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KOEI Warriors Lounge; Discuss what's on your mind.
Topic Started: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:16 am (5,974,447 Views)
Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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which makes her whole thing weird

at least she had a fun moveset, though
I want Gan Ning's daggers, but not on Jiang Qin. I can't see him with them.
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UpInMahBubble
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Who you calling a cute prince?
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Xu Sheng could get Gan Ning's daggers
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

Nagamasa was a fun character to use back when he came in SW2 for me.

Oichi I haven't really cared about.
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dancingswan
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You know what? Just make He Qi DW's Bayonetta. The walk, the fighting style, everything.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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I want He Qi to also have a deep voice, just to throw everyone off.

dresses like Rupaul, moves likes Bayonetta, talks like whoever has a deep voice
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

Listening to the 3DS Smash Bros full OST. Something else to listen to for the next few days or so.
Edited by LittleDragonZ, Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:08 pm.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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Smash Bros is this Friday...money hasnt come in yet :cry:
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Eni
BOOEH
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Grew to like Kojuro. Now go get a new haircut for SW5, pal.
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

I haven't got a 3DS. My life is in ruins.
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Benzod
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All Tai'd Up
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I want He Qi's personally to totally not match his design. Make him dead serious and warrior like with a fabulous design/moveset and have no one mention it what-so-ever.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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Benzod
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:11 pm
I want He Qi's personally to totally not match his design. Make him dead serious and warrior like with a fabulous design/moveset and have no one mention it what-so-ever.
Yeah, I was thinking that the other day.

Making him look like Zhang He, but act like Yu Jin or something. Would be amazing.
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

And remove SW Yoshimoto for no reason.
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Fräulein
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full offense
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chacha for sw5
rolling musou
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Benzod
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All Tai'd Up
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I played as Yoshimoto in WO3U a few days ago and enjoyed myself. Now I'm questioning reality.
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Eni
BOOEH
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SW4 Yoshimoto the best because of his musou finisher.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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Yoshimoto's awakening musou (whatever its called...) is one of my favorites
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Fräulein
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full offense
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:kemari: is adorable and perfect
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Meliel
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Sparks Falling Flat
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Mewshuji
Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:34 pm
If that gif was placed for the reason I think it was, I apologize Swan but I must address this.

Meliel
Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:06 pm
Your bias is showing and it's ridiculous.

I'll tell you what each of these women have over Naotora. They each make choices according to what they want to do with their lives, Naotora, according to word of the creators themselves, is forced and that she never actually makes a decision to do something for herself is in of itself, terrible characterization.

If you think just because these women have husbands that they are somehow a negative aspect to their character, you're wrong. Ginchiyo may be affected by Muneshige, but she still is proud and strong woman who stands for the Tachibana without wavering. Can't say the same for Naotora, who walks around talking about how embarrassed she is and is turned into a joke with everything she does.

Oichi CHOOSES to fight for love and she and Nagamasa being lovebirds is no big deal in the greater scale of things. Nagamasa is a man of honor, Oichi is a victim of fate and tries to fight against it ultimately choosing to die with Katsuie in the end instead of once again being a victim of the times. Totally different than Naotora, the girl who accepts her fate and does nothing to find strength in herself until she's shot in the face.

And Noh, my God, AT LEAST she has control of her sexuality and makes it a fact that she isn't afraid to use it as she pleases and isn't some pawn for Nobunaga or even her father. Whether she's been hurt by current games or not is irrelevant. She's still consistent with her character. Can't say the same for Naotora, walking around crying how embarrassed she is, unable to stand up for herself and is constantly a laughing stock because (her boobs). It's gross.

That you could be so ignorant of this and use these girls as a prompt to boost up Naotora is appalling. She's not a terrible character, but Naotora is by far one of the worst characters in Musou games. Her character as a whole is creepy and there's simply too much wrong to ignore it.

I'm sorry if I come off harsh but this is wrong. It is so wrong.


It isn't necessarily a bad characterization, unless you're calling people in reality who have trouble making decisions for themselves bad people or vapid or something, which I doubt. I have a lot of difficulty making decisions for myself as I'm constantly worried about what others think of me, so I allow others to make decisions for me. This is why I identify with her and feel she is a strong character- because she's realistic. I do wish that she'd be more proactive, but hey, here's the thing- she does go and fight. She doesn't turn her back on her responsibilities. Which, at times, is more than can be said of myself...

Ginchiyo is not "strong" and "proud" in SW3, she's ridiculously bull-headed and a dumbass, with Muneshige acting as the one who "sets her straight". Koei is basically saying a strong-willed woman cannot make decisions without the help of a man which is ridiculous. She's much the same in WO3. She's much better in Chronicles and Conquest, however. These games acknowledge their relationship but does not make either of them blithering idiots for the sake of it. I cannot speak on SW4 as I really only put much emphasis on spoiling myself on the Oda, Tokugawa, Unification and Hojo modes. But based on what I've read she has gotten better. I'm speaking as someone who LOVED Ginchiyo in SW2 and WO2. SW3 just... it made her ridiculous. I will not concede on this.

I will concede to your point with Oichi. However, I still find her character a boring and weak one as there is not much to her personality outside of "I love Nagamasa", save for in Chronicles (in which she's a bit of a prankster and has a silly side) and in Conquest (where there is no Nagamasa so they can't rely on that, and I rather enjoy her portrayal in that game.)

Nouhime, again, I cannot say I paid much attention to. In Conquest she wasn't up to much other than "mwahahaha I'm an evil gal", but I did appreciate the spin Chronicles put on her. I also understand that she hasn't much if anything to say but praise for Nobunaga in SW4. I do appreciate that she owns and embraces her sexuality, but... I don't know, I don't think that's enough to make her better than a character I personally identify with.

I should make clear I was not necessarily putting them down to boost Naotora. I was merely noting I feel there are weaker female characters, in my opinion and from my observations, in the series than Naotora. In an ideal world, I would like them all to be improved in some aspect, but the reality is Koei is far more likely to ditch whomever is least popular or put them on the "playable but gets no role" bus, so I admit I feel somewhat threatened by the number of characters I like (ESPECIALLY Ranmaru and Naotora) being hated by others. I want to continue to support the series but if they ditch the characters I like rather than improving or expounding upon them I don't think I can.

I should also make it clear I can acknowledge when characters I like get the **** end of the stick in terms of characterization. I adore Oichi from Sengoku Basara. However, she's awful in the first anime due to being reduced to a blithering, whining mess doing nothing of note to effect the plot other than reason for Nagamasa to go to war for the Oda. She is far better in the games and other adaptations. Similarly Kasuga is made incredibly clumsy, and Matsu seems more like support for Toshiie and Keiji than being Toshiie's partner and equal as she is in the games.

I apologize if I came off as harsh myself.

@Bubble: I do like some aspects of their relationship, but it's too much at the cost of what I liked about Ginchiyo in SW2, at least in SW3. It is markedly quite improved in Conquest and Chronicles, and likely SW4.
Eh, it doesn't bother me that there's people who dislike any of my favs.

But onto the post.

She appeals to you with her struggles and that's understandable, but realistic =/= strength. She isn't strong, because she can't make decisions for herself. Because she struggles to stand on her own. She can become strong once she conquers her weaknesses and turns her fears into strength.

I apologize, but there's no strength in flaws that make us suffer. Struggling to stand up for ourselves is hard. It hurts to feel nervous and have self doubt. These are traits we try to grow from. Would you feel happy being teased and treated like a joke for struggling with these traits?

What development I thought would be appropriate for Naotora would have been for her to stand up and be proud of leading the Ii clan. And then saying she would lead her own way, thus taking some power for herself and finally making a choice of her own.

That you say these things about Ginchiyo is kinda ironic given the treatment Naotora gets in the games. And if you played 3, I'm surprised you didn't notice her development from a hot head to someone a bit more human. Ginchiyo liked to seem tough but her growth in 3 was more about her learning to let go of that and be softer. I don't like her bickering with Muneshige either but that's but one aspect of her character.

I don't see Oichi as weak. She doesn't have to be as tough as Ginchiyo or Kai to still be a strong person. She goes through quite a lot and keeps pushing forward so I respect her for that.

Noh and Ranmaru are quite the same in characterization regarding Nobu so I don't understand how you can demean her without doing the same for Ranmaru, same for calling Oichi obsessed with Nagamasa. Ranmaru is very similar to both women so that baffles me that you dislike them on these girls but not Ran. Whether you identify with Noh or not, is irrelevant. Before calling out traits we dislike, we must be careful they don't belong on our other favs.

Well you're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. Naotora is beneath all 3 girls you mentioned earlier simply because she has no choice. Every character in these games has one, but not her. Even Kunoichi is above Naotora.
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tmma1869
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Why am I copying wrong tallies in the first place.

I'm such an idiot when it comes to HnH.
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UpInMahBubble
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Who you calling a cute prince?
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SW1 (and WO1/2) Kuno > everything
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dancingswan
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Maneater Fräulein
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:16 pm
chacha for sw5
rolling musou
Posted Image

#ConcertoOichiforSW
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Erminaz
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Emperor's Retainer
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UpInMahBubble
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:24 pm
SW1 (and WO1/2) Kuno > everything
100% second this

She shits on new Kuno's life.
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DMRevolution
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I want ChaCha to be SW1 Ichi with rolling
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dancingswan
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I like SW4 Kuno. :asia:
DMRevolution
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:25 pm
I want ChaCha to be SW1 Ichi with rolling
Day 1 buy.
Edited by dancingswan, Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:26 pm.
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Benzod
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All Tai'd Up
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Hat Kuno >>>>>>>>>>> Poncho Kuno
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