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Ways Wu, Wei, or Shu could've conquered the land; Discuss&DEBATE. PERMENANTLY
Topic Started: Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:05 am (2,430 Views)
AdventGreatness
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Here you can list and discuss&DEBATE ways Wu, Wei, and/or Shu could've unified China, and so on.

Wu I believe just press foward after the Battle of Yi Ling and finish off Shu, then could've overthrown the Nanman. I then believe that could've had a chance against Wei and then unify the land

Wei Well, after they did unify the land I believe that they should've had more loyalists around Cao Rui.

Shu At the Battle of Fan Castle if Liu Feng indeed had arrived with reinforcements then I believe that they could've won or at least survived. And with this could've pressed on Wu, and subjegate Nanman, and then destroy Wei.
Edited by AdventGreatness, Sat Jan 2, 2010 5:09 am.
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scholar
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ShadowOfBushido
Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:05 am
Here you can list and discuss ways Wu, Wei, and/or Shu could've unified China, and so on.

Wu I believe just press foward after the Battle of Yi Ling and finish off Shu, then could've overthrown the Nanman. I then believe that could've had a chance against Wei and then unify the land

Wei Well, after they did unify the land I believe that they should've had more loyalists around Cao Rui.

Shu At the Battle of Fan Castle if Liu Feng indeed had arrived with reinforcements then I believe that they could've won or at least survived. And with this could've pressed on Wu, and subjegate Nanman, and then destroy Wei.
Wu would have been left wide open to Wei, not only that but the recently conquered lands would remain pacified, and restless. The Nanman were minor and could easily be ignored by Wu at the time. Wu's conquest would be with Wei crumbling from within, and Shu practically giving themselves to Wu.

Cao Rui was a strong ruler with many loyalists behind him, also he was a capable military commander. If he lived longer, and his adopted son gained more influence then Wei would have been well on the path to unification. Especially with Wu starting to crumble.

Liu Feng was unimportant, any aid he could have given would have been worthless. The Nanman were minor, they barely get a mentioning. The way Shu could have won would be if Wu didn't backstab the alliance and cooperated better. Lu Su was an artful genious that expanded Wu without harming Shu. Lu Meng just destroyed Shu and and put Wu in a larger, but harder to defend, piece of land. Shu's unification could only happen with a three pronged attack from Yi, Jing, and the allied forces from the East. He Fei was the only way to go... After Liang and Northern Jing was taken, Wei would have been forced to retreat back behind the river. It would then depend on how strong Wei becomes when pushed north, and how restless Wu will become. Shu's path is a lot trickier than the others.
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Dongzhou
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Wu: As scholar (and Lu Xun) said, pushing at Shu at the time would have left Wu in trouble when Cao Pi launched his invasion. I think if Sun Ce hadn't died and invaded Jing or Sun Quan not taken so long to cement control. Why Jing collapsed, Wu's best opportunity was probably gone. If Zhou Yu's plan had worked then Wu would have been in a strong position but if it took him a year to dislodge an isolated Cao Ren, I hate to see how long it would have taken him to take Yi.

Wei: Not pushing onto Chi Bi but securing Jing before attempting to invade Wu the next year. Cao Rui living longer, Cao Shuang being more careful about Sima Yi and not hiring the provocative figure of He Yan

Shu: Odds were always low given how Wu and Wei were established by the time Liu Bei declared war on Liu Zhang. Taking Yi quicker would have helped as would not losing Jing in 219. Maybe if Cao Pi had shown military competence and tried to invade Wu at the same time as Liu Bei attacked Sun Quan, might have helped.
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Gaz
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If Cao Cao would have been a little more patient after taking Jing, he would have had time to secure the province and prepare his army better for a naval war. A more prepared invasion of Wu would have resulted in an early Wei victory.
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Sanjima_Ryuku
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Wu: Maybe if Sun Ce managed to live longer, managed to strike Cao Cao's army from behind while Cao Cao's busy dealing with Yuan Shao, finish Cao Cao's army and onward to Yuan Shao's army, Wu probably could have won half of the land after they finish Yuan Shao. Liu Biao, Liu Zhang, Ma Teng or Liu Bei shouldn't be a problem.

Wei: If Cao Cao managed to kill Liu Bei and Zhao Yun at Chang Ban, Wu surrendered to Wei, Zhang Lu would eventually surrender too. The remnant of Liu Bei's army could be a threat, but consider Wei's army strength at that time, it shouldn't take long to finish them off.

Shu: I don't know... Maybe Guan Yu didn't decline (and didn't insult) Sun Quan's proposal for marriage?
Edited by Sanjima_Ryuku, Fri Jan 1, 2010 9:33 am.
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Hero of Chaos
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Wu:
The thing is that Sun Ce and Zhou Yu both died early and Sun Quan was not that aggressive. If Sun Ce and Zhou Yu had lived longer,they could have surely defeated Liu Biao and than would've marched north against Cao Cao and the Yuans. Even if Sun Ce would still die early,if Sun Quan had been more aggressive,perhaps he could've continued what Sun Ce started.

Wei:
Deciding not to go to Chibi is the point here. If Cao Cao had secured Jing and trained his naval forces properly first,he could've had a better chance and defeat Wu. Liu Bei would be no match for him anyway,he would've probably been killed. Then,there would be only the western forces left,Zhang Lu and Liu Zhang would probably surrender,I'm not sure about Ma Teng,but he wouldn't change things as the land would be against him. Even if not,Cao Cao had almost all of the land,they would've been defeated.

Shu:
This one's difficult. The problem here is that Liu Bei got Yi province very late,when Wei and Wu were already fairly strong. Putting someone else in charge of Jing instead of Guan Yu could've changed things a bit,but I'm really not sure. And even if Zhuge Liang succeded in taking Chang An,it would still cost many ressources and troops to advance into the heartland of Wei. They had to rely on Wu,otherwise there would be no real chance.
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Demonic Warrior
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Wei:Cao Rui living longer,and teaching his son Cao Fang a thing or two about being a good emperor.If the Cao's influence was permanent,then Wei would have conquered the land anyway,as Jin is Wei directed by the Sima family
Shu:Instead of fighting Wu for Jing,Liu Bei could have fought Wei for the lands of Tian Shui,An Ding,Nan An and Wu Wei.And relying on Wu.Then,Liu Bei could strike Chang An,and would have survived a bit longer
Wu:After He Fei Castle,they had to pray for any other conquest.Only cooperation with Shu,and focus on destroying Wei.Now,the detail:Until 260.Because,Shu was falling apart at that time,and,if Wu managed to destroy Wei,and rebild their forces,Shu would be no match for Lu Kang
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scholar
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Sun Ce would have destroyed Wu, especially if he seriously planned on attacking the capital and taking the Emperor.
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Dongzhou
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Fri Jan 1, 2010 8:37 pm
Sun Ce would have destroyed Wu, especially if he seriously planned on attacking the capital and taking the Emperor.
Yeah, would have been a disaster if he did that. I think it is more likely that any strike against Wei was a quick attack on Chen Deng then he would have turned to Jing

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,I'm not sure about Ma Teng,


Wei ally

Quote:
 
Liu Bei could have fought Wei for the lands of Tian Shui,An Ding,Nan An and Wu Wei.And relying on Wu.Then,Liu Bei could strike Chang An,and would have survived a bit longer


and probably have lost the campaign while becoming known as Wu's puppet.
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Matsunaga Hisahide
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Wu and Shu:

They should´ve never strayed from their path of taking down Wei.

Of course both of them knew, if Wei falls, only Wu and Shu would remain. And seeing that, they allways tried to take down Wei and the other one in one blow.

But if both of them had really concentrated on eliminating Wei first, one of them would´ve been able to conquer the land.

Wei:

Really, the only thing they could´ve done better is Chi Bi. If Wei was like a moving high speed train then Chi Bi was like a huge rock on it´s railways. And Zhou Yu/Zhuge Liang were the ones who put it there.

That was a huge loss. It was pure luck that greed and ambitions held Wu and Shu back from dealing the finishing blow to Wei.
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CharAznable999
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Wu and Shu: liu bei would have retreated if wu pressed on to shu :cool:
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Dongzhou
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Quote:
 
It was pure luck that greed and ambitions held Wu and Shu back from dealing the finishing blow to Wei.


Superior resources, the defenses at He Fei and the generals that defended it, Cao Ren at Jiangling might also have something to do with that. Wei wasn't rocked by Chi Bi, true it's defenses in Jing were weaker then it should have been but it seemed only a minor defeat at the time for Wei.

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Wu and Shu: liu bei would have retreated if wu pressed on to shu


what time scale are we talking about?
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scholar
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I'm pretty sure he's thinking of directly after Guan Yu's death and the capture of Jing.
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Gaz
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Wu pushing into Shu following Lu Meng's Jing campaign would have been suicide. Cao Pi would have eaten Wu for breakfast had they dared to do that.
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scholar
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Cao Pi's military incompetence makes me think otherwise.
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Gaz
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True, Cao Pi couldn't lead an army out of a paper bag, but I'm sure we can both agree that a fullblown Wu invasion of Shu at that time would have been suicide.
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Pretty much, and any invasion into Shu would be slow and arduous based on the terrain. I seriously doubt they would be able to do anything except waste resources and make themselves more vulnerable. It may well have been the kiss of death if Cao Pi did attack. It wouldn't take much with Wu doing something so foolish.
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Gaz
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It's why I have confidence in my belief that Zhou Yu's "Two Kingdoms" plan would have ruined Wu if he survived to carry it out. I mean, it took Liu Bei so long to take Yizhou, I don't see Zhou Yu carrying it out at all without a huge squandering of time, men and resources.
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Guan Suo
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Wu will win if they never attack Jing and cooperate with Shu. after the Wei's falls, Wu's emperor is more promising than a puny fellow like Liu Chan and his sons...

Wei will win if they keeps attacking Wu after gain recover from the traumatic battle of Chibi. Shu is an easy piece even if they only do defense.

Shu will definetely win if only Guan Yu listen to Guan Ping's advice to retreat back to Shu after the fall of Jing.




but, altough i'm on Shu's side, i think Wu will win overall...
beside, Sun Jian is the one who found the Imperial Seal on Luo Yang ruins after all... it was the will of the Heaven
haha ...
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Dongzhou
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Quote:
 
Wu's emperor is more promising than a puny fellow like Liu Chan and his sons...


which of the several Wu emperors?

Quote:
 
Shu is an easy piece even if they only do defense.


Wei's struggles in Hanzhong suggest otherwise
Edited by Dongzhou, Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:01 am.
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Paragon of Light
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How much as I am a Wu fanboy, I think Wei had already estbalished itself at about the time of Chi Bi as the land's unifier. They had the most land and the most troops and a lot of talented generals to serve for defense. Only chances I think they would of lost were at He Fei and if Shu and Wu worked together at Fan Castle, which was a logistical nightmare for Guan Yu since it was a fight he could not win.
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Demonic Warrior
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Changed my opinions a bit

Shu : They could have only won with a miracle. After the loss of Wei Yan, Zhuge Liang, the Five Tigers, and Liu Bei, Shu had very few decisive generals. The two Magistrates( Fei Yi and Jiang Wan) played their role well, as well as Dong Yun. Additionally, Shu lost Ma Dai and Wang Ping, and its fate then rested on Jiang Wei's and Zhuge Zhan's shoulders( more on Jiang Wei's shoulders)
Clearly, they were not match for Deng Ai, Zhong Hui, Sima Zhao, all of the Wei Generals

Wei: Simple. If they maintained the Simas under control, the land would have been unified and Wei would rule, instead of Jing. Simple, yet difficult

Wu: After the deaths of Sun Quan, Sun Jun and Zhuge Ke, Wu basically lost any chance. The one they had, Lu Kang, had his capacity limited by the other emperors' corruption and behavioral ways. Both of the Ding Feng guys were very old already. So, only with a miracle
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Beards
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Wei:
There isn't really much Wei needed to do. It had already accomplished a lot of feats, with Chi Bi as a black one. Wu being positioned behind a huge natural border, it was unwise to make a drastic move on them with Shu still lingering against the northern boundries. After the struggles of Shu past Zhuge Liang were neutralised. Wu was just a sitting duck waiting for their turn, quite frankly. The Sima Family taking control was the rise and fall for Wei, ultimately renamed Jin. The different Cao emperors were no Cao Cao or Cao Pi, so they were unable to fully control them much.

Wu:
They were never really in trouble. They maintained their position and waited(Maybe too long). He Fei was a black day in the history of Wu. Wu might have pushed more into Jing and Yi and put pressure on Shu, leaving the veterans and most experiences navalforces behind to fend off possible Wei assaults. But even then, the tired Wu army entering Yi could might aswell be instantly attacked by Wei's northern forces. So it's somewhat of a gamble for Wu.

Shu:
Eventhough they managed to establish themselves from scrap, there wasn't really much hope. Having some great generals helped, but after those were gone, they were a little out of league compared to Wei. Not being able to pierce directly through Wei's defencive strategies, it was a matter of time before they were finished in their conquest. Shu was merely a dream, in my honest opinion.
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Paragon of Light
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As much as I am a wu fanboy, i really see no other way fr wu and shu to have any chance to conquer wei other than the Chi Bi aftermath, if Wei lost He fei, or if Wu and Shu worked together. Guan Yu, if he wasn't such an idoit, would not of been in a logistical nightmare ike Fancheng was.
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Dongzhou
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Guan Yu can't summon supplies from thin air so why is he an idiot for having supply problems after a sudden influx of troops plus the hampering effect of the flood?
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