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Morality and Moral Issues; know your place
Topic Started: Tue May 5, 2009 3:10 am (1,347 Views)
AK049
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Wisdom and Virtue (seeker)
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I decided to post this topic to know the moral stances of the people around here.

I believe that morality comes from God and that we adopt the natural and divine laws to our contingent circumstances. Morals are absolute but contexts vary and our mind constantly improves in understanding such morals. :mellow:
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foomin
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the emperor is in.
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you DO have a thing about morality don't you? i fear we shall clash.

morality is set by the moral majority:mostly rich white conservative religious republicans. i want nothing to do with that. but then again i'm none of those things except white, but my BF is black. ;)

i believe that each person has a moral compass and should make individual decisions on what is right and wrong(with obvious limits) for themselves. no one needs to tell me how to to behave, if more people just followed a route of tolerance and setting good examples, there would be no necessity for such nonsense as morals. sexuality is eternally bound up with morality, anything against the majority must be bad/evil, i.e. homosexuality, sex before marriage, extramarital affairs, children out of wedlock, etc. if folks just minded their own business and tended their own gardens, a good bit of the hate and fear in the world would become irrelevant, if you teach your children to hate, they will hate. teach them to accept, they will love. morality starts with good breeding.
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Kankura Shishimaru
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First Lieutenant
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Morality - A general term of what's RIGHT.

Moral - Something to fight for? Something that connects to rightfulness?

I don't know much about those things...

But these things are PERSONAL. Not absolute. Sure to most it's an abstract universal idea. But if you dig deep , you'll understand that these ideals are greater then just mere one-track ideas. It's just...hard to explain what these things are. I guess it's just one of those things that even if I pull out a huge wall of text , you're still able to argue and counter my arguments.

....I'm trying way too hard to explain myself. Ugh.
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foomin
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the emperor is in.
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Kankura Shishimaru
Tue May 5, 2009 5:06 am
Morality - A general term of what's RIGHT.



i agree with this statement 100%. however, what's right for a man may not be right for a woman, what's right for a Muslim may not be right for a Christian, what's right will vary with the individual, and no one should allow "the Moral Imperative" to dictate that.

i believe that you and i are on the same page of the same book, we're just expressing ourselves differently-which is good.
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AK049
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Let us not confuse what is moral from what is normal.

Of course I agree that each culture has its standards and that each individual has his or her conscience.

Indeed, I must accept the fact that humanity is imperfect and cannot have a 100% accurate moral code.

However, they would all be superfluous if there is no absolute standard of good and evil. We would be stuck in a limbo of relativism and pluralism.

And that is the crisis that I worry about. :mellow:
Edited by AK049, Tue May 5, 2009 5:44 am.
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foomin
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the emperor is in.
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OH NO! let us not...this is all getting a bit pedantic. any chance you have a regular tone of voice you speak in?

don't lose sleep over your morality questions, the earth is going to continue to spin for quite awhile...no matter who the Baptists sleep with.(sorry, that was just plain mean).
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DrewTheDude-Dono
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VAN DAMME KNOWS NO WEAKNESS!
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I don't think it's possible for anyone to not have a sense of morality. Not even myself.
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AK049
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Everyone has that sense, I agree.

But whose sense is closer to what is good and true?

That bothers me very much... :sad:
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Godlikephoenix
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Everyone does have some sense of morality, the thing that differs from person to person is that some people see things morally good or bad differently to others, and there are also those that just choose to ignore morality a lot of the time, just not really giving a sh!t.

There is no black and white code of morality that can span across the entire globe, as some of you have said already, it differs from person to person, and only the induvidual can truly determine for themselves what is morally good or bad, it just gets influenced a lot by by other sources (eg. media, pop culture, friends and family, etc)
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AK049
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But like I said, not all ways can be valid. For example, some may like vegetables and some may not (like me), but in reality, the vegetable's flavor in itself is the same. The only thing that differs is the way we perceive the taste.

I understand that there are many shades of gray, but they do not discount the black and the white.

What I am looking for is the measure beyond our imperfect choices and perspectives, the good, true, and beautiful in itself. :mellow:
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foomin
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the emperor is in.
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that's bordering on nonsense. as GLP, Kankura and i have all said, with something as amorphous and mutable as morality, there IS no black and white. what's good to you might be hideous to me, what's beautiful to GLP may not be my thing. morality, by it's nature, is abstract. i think i'm done here, since there appears to be no satisfactory answer forthcoming for AK049.
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DrewTheDude-Dono
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VAN DAMME KNOWS NO WEAKNESS!
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foomin
Tue May 5, 2009 4:30 pm
that's bordering on nonsense. as GLP, Kankura and i have all said, with something as amorphous and mutable as morality, there IS no black and white. what's good to you might be hideous to me, what's beautiful to GLP may not be my thing. morality, by it's nature, is abstract. i think i'm done here, since there appears to be no satisfactory answer forthcoming for AK049.
From what I can tell, it's impossible to convince him of anything. His sense of logic is astoundingly ridiculous, too.

As far as I'm concerned, this topic is pretty much a waste of time if he can't bring his head around that simple concept.
Edited by DrewTheDude-Dono, Tue May 5, 2009 5:59 pm.
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AK049
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Let us be careful not to be personal here...
My intention for bringing up this topic is to discuss morality and check each and every presupposition. Instead of declaring presuppositions again and again, I suggest that we prove them using more fundamental principles. Let us be objective and not base things on our subjective perspectives. What's so illogical about that?

There are a few inquiries that bother me still:

By saying that morality by nature is abstract, what is the abstract nature of morality?
What makes one way better than the other, which leads to the question: What makes any way viable?
Logic states that contradictories cannot be both true. Pro-abortion and anti-abortion stances cannot be both true to the abstract nature of morality. Now I ask, which moral system is closest to the truth?

I came here as an inquirer and searcher. :mellow:
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Burning Skulls
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Most of your questions are impossible to answer since they are all opinion. Everything involving morals is opinion.

I think, like most people have said, its the sense of right or wrong that everyone has whether or not those senses are different or the same.
I think those are all based on how you are raised and who/what you interact with.

But really there isn't much to add to this topic like the others. :/
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AK049
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Just because there are so many opinions concerning morals does not mean that everything is a matter of opinion.

I merely wonder whether one's sense of right or wrong is right or wrong...
Existence is not the same as perception of existence. :mellow:
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Godlikephoenix
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AK049
Wed May 6, 2009 5:15 am
Just because there are so many opinions concerning morals does not mean that everything is a matter of opinion.

I merely wonder whether one's sense of right or wrong is right or wrong...
Existence is not the same as perception of existence. :mellow:
But the thing is, the whole matter of moraility and what determines right or wrong, it is all a matter of opinion, perspective and interpretation, no matter which way you try to look at it, that is all it comes down to, thats it...nothing else.

Its not just as simple as looking at it, and comparing it to a set of rules as to what is moral or not, because people are going to interpret absolutely everything in different ways, even the slightest of things can have many interpretations, its just the way mankind works.
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AK049
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I understand that situation. I can see that the mind of mankind is so limited and varied. I don't want to stifle personal freedom or anything, but I need to see what lies beyond the supermarket of opinions, the moral beyond the normal.

I hope you get my point right. :mellow:
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French Overlord
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AK049
Wed May 6, 2009 11:29 am
I understand that situation. I can see that the mind of mankind is so limited and varied. I don't want to stifle personal freedom or anything, but I need to see what lies beyond the supermarket of opinions, the moral beyond the normal.

I hope you get my point right. :mellow:
you sound like Zhang Jiao :mellow: and like the other said since it's on opinion you'll have million of answer so your question cannot be answer for the most of it

@mod: shouldnt it be lock?
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Godlikephoenix
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AK049
Wed May 6, 2009 11:29 am
I understand that situation. I can see that the mind of mankind is so limited and varied. I don't want to stifle personal freedom or anything, but I need to see what lies beyond the supermarket of opinions, the moral beyond the normal.

I hope you get my point right. :mellow:
Yes, I do understand the point you are trying to make, but the thing is, it is still impossible to do so, its impossible to find that answer that you're trying to find, there's no chance of finding it.

Humans have that mind which you described as "limited and varied", this also applys to your mind, my mind, absolutely everyone's mind. That means trying to find these kinds of answers is just completely beyond the limitations of the human brain...or something like that ^_^
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AK049
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Does that mean, then, that we would be stuck with this condition until the time God clearly decides to settle all things?

I suppose it can't be helped. But I'll continue to find the answers so long as I still live... :sad:

Anyway, I have this theoretical moral dilemma which I would like to share:

Suppose if a lone practitioner of a rich heritage is disliked by his neighbors because of his eccentric (but morally neutral) customs, is he obliged to keep his timeless tradition or should he go with the flow? :unsure: :o
Edited by AK049, Wed May 6, 2009 12:54 pm.
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Kankura Shishimaru
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If the customs go against the law, making loud noises in the middle of the night or simply be prancing around naked , then yes.

If not, no.

If wants were fishes we would be drowned in fish.

I like other cultures. But if they just are against the law , I'm not with it. Then again, most people are like that. They just are scared of difference I presume? Now I digress. I answered your situation, hopefully making a true strive in this thread.
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Ganheim
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We're drowning in information and starving for knowledge
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God-Like Phoenix
Wed May 6, 2009 12:22 pm
Yes, I do understand the point you are trying to make, but the thing is, it is still impossible to do so, its impossible to find that answer that you're trying to find, there's no chance of finding it.
If I may quote Arthur C Clarke: "The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible." It may be impossible to come to an absolute, universal understanding of a fact. That doesn't mean there isn't a meaningful, widely-applicable answer.

foomin
 
morality is set by the moral majority:mostly rich white conservative religious republicans.
Yes, it's true that there will always be humans who deviate from the norm for whatever reason, so no matter what social mores you have there will always be some that refuse to abide by some or all of them. However, think about human nature: there's a general consensus and a few that always struggle against the common. If I may propose it this way: everybody lies, but most people know that lying is wrong and to be avoided.

Kankura Shishimaru
 
But these things are PERSONAL. Not absolute.
I also want to point out that "murder is wrong" is not a "rich white conservative religious republican" trait. Bengalese Buddhist ascetics who have never seen a westerner before will still tell you that murder is wrong. The widespread, near-universal acceptance of these creeds/beliefs implies to me that there is at least an element of universal human moral traits. The question of whether you want to argue that these derive from a God or whether they exist as a sort of imprint in genetic programming then follows, and I have no answer for that.

@DTDD: Let's not start throwing around attacks, sometimes the purpose of a debate is not to change the mind of your opposition but merely to increase your understanding (and maybe conviction) of your own stance.

AK-49
 
Pro-abortion and anti-abortion stances cannot be both true to the abstract nature of morality. Now I ask, which moral system is closest to the truth?
I don't think that this has a blanket answer, but not because there is one: there are multiple elements to think about. The same as "killing is wrong", that's not a universal moral truth in specific circumstances: it would be a greater moral wrong to let 50 people die a painful death than to kill one man, hence in that scenario it would be the moral right to kill one man.

God-Like Phoenix
 
people are going to interpret absolutely everything in different ways
Put an apple before Smith, Fritz, and a computer-camera. The computer will say "the color is 555 nanometers", Smith might say the color is green, Fritz might say it's more yellow to his eyes. The fact that one person doesn't perceive things the same way as us doesn't mean there isn't an objectively certain fact. (And yes, I recognize that morality is not something that can be easily measured by a computer and quantitatively evaluated.)

I'm not trying to attack your position, I'm just trying to encourage as many people as possible to consider alternative perspectives.
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DrewTheDude-Dono
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AK049
Wed May 6, 2009 3:33 am
Let us be careful not to be personal here...
My intention for bringing up this topic is to discuss morality and check each and every presupposition. Instead of declaring presuppositions again and again, I suggest that we prove them using more fundamental principles. Let us be objective and not base things on our subjective perspectives. What's so illogical about that?

There are a few inquiries that bother me still:

By saying that morality by nature is abstract, what is the abstract nature of morality?
What makes one way better than the other, which leads to the question: What makes any way viable?
Logic states that contradictories cannot be both true. Pro-abortion and anti-abortion stances cannot be both true to the abstract nature of morality. Now I ask, which moral system is closest to the truth?

I came here as an inquirer and searcher. :mellow:
What's illogical about it is that there's no objective nature regarding morality. Any sort of debate or discussion about "what's morally right" is pointless as far as I'm concerned.

It's not hard for anyone to understand that morality is subjective, and any sort of factual nature regarding it beyond that is stupid.
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Ganheim
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DrewTheDude-Dono
Wed May 6, 2009 8:07 pm
What's illogical about it is that there's no objective nature regarding morality. Any sort of debate or discussion about "what's morally right" is pointless as far as I'm concerned.
So...if you have nothing constructive to add, why post at all? Sometimes people just want to speculate on something they aren't sure about just to check it out. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, and it's not like speculation is going to hurt you.
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DrewTheDude-Dono
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VAN DAMME KNOWS NO WEAKNESS!
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But then I have freedom to say how dumb and pointless the "speculation" is.
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