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Should we prevent suicide attempts?
Topic Started: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:12 pm (2,018 Views)
Honda Civic
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Dark Witch
Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:20 am
Well, I think that we should try to stop people if we think it can be stopped. But I do think it is in some sense, to some degree, it it the person's fault- you can, in my maybe misinformed opinion, choose how you feel, how you react and what you let get to you. If trying to stop the suicide attempt puts others at stake, or other things at stake, I would say there's a place where you do have to draw the line. Not to sound heartless. D:
Your argument makes absolutely no sense and has no logical flow.

Obviously, suicide is completely the fault of the person committing it. Directly forced suicide would be murder, and that's a completely different concept. Moreover, anyone with basic physical and mental capabilities can choose how to act on his or her own emotional inclinations. A good example of this is sexual orientation; one cannot help which gender or genders he or she is attracted to, but he or she can choose whether or not to pursue relationships with a given gender or genders.

Of course, there is also the concept of planning versus spontaneity. Sometimes, suicides happen in the heat of the moment, and sometimes, people plan these things out well in advance. Again, that's just kind of obvious.

As for your comment about putting others in harm's way by attempting a suicide attempt, that is a rare and far fetched situation to consider. When such a bizarre situation comes up, there are trained professionals who handle that kind of thing, such as police officers, social workers, and so forth. That's the very last situation that the average Joe or Jane needs to try to rectify.
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yuesunsx
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Honda Civic
Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:28 am
Your argument makes absolutely no sense and has no logical flow.

Obviously, suicide is completely the fault of the person committing it. Directly forced suicide would be murder, and that's a completely different concept.
What an insensitive thing to say. :/ You never know how hard it is until you are in that position. if their state is severe enough, there comes a point where I don't think they are completely capable of making very sane decisions.
And I thought her statement made plenty of sense. she can express her opinions, as you can yours, but when you shoot hers down like that it's just really mean. :mellow:
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Honda Civic
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yuesunsx
Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:33 am
Honda Civic
Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:28 am
Your argument makes absolutely no sense and has no logical flow.

Obviously, suicide is completely the fault of the person committing it. Directly forced suicide would be murder, and that's a completely different concept.
What an insensitive thing to say. :/ You never know how hard it is until you are in that position. if their state is severe enough, there comes a point where I don't think they are completely capable of making very sane decisions.
And I thought her statement made plenty of sense. she can express her opinions, as you can yours, but when you shoot hers down like that it's just really mean. :mellow:
The concept of "having it hard" is a matter of a perception regarding cost-benefit. When one is in a "severe state" to the point of wanting suicide, assuming either an egoistic or fatalistic model, he or she perceives his or her reality to be so horrible that the benefits of suicide seem to outweigh the downsides. Regardless of whether or not that makes sense to people looking at the situation from the outside is meaningless to that person's perception at the initial onset.

As for your mention about sanity, sanity is in part a social construct that explains a desire and ability to follow society's norms. In other words, sanity is a relative term that is highly related to conformity. In part, we would say someone who wants to commit suicide is insane, because that violates what the majority of people consider to be normative. So when we question the sanity of someone who wishes to commit suicide, we really question that person's ability to hold to society's norms. When the norms are rejected, it usually happens with indifference or disgust.

So when a person considers the benefits of self-destruction to be higher than the benefits of self-preservation, that is considered to be highly deviant. Since that violation of social norms seems illogical to our society, we categorize it to be insane. In reality, it is simply that the potential suicide victim's logic processes differ from those of people who conform to society's norms. As such, the suicide still remains to be the fault of the one who commits it.

As for whether or not Dark Witch made any sense, her argument was heavily flawed in presentation and largely lacking substance. She strung together a bunch of statements that barely linked to one another, and I had to make a rebuttal based on individual assertions as opposed to a coherent thought. Moreover, many of the statements she made were largely obvious in nature. Furthermore, her post primarily conveyed an emotion as opposed to actually providing a logical argument. For these reasons, I commented that her argument was faulty.

Nowhere did I say that she had no right to express her opinion. What I did say was that her opinion was poorly expressed. So, if that still makes me mean, then I am mean, and I am not sorry.
Edited by Honda Civic, Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:12 am.
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DrewTheDude-Dono
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As for the argument for the statistics for the reasons of suicide, I find it kinda hard for anyone to really determine. Given that people have rather shifting mental states and that at times the suicide is irrational rather than well conceived makes it hard to really place a definite reason for every single suicide that occurs.

I mean, lets consider the people whom have had their suicide attempts prevented. There are those who are willing to throw away their lives for whatever reason that may be but when such an attempt is prevented, they are grateful for it. One may suggest the attempted suicide of said person occurred as a result of a mental state they were in rather than a definite reason for the action.

Of course, I think the egotistical model of suicide may be the most common nowadays. But that's kinda a big if on my part. Especially as I perceive it as one of the dumb generalizations that soceity has on such a concept. I think suicide is too complicated of a mental issue to really determine the cause for the majority rather than an individual.
Edited by DrewTheDude-Dono, Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:11 am.
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Honda Civic
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DrewTheDude-Dono
Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:07 am
As for the argument for the statistics for the reasons of suicide, I find it kinda hard for anyone to really determine. Given that people have rather shifting mental states and that at times the suicide is irrational rather than well conceived makes it hard to really place a definite reason for every single suicide that occurs.

I mean, lets consider the people whom have had their suicide attempts prevented. There are those who are willing to throw away their lives for whatever reason that may be but when such an attempt is prevented, they are grateful for it. One may suggest the attempted suicide of said person occurred as a result of a mental state they were in rather than a definite reason for the action.

Of course, I think the egotistical model of suicide may be the most common nowadays. But that's kinda a big if on my part. Especially as I perceive it as one of the dumb generalizations that soceity has on such a concept. I think suicide is too complicated of a mental issue to really determine the cause for the majority rather than an individual.
Well, one of the things I tried to stress in my first post (although the idea seemed to deteriorate over time) was that Durkheim's research, among the other theories I stated, were all simply models and individual researcher's perspectives. Although these researchers have drastically better methodology than simply spouting off baseless opinions, their research still only provides a small window into a much bigger concept. Furthermore, when theories of this kind are tested, a very good correlation is somewhere around 0.20, meaning that 20% of the dependent variable tested for is determined by the independent variable. Although 20% is good from a social scientist's standpoint, that still leaves 80%. A lot of theories have credibility with p = 0.15 or even 0.10.

Regardless, the application of said research is something that must be conducted at a micro level, and many different perspectives need to be considered.
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WuTiger123
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I am going to say no. you shouldnt, its the persons own life and they can do with it what they want.
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Tenkoshiro
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wu_tiger
Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:55 pm
I am going to say no. you shouldnt, its the persons own life and they can do with it what they want.
I know it's your opinion but has it ever occurred to you that maybe they are just being very selfish once you attempt to commit suicide? The cause is most probably be a problem and to run away from it, suicide is the answer. I think that suicide-rs only think of themselves and not of others, if they kill themselves, don't the think that someone'll miss them or cry for them at the very least? Well that's my perspective...
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Jsun
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wu_tiger
Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:55 pm
I am going to say no. you shouldnt, its the persons own life and they can do with it what they want.
What if that person was your own child or relative? Would you try to stop it then?
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Cereal Killer
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Under all circumstances I would say we should prevent suicide, it is the murder of an individual which if they continue to live they might see could have been a costly decision to take. People who commit suicide aren't entirely in their right minds and need help, and if they can't help themselves then that only leaves other people. The real problem doesnt come in this issue in my opinion but rather in the situation of how to tell whether someone you know could potentially commit suicide.
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scholar
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If someone wants to kill themselves who are we to stop them. to prevent someone from committing suicide is to forcibly deny one of their own right to control their body. Regardless of how they view the outcome more times than not they'll still kill themselves.
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