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KOEI Warriors Lounge; Discuss what's on your mind.
Topic Started: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:16 am (5,974,446 Views)
Fräulein
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full offense
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i want sw5 oichi to puff her cheeks when angry
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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Poncho >>>>>>>>> Kuno
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DMRevolution
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Kuno always been great. Never played SW3. It didn't happen.
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UpInMahBubble
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Who you calling a cute prince?
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Kuno will always be great regardless cause she's voiced by Kaori from SSX Tricky
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dancingswan
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I want Oichi in SW5 to come out of a nowhere and show off a snake to Nobunaga because it's cool.
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tmma1869
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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- Assumed both pairs of earphones has one phone broken
- Tried both on current phone's music player, realizes that nothing is actually broken

Must use YouTube on phone again
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

Benzod
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:16 pm
I played as Yoshimoto in WO3U a few days ago and enjoyed myself. Now I'm questioning reality.
Unlocking Sterk? This can be forgiven.
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Benzod
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All Tai'd Up
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New Kuno would be more acceptable if she at least had her old hair. The side ponytail thing is horrible.


Ugh. I sound like a Daqiao fan.

@LDZ: No, just curiosity. Unlocked Sterk a while back. And love him. Apart from his tiny nose.
Edited by Benzod, Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:31 pm.
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dancingswan
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I want a Concerto Musou. Can I please get a Concerto Musou?
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DMRevolution
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Let's discuss Kuno hairstyles, Ben.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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Kuno should get the twin fans
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tmma1869
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Haha, Erin is finally around.

Now she can back me up with healing Hanbei.
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

I read that as I want a Cucco Musou.
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dancingswan
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Sign this petition to get Kuno's hair back.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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if Daikyo did it, I bet it would work
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Meliel
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Sparks Falling Flat
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I like Kuno. She's not the nicest girl and she's always teasing and quite rude at times too. But that's great because not everyone needs to be a nice character.
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Fräulein
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full offense
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i love how concerto hideyoshi constantly sounds like he has something stuck in his throat
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dancingswan
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Finally KBS World, thank you.
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DMRevolution
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LittleDragonZ
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:32 pm
I read that as I want a Cucco Musou.
Posted Image
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dancingswan
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I like Concerto's Nagahide. He's funny in a weird way. Like when Hideyoshi forms his name and he wonders why Hideyoshi took a certain part of his name instead of another.
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

All I want for a Wii U now is Zelda Wii U. And a Super Mario Galaxy 3 confirmed.
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DMRevolution
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Hashiba... Nashiba
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dancingswan
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Concerto's Hanbei looks like Lee Pace.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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Meliel
Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:20 pm
Eh, it doesn't bother me that there's people who dislike any of my favs.

But onto the post.

She appeals to you with her struggles and that's understandable, but realistic =/= strength. She isn't strong, because she can't make decisions for herself. Because she struggles to stand on her own. She can become strong once she conquers her weaknesses and turns her fears into strength.

I apologize, but there's no strength in flaws that make us suffer. Struggling to stand up for ourselves is hard. It hurts to feel nervous and have self doubt. These are traits we try to grow from. Would you feel happy being teased and treated like a joke for struggling with these traits?

What development I thought would be appropriate for Naotora would have been for her to stand up and be proud of leading the Ii clan. And then saying she would lead her own way, thus taking some power for herself and finally making a choice of her own.

That you say these things about Ginchiyo is kinda ironic given the treatment Naotora gets in the games. And if you played 3, I'm surprised you didn't notice her development from a hot head to someone a bit more human. Ginchiyo liked to seem tough but her growth in 3 was more about her learning to let go of that and be softer. I don't like her bickering with Muneshige either but that's but one aspect of her character.

I don't see Oichi as weak. She doesn't have to be as tough as Ginchiyo or Kai to still be a strong person. She goes through quite a lot and keeps pushing forward so I respect her for that.

Noh and Ranmaru are quite the same in characterization regarding Nobu so I don't understand how you can demean her without doing the same for Ranmaru, same for calling Oichi obsessed with Nagamasa. Ranmaru is very similar to both women so that baffles me that you dislike them on these girls but not Ran. Whether you identify with Noh or not, is irrelevant. Before calling out traits we dislike, we must be careful they don't belong on our other favs.

Well you're entitled to your opinion, and so am I. Naotora is beneath all 3 girls you mentioned earlier simply because she has no choice. Every character in these games has one, but not her. Even Kunoichi is above Naotora.
I think perhaps there was something lost in the conversation. I'm not out to prove Naotora is strong as a character in the sense that she's emotionally strong, I'm merely out to prove that, as a character, she is thought out and realistic.

And technically most characters in such an era lack real choices. It's kill or be killed. Strength against strength, with occasional wisdom and trickery. Naotora's choices amount to staying in the castle while her men fight for her, leading the fight in spite of being scared to and not wanting to kill anyone, and marrying to pass on leadership. So she has choice- it's just nothing favorable. I think this is something you may have misunderstood. Many of the characters, at least clan leaders, see the times as a chance to grasp the future, for their own ends or for their people. Their subordinates sort of either follow their lords unquestioningly, to prove their worth or something of the like. Naotora is in a unique position, as the Ii for some time were an independent clan like the Matsudaira/Tokugawa. Initially they sided with the Imagawa, then joined as subordinates to the Tokugawa. Naotora, you see, is kinda... well she's pure. She has no desire to take advantage of others and realizes that she nor her clan possesses enough strength to help the people. So all she can really do is serve others.

She lacks choice. But that's because that's the hand fate played her clan in reality. I think that's what the developers meant- that she's a case of a clan head being between a rock and a hard place.

It would be great, and I'm pretty sure there IS a scene in the Tokugawa story where she indeed realizes Ieyasu is a good guy and chooses to serve him, rather than the floundering Ujizane. I can't confirm this however, I just remember reading something about it. I'll soon play the English version though so I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

I don't agree on SW3 Ginchiyo. As swan mentioned earlier, I saw her more as a development of the "tsundere" archetype. From a "tsun" at the start to an absolute "dere" at the end. She did have some agency in other's stories, but in Muneshige and her own story, I can only remember her lacking it. I would not mind her being less intelligent than Muneshige or hot-headed if it were not simply to appeal to that tsundere archetype. The message I get from Koei's portrayal of her in 3 is that the only way she can become caring for her husband is if she ditches any and all of her pride and willingness to fight and lead the clan. She can only love him if she ignores the best chance for the clan to survive and go back to hug and cry over him IN THE MIDDLE OF A BATTLE. Without doing any fighting herself.

The difference with Ranmaru is that, unlike with Nouhime, his dependence on Nobunaga not treated as a good thing. People (Gracia, Hideyoshi, Hanbei, Toshiie, even Nobunaga himself to an extent) are concerned about him, and actively try to get him to realize he's worth more than simply being Nobunaga's lap dog. He's flawed, and the game admits that. As far as I know, it does not do the same for Oichi or Nouhime- it treats their unwavering, unquestioning devotion as positive, while treating Ranmaru who never ever questions his lord as a poor misguided fool. Which, well, he is, but I love him for that.

I will admit this conversation has made me think a bit more about how Oichi has been actually portrayed. I keep forgetting that she does have some conflict about whether to support her brother or not, it's just I always remember that she unquestioningly follows Nagamasa and is like "yo sorry bro, Nagamasa's love is amazing!!!". It's more like "Sorry Aniki, but you're kinda doing bad things and I love my husband so..." So I suppose she does kind of question her faith in both of the major men in her life.

Nouhime though... she used to be scheming. She used to have goals. She loved Nobunaga but wanted to kill him all at the same time. I don't mind her as she is now per se but she used to be so much better. And again, hey, maybe SW4 DOES show her to be more than a sexy armcandy for him. I just don't know about it. I'll certainly try to see what she has to offer, as I want to like her.
Edited by Uesugi Kenshin, Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:54 pm.
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LittleDragonZ
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ReVeluv

I was looking forward to Hisahide in SW4. Before seeing his sluggish movement, that is. Hopefully he becomes tolerable when levelled?
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