually not true. The Dutch were allowed to come to Deshima and they taught the Japanese some things about anatomy, medicine and other sciences.

Japan fell behind militarily but the same thing happened to everybody else in the world so it doesn't make the Edo Shogunate uniquely bad or backwards.
The Edo was not stagnant at all. Kabuki became popular, sushi (!!!!!!!!) was "formally" invented :lol: and as you said there was a lot of literature, a lot of philosophy, a lot of domestic travelling and art was created in the Edo era. Well, Deshima was a relatively minor thing in the grand scheme of things, though they did have a small influence among the educated class.

The "Pax Asiaticus" I described above (circa 1670 to 1839) was a curse in disguise in a sense because when the western military came Asia was horribly exposed militarily due to complacency. That said, if you were born in 1680 Japan and died around 1760 or so you probably had a fairly peaceful life, which is always a plus (similar in Qing China in the same era)
Funny thing is Sushi is high end haute dining now kinda, but in the Edo period sushi was just a street snack for watching kabuki, no more no less :lol:
Edited by MeowMeow, Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:58 am.
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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Brother
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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It was relatively minor but it was still a thing. It existed and it did have some significance. It increased Japan's knowledge of various scientific topics. While it's true that information trickled in slowly, it still happened. That's a big difference from the (probably impossible) idea that Japan was stagnant and unchanging for hundreds of years. The view that the Edo Shogunate represented some kind of freeze in time basically is similar to Edward Said's description of "Orientalism." Westerners tended to think that Asia was stubbornly resistant to change which is just not true, at least not entirely.

Yeah I agree with you about the Pax Asiaticus. You could say similar things about the Qing dynasty. I guess the difference though is that the Qing was actually carrying on military campaigns in Central Asia. Additionally, they had to quash a lot more rebellions than the Tokugawa since the foreign origin of the Manchus bred some resentment.
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DMRevolution
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Rance
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:36 am
Quote:
 
Actually Rance I think I read that 10% of the entire Population of modern China can be traced back to Cao Cao. Cao Cao was a freaking horndog


I doubt it personally, but he did definitely have a lot of kids.
Isn't that Genghis Khan?
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Nuriko
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:59 am
Brother
Meow?

@ Rance

For the Qing, yes since they ruled a much larger and much more heterogenous territory than the Tokugawa ever did, yes they faced more rebellions, especially in their western provinces. However, these campaigns were after 1660 or so (why I put the date for "Pax Asiaticus" starting at 1670 or so) far away from China's heartland, and the Manchus were more tolerant of Han Chinese culture than the Yuan were, to the point where they ended up assimilating themselves (!!!!) :XD

Qing China had a mini-golden age, the very last flowering of "traditional" Chinese culture under Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong before events overtook them. Japan went through its own internal development and yes there was some knowledge from Deshima and its impossible for ANY place not to change in 200 years, no matter how isolated.

I'd say the Tokugawa founded Japan as they are today, serious and hard working, conscientious, polite. The Sengoku was known for having a bunch of rascally warlords (Nobunaga was seen as a rascal at the time), the politeness protocols of the Tokugawa, the tight social control and the strict discipline of the Tokugawa overtaking the gaudy ostentatiousness of Hideyoshi and Nobunaga
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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Hugs my brother
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Nuriko
Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:12 am
Hugs my brother
Meow ^_^

We should try and meet Tokugawa Iehiro-san one time, he seems like a cool and easygoing dude (and speaks good English because he went to school in NYC :lol: )
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Nuriko
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the perfect Family
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Why would I want to meet a Tokugawa ? XD
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MeowMeow
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YEAH BABY ;)
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Nuriko
Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:22 am
Why would I want to meet a Tokugawa ? XD
As you said, sons of the father don't go to the son, and this guy actually seems quite nice IRL. (Bonus: He speaks very good English)

I dunno. :lol: If you want to meet Cao Cao's "descendant" :lol: you can meet me and pretend I'm "it" :XD
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