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Sengoku BASARA 3 (in NA: SB Samurai Heroes); Out in 2010 - PS3&Wii Multi!
Topic Started: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:46 pm (399,268 Views)
eklineage
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The girl gunner will have a one sided love with Kasuga. ;)
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~in3vitableTIMING~
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:o ok WOOOW what the hell is up with the Sengoku Musou thread, everyone seems to be really pissed off.

@ChibiGingi: dude you really need to chill out if your pissed of because of koei half A$$ed efforts thats kinda your problem, just don't take it out on us Basara fans and please don't get me wrong i was a huge fan of mUSOU one of the biggest but my work and future career is all to do with games and koei have done wrong by their fans (and no i'm not talking about the wii) its the game itself porting it from the ps2, cutting characters and stories so they don't have to create events and cutscenes same old movesets and the animations ARE sloppy compare to DW and SENGOKU BASARA.

Even speaking to people in my lecture who study game design and computer animation have said koei games always remain the same and always produce "lack of effort" when releasing a new title and me being a koei fan it kinda hurt but i could see the truth in their words KOEI ARE LAZY and Mr.k cut the Oda from SB3 for a very good reason and mark my words THIS IS CAPCOM not koei cutting characters isn't a problem SB3 is going to be a Fantastic title

And I have to agree with what SM fans say its not about the graphics but please REMEMBER SM is heavily based on realism unlike SB you can't take the two elements out of a game it makes it extremely weak and it proves koei has been lazy in a big way so the next time SM fans want to be closed minded.... THINK! games are ment to be fun but laziness IS NOT REWARDED (in my book anyway)

sorry i'm bringing it up in the Basara forum but I've always been playing a hole range of games from different decades and wanting to get into the industry it really gets under my skin when people suppress others opinions or are so close minded

SENGOKU BASARA ROCKS (I hope koei can redeem themselfs with fist of the north star... I really do!)
Edited by ~in3vitableTIMING~, Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:51 pm.
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Ultimate Legend
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~in3vitableTIMING~
Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 pm
cutting characters and stories so they don't have to create events and cutscenes same old movesets and the animations ARE sloppy compare to DW

:rolleyes: I disagree there. I always found the SW series to be better than the DW series. If it's not broken, don't fix it. Look what happened to DW6.

Quote:
 
Even speaking to people in my lecture who study game design and computer animation have said koei games always remain the same and always produce "lack of effort" when releasing a new title and me being a koei fan it kinda hurt but i could see the truth in their words KOEI ARE LAZY and Mr.k cut the Oda from SB3 for a very good reason and mark my words THIS IS CAPCOM not koei cutting characters isn't a problem SB3 is going to be a Fantastic title

This just makes you sound like a SB fanboy. Going by your logic, Capcom is lazy because they're cutting characters, and using the same old system with some upgrades. They didn't just cut the Oda either. While I'll agree that Chibi may have overreacted, don't go bashing Koei when, going by what you're saying, Capcom is doing the same thing.

Quote:
 
And I have to agree with what SM fans say its not about the graphics but please REMEMBER SM is heavily based on realism unlike SB you can't take the two elements out of a game it makes it extremely weak and it proves koei has been lazy in a big way so the next time SM fans want to be closed minded.... THINK! games are ment to be fun but laziness IS NOT REWARDED (in my book anyway)

What does that have to do with graphics? Your logic makes no sense. ;)
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Claus
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Stop. Right . THERE! :hmmm:

Seriously, both of you, everyone just STOP! Stop the SB/SW comparisons, stop arguing stop everything.

We all know Chibi overreacted, i was and still am pissed off at what she said but we should at least make an effort to be more mature than her and not retaliate and not argue amongst each other, so i suggest you both edit and delete your posts and move on.


Anyway, i'm glad that we finally get to know who 'She' is, i really can't wait, who ever it is i'm sure she will be a fun character.


But wait, WTF Kobayashi? Your logic makes no sense. >.< What i think he meant by that Moto/Mouri surname thing, is that he didn't want to add successors to clans, so there would be two daiymos of the same clan running around (it still doesn't make much sense because Nobuyuki doesn't follow that rule at all since he isn't a Daiymo and wouldn't fight with with Yukimura, but whatever, he wont be in, i gotta move on from that.

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HokutoNoBen
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Xanxus
Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:04 am
But wait, WTF Kobayashi? Your logic makes no sense. >.<
Actually, it does, if you think from a decidedly broader scope.

I mean, as much as I would like to see some of the successors/descendants of some of the various Daimyo pop up, there is one big thing to consider...

"Would such successors really stand to be received as well as their progenitors?"

This is a fundamental aspect that has been a "hit-or-miss" thing within various video games. And time after time, it's proven to be more "misses" than anything else.

Again, I bring up the whole "Street Fighter 3" thing. For that game series, Capcom tried to do a lot of "new age" experimentation, replacing a good deal of characters from the original SF2 generation with decidedly "lamer" replacements that couldn't hope to live up to the originals' legacies. By and large, the reason why the SF3 series was such a commercial flop when they were first released close to a decade ago, was because these new characters didn't sit well with the fans.

And I think that's the basic thing Koba is doing more to skate around with SB3 too. Why go with Terumoto, when Motonari has already built up a sizable fan base that is guaranteed to be pleased upon seeing him again? And why bother putting in Terumoto in at all, when you could be giving representation to other clans, instead?

By and large, I think it's safe to say that the Maeda bunch are destined to be a special, and mutually exclusive case in the BASARA-verse, where they have more than one rep from their clan. Honestly, I have no problem with that much, as it just gives the BASARA series more of a chance to have a diverse roster in the process.

Hey, "Fighting game-esque" logic for this series has worked to great effect thus far, so why not? :hehe:


Any way...I like that "cover". It's some what "Boy Band-ish", but barring us getting yet another beautiful Tsuchi cover, it works, certainly.
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Claus
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Well, true, his [b logic[/b] makes sense in a certain perspective, but his wording and example is terrible.

Also, adding Nobuyuki wouldn't defer from Yukimura at all, the connections between the two doesn't even need to be that big of a deal, so wiritng off every character with the same last name as a PC is just stupid. Nobuyuki again, is my prime example, he would be nothing like Yukimura and wouldn't even fight on the same side as him, he wouldn't be a duplicate and would replace no-one.

So, Kobayashi has made sense, and no sense at all, all in 20 words.... NEW RECORD!
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DoctorVancouver
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Manta Punk
Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:10 pm
BlackKite
Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:06 pm
An ad poster found at Gangan (?) magazine.
Posted Image
For some reason I feel like all of them have become one year younger. wwww
I'm getting box art vibes from this, but I didn't think Ieyasu was that tall :ph43r:
I was thinking the same thing, the shot screams box art. I'm looking forward to the addition of more female characters aswell, it's always good to have variety. I'm really starting to look forward to the reveals.
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HokutoNoBen
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Xanxus
Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:12 am
Well, true, his [b logic[/b] makes sense in a certain perspective, but his wording and example is terrible.

Also, adding Nobuyuki wouldn't defer from Yukimura at all, the connections between the two doesn't even need to be that big of a deal, so wiritng off every character with the same last name as a PC is just stupid. Nobuyuki again, is my prime example, he would be nothing like Yukimura and wouldn't even fight on the same side as him, he wouldn't be a duplicate and would replace no-one.
You could say the same for a lot of possible characters. For example, adding in either Hideyoshi's, Hanbei's, Kenshin's or Shingen's heirs would likely equate with possibilities for a number of brand new characters, who could possibly have no links to their predecessors/relatives/adopted fathers beyond a shared last name.

But again, in light of how a number of the various "camps" have a number of representatives already, I say, let's prioritize, and make sure we have as much of a well-rounded roster, that represents as much of the various camps that made up the Jidai, as logically feasible, eh?

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ChrisX
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Yes, maybe with more female characters, we could prevent something like the one incident that made SBX a mess to happen... loke test filled by fangirls who only play for their yaoi pairs.

****ers...
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Nine Demons Yoshitaka
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I agree with Ben, there are so many clans that deserve to be represented after all...

IMHO if there's someone who'd deserve to be exempted by this rule, that's Toyotomi Hideyori. His historical importance was pretty big, and it'd be easy for him not to overlap Hideyoshi's role in the games...


Related news: I read in 2ch that lately Kawakami Tomoko, Itsuki's VA, has recovered from some kind of illness (?) and has gone back to work.

Well, of course congratulations to her, but I wonder if this will impact on Itsuki's presence in SB3? Since Shiratori wrote about his SB3 role months ago, it's possible that voice recordings are well underway...right?


Maybe because I like the Ikki (historically too), it'd be kinda sad for Itsuki to be left out of the game...among these dark, serious characters we need a completely bright and cheerful one, don't we?


Besides I liked the little girl...and her standing animation...


/no pedo
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~in3vitableTIMING~
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Master of musou - you have READ a word I've written at all?

Fact: I stated that DW6 and SB "ANIMATIONS" are better I DID NOT say they were better games

Fact: Yes what was said in my lecture was a matter of opinion but was based on truth when comparing basic construction of a project title.

and last FANBOY... Did I not say I did like koei games and the fact That I stated I hope they bring themselfs back with Fist of the north star?, ok I don't mean to be blunt but are you blind have you read anything in my last post because I really doubt you did dude...
and the Ieyasu vid please take note its also on the WII!! the animations of characters the concept the gamplay is on wii as well
... I rest my case

@Xanxus: sorry I don't mean to keep on, I just hate IGNORANCE, i'm merly just trying to state the obvious even if others would condem that to be my lonesome opinion.

@HokutoNoBen: Thats actually a good idea because some characters like yoshihiro, motonari etc need at least one allie it kinda makes it unfair if the existing teams get a boost of character(s), but saying all this when would be the right time to widen team rosters or add new ones? (when everyone has a dance partner perhaps?)
Edited by ~in3vitableTIMING~, Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:38 pm.
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necrosis
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Why don't you geniuses cut out the fighting, and attack someone who deserves it...KOBAYASHI....?! (edit: or the bloody yaoi fangirls maybe? attack them too!)


While Ben brings up SF3's characters and how it wasn't well received, keep in mind that SF3's characters are a literally freakshow with many un-human looking characters. Not just new characters scared people away, but WEIRD characters did.
Edited by necrosis, Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:08 pm.
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Claus
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HokutoNoBen
Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:45 am
Xanxus
Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:12 am
Well, true, his [b logic[/b] makes sense in a certain perspective, but his wording and example is terrible.

Also, adding Nobuyuki wouldn't defer from Yukimura at all, the connections between the two doesn't even need to be that big of a deal, so wiritng off every character with the same last name as a PC is just stupid. Nobuyuki again, is my prime example, he would be nothing like Yukimura and wouldn't even fight on the same side as him, he wouldn't be a duplicate and would replace no-one.
You could say the same for a lot of possible characters. For example, adding in either Hideyoshi's, Hanbei's, Kenshin's or Shingen's heirs would likely equate with possibilities for a number of brand new characters, who could possibly have no links to their predecessors/relatives/adopted fathers beyond a shared last name.

But again, in light of how a number of the various "camps" have a number of representatives already, I say, let's prioritize, and make sure we have as much of a well-rounded roster, that represents as much of the various camps that made up the Jidai, as logically feasible, eh?

Well, yeah, if course there are other great examples, but i just use Nobuyuki because i REALLY want to see him in the BASARA games, him more than any other character in history. :mellow:

And i do think they should 'prioritize' and bring in more clans and new people we haven't seen yet, or heard about yet, to add more insight and interest to the stories, but still, using Nobuyuki as my example, he wouldn't belong to any clan, he fought for the toyotomi, the Sanada, the tokugawa, he would be someone to connect all the clans in a better way than "DEATH" "MURDER" and "BETRAYEL"!

I do think they should try and make a more well rounded cast with as many clans as possible, to make the stories more interesting, and to add more stages, but i just don't think its Logical to ignore every character with the same surname as someone because of a few people that would quite work in the game.

But whatever, i've beat the whole Nobuyuki topic to death with a wooden stick, no point continuing it further >_>

Ahem, if that is the box art, i am a bit disapointed, i was expecting to see Tuchi's artwork for the cover, but thats alright too i guess.
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The Outsider
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~in3vitableTIMING~
Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 pm
@ChibiGingi: dude you really need to chill out if your pissed of because of koei half A$$ed efforts thats kinda your problem, just don't take it out on us Basara fans and please don't get me wrong i was a huge fan of mUSOU one of the biggest but my work and future career is all to do with games and koei have done wrong by their fans (and no i'm not talking about the wii) its the game itself porting it from the ps2, cutting characters and stories so they don't have to create events and cutscenes same old movesets and the animations ARE sloppy compare to DW and SENGOKU BASARA.

Even speaking to people in my lecture who study game design and computer animation have said koei games always remain the same and always produce "lack of effort" when releasing a new title and me being a koei fan it kinda hurt but i could see the truth in their words KOEI ARE LAZY and Mr.k cut the Oda from SB3 for a very good reason and mark my words THIS IS CAPCOM not koei cutting characters isn't a problem SB3 is going to be a Fantastic title

And I have to agree with what SM fans say its not about the graphics but please REMEMBER SM is heavily based on realism unlike SB you can't take the two elements out of a game it makes it extremely weak and it proves koei has been lazy in a big way so the next time SM fans want to be closed minded.... THINK! games are ment to be fun but laziness IS NOT REWARDED (in my book anyway)

sorry i'm bringing it up in the Basara forum but I've always been playing a hole range of games from different decades and wanting to get into the industry it really gets under my skin when people suppress others opinions or are so close minded

SENGOKU BASARA ROCKS (I hope koei can redeem themselfs with fist of the north star... I really do!)
Just wanna say, I know where you're coming from. I have long felt that DW, although a little lazy, has elements that SW dosn't. (Not saying DW is better even though I personally think it is, but just coming at it from a gaming POV). The character animations in SW too, I agree aren't done aswell, and character additions into the DW games are given much more thought, the reason DW dosn't have really random characters I feel is because it could start arguments, if well known generals such as e.g. Pan Zhang, came into the game, people would be asking "why", when there's officers like Cheng Pu and Ma Dai who should get add. Also, Koei couldn't get away with this because DW is known to not to have 'demon' (Kanbei Kuroda, Kotaro Fuma) characters, and for somebody like Pan Zhang to be remotely accepted (unfortunately), is to make him cool. I feel Samurai Warriors has no focus, too many people just added for a time, and then, well, dismissed, then another 'epic' type person will come along.

Basara and DW have always given a focus, and even though DW had clones, you didn't feel they were overly selective, as it was a majority, but SW, they just single out the minority. If they aren't the focus of the game, just don't put them in. What I just said answered why Basara dosn't matter when cutting characters, plus, you were told exactly what was happening from day one, you're not builtup to be let down, like Koei does. I agree with what you're saying a lot :) .
Edited by The Outsider, Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:54 pm.
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Kiheiji
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Mitsunari looks a bit different in the ad poster.

And this maybe a stupid question, but is Itsuki returning?
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The Outsider
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Cerebral Assassin
Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:28 pm
Mitsunari looks a bit different in the ad poster.

And this maybe a stupid question, but is Itsuki returning?
I asked that aswel. Considering she's fictional, she could either be, or not be, up to Capcom. I have a sneaky feeling she won't be in.
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Nine Demons Yoshitaka
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Itsuki should come back grown up (2 or 3 years, to keep the loliness) and be a serious commander of the Ikki...while maintaining her ditziness. I wonder if that'd be possible...

I want to see her wreck samurai **** up. Especially Masamune. KILL KILL KILL (j/k)
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~in3vitableTIMING~
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Cerebral Assassin
Sat Nov 28, 2009 4:28 pm
Mitsunari looks a bit different in the ad poster.

And this maybe a stupid question, but is Itsuki returning?
I don't think so Mr.K hasn't said she or Zabi are coming back, i'm sure DK or BK mentioned it (if you two are reading... they've been cut right?)
I kinda liked Itsuki-chan! :lol: she did make it difficult for herself by being so slow :( (the amount of times I got my a$$ handed to me is more than I care to count HA!)

@*Burning* Devil Scholar: THANK YOU!! :cool: (I was think to myself "no way am I the only one who sees this?.... Bakana")
Edited by ~in3vitableTIMING~, Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:07 pm.
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HokutoNoBen
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necrosis
Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:06 pm
While Ben brings up SF3's characters and how it wasn't well received, keep in mind that SF3's characters are a literally freakshow with many un-human looking characters. Not just new characters scared people away, but WEIRD characters did.
That may be the case in the West, but SF3 failed even in its home turf of Japan too. And I'd like to think the fact that a number of new characters are "weird" wasn't the huge part of it; because let's face it, the likes of Urien, Q, Twelve, Oro and Necro make a relatively small portion of the roster, compared to the rest. "Ho-hum" characters like Sean, Alex and Mokoto made up a greater portion of the roster. Not to mention that the Vampire/Darkstalkers did much better in Japan than it ever did in the West, and that series has even weirder character designs.

So, therefore, I don't think it's the eccentric character designs, and more so because a number of the new characters just didn't do much to satisfy the needs and wants of fans at that time. They needed characters with the "like-ability" of the likes of Ibuki, Elena, Dudley and ESPECIALLY Remy, if they were going to try and make for more new characters. Plus, the outright lack of a number of the various SF2 personalities didn't help matters.

Couple all that, and then we have the fact that Street Fighter Zero/Alpha was marketed in arcades at the SAME DAMN TIME. Capcom was just literally shooting themselves in the foot, because the Alpha series was doing everything that people wanted, and it was on the more popular/cheaper arcade board, the CPS2, as opposed to the SF3 series' CPS3. SF3, in comparison, was basically "sent to die".

It'd be like if Capcom and Koba were making a decidedly different Sengoku Basara sequel on the Wii, which, although it wasn't HD, and had no moving lips ( :hehe: ), it had all the characters that were removed, and even added in other characters that fans/fangirls were guaranteed to like, as opposed to those in SB3 PS3.


So yeah, SF3 stands as probably a constant reminder to Capcom and its staff, of how NOT to do a new release in a series. Notice how SF4 has done a lot to play it safe, and its "Super" update is following in its footsteps.

In the end, Koba is guilty of little more than promising a similar design scope. Love it or loathe it, it's a plan that promises 85% satisfaction for the majority, and that ain't bad.
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Manta Punk
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Well, it hasn't been stated wether characters such as Itsuki and Zabii are returning, but with the info NDY has stated, about her seiyuu recovering from illness, it sure makes you wonder. If you wanna check what characters are confirmed not to be appearing, check the info thread... thats what its there for after all:

http://s13.zetaboards.com/koeiwarriors/topic/6649075/1/#new

HnB: True. I'd definitely prefer a Tsuchi piece for the box art instead of a CGI. SB2's box art was great... shame the same thing wasn't applied when they were designing SB2H's and SBBH's boxs. I like the CGIs and all, but the art more eye catching and shows the characters personality's far better. I remember some users discussing how the anime and the GGI of Oichi don't compare to her official art and I agree. I won't be too dissapointed if that poster is indeed the box art, but I can't help but think Tsuchi's art would attract more people :/

Anyway, back onto Itsuki. It'd be shame if they get rid of her, but if its to make room for more important characters, I'm all for it. Shes cute, fun and a blast to play as, but if Capcom do get rid her, I won't jump off a cliff. I reckon she has decent chance of appearing nevertheless. For one, shes a girl, and series is in need of them. Secondly, shes an Ice user, and theres already to little of them and finally, she has yet to make an appearance in the anime (apart from that short scene in the end), so that might also support her inclusion. Also, shes a pretty iconic character for series, being there since the first game and all.
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HokutoNoBen
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The only thing that would be weird about Itsuki? Without Ranmaru to act as her "foil", she loses some of what her character is all about; to say the least, she'd be the only character her age in the cast.

Plus, I thought they were so cute together in her SBBH ending. :hehe:

Part of me wonders is if they'll work around the notion of how "Ranmaru died at Honnouji", with the notion that he'll be reborn as a "new", practically unrelated character. Kinda like Ieyasu, but to even greater degree, such that Ranmaru is basically a new man, with no traces of the former boy-child he was before. It would tie right into his anime fate, where Kojuuro challenged him to leave his former life behind and start anew (with Itsuki).

I mean, it'd be taking extreme liberties, but Koba could still say that "Ranmaru died at Honnouji", while still keeping Itsuki's ideal "partner" alive through a rebirth of sorts.

Plus, it's not like such stories aren't too out there. There still exist legends about how the likes of Nouhime and/or Mitsuhide avoided their reported demises, and started new lives instead.
Edited by HokutoNoBen, Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:45 pm.
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BlackKite
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長宗我部菜々

Hmm... I wonder about that. I'm seeing this time that when Kobayashi said it, he really meant it. There are no possibilities at all on the 'vacationing' characters appearing directly. So your best bet would be if Itsuki still returns, then she's the one who will make references on Ranmaru. :rolleyes:

Now for the 'only character with that age' factor, I may have a workaround theory for that: By adding Hosokawa Gracia. Considering her obvious relations, they could make her to a loli of about the same age as Itsuki. A sadistic gothic loli that could be. :sly:

(Now that I thought of this, I just caught something possible interesting: If Gracia and Itsuki indeed respectively make references to Mitsuhide and Ranmaru.... coincidence much? :hehe: )
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Ultimate Legend
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It wouldn't bother me if she was gone. She's far too annoying. I get pleasure in seeing her die. ^_^

I would like to see them add characters that take advantage of the branching paths. Characters like Fukushima Masanori and Kato Kiyomasa for example.
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HokutoNoBen
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BlackKite
Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:40 pm
Hmm... I wonder about that. I'm seeing this time that when Kobayashi said it, he really meant it. There are no possibilities at all on the 'vacationing' characters appearing directly. So your best bet would be if Itsuki still returns, then she's the one who will make references on Ranmaru. :rolleyes:

Now for the 'only character with that age' factor, I may have a workaround theory for that: By adding Hosokawa Gracia. Considering her obvious relations, they could make her to a loli of about the same age as Itsuki. A sadistic gothic loli that could be. :sly:

(Now that I thought of this, I just caught something possible interesting: If Gracia and Itsuki indeed respectively make references to Mitsuhide and Ranmaru.... coincidence much? :hehe: )
Again, though, my only thing is really if we can trust Koba's words to the very letter, or if there might be a bit of "inference" that could be left to interpretation.

Yes, I know that the anime and the games are mutually exclusive. But even so, the two different BASARA mediums do serve as a means to "resonate" with one another. A lot of the characters that bit it in the anime also are not slated to come back in SB3. Pretty much the only ones that could afford to be immune to that clause are Shimazu (for obvious reasons), and probably Xavi. It was almost as if they were directly preparing us for the notion of how a number of these dudes were going to be peace out'd in the games, too.

Yet, the anime went out of its way to make it so 'maru got a "walk", when he could have easily gotten an implied/off-screen demise, with the rest of the Oda bunch. Was it really for the sake of censorship (doubtful, considering women and children were portrayed being killed in early episodes), or was there some thing more to it than that? And then, in yet another thing that played on what's established with the games, they showcased him being paired up with Itsuki...again.


So, we'll see, indeed. But again, wouldn't surprise me in the least, if by SB3, Itsuki is now palling around with a "new, original character", who's her whipped "boyfriend", and is basically "Ranmaru" acting under a new name, and an improved fighting style fitting his age. :hehe:

Again, I'm thinking FG parlance could easily apply to BASARA 3, because it's operated so well in the series' past. I mean, if they really wanted to, "Immature!" (SB1-2) Ieyasu could appear in an expansion, as well as the older characters that are out this time around. Same thing could apply for the likes of Itsuki and (assuming) Maru, who could be likely to have changed up quite a bit in their "current day" SB3 versions.

EX Characters. For when you need easy filler for a roster. :hehe:


But yeah...Gracia would be appreciated too. Course, part of me wonders if she could end up being a new leader to the Xavi cult... :sly:
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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*pokes head in* Huh, I don't remember badmouthing Sengoku Basara anywhere in this thread, so I'm going to assume this is your way of retaliating on my 'overreaction' in the locked SW3 thread. If that's the case, then I apologize. I did overreact, so yeah. Sorry.

Anyway, still getting SB3 when it makes it to the states. Going to enjoy playing the hell out of Ieyasu.

(Edit: I'm willing to let the whole BS drop at this point. I'm not here to make enemies; enemies over the internet is just stupid. Continue to hate me if you want, nothing I can do to stop you.)
Edited by ChibiGingi, Sat Nov 28, 2009 11:27 pm.
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