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Are videogames art?
Yes 15 (78.9%)
No 2 (10.5%)
I DON'T CARE 2 (10.5%)
Total Votes: 19
Games and "Art"
Topic Started: Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:47 pm (898 Views)
Shogun
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I'm sure some of you may have heard about the recent controversy concerning the relationship between videogames and art. The reason this argument was popularized for the past few months is mainly due to Roger Ebert's story (which is just that, a story) that "videogames can never be art," or at least he means "not in this lifetime."

For those of you who missed it: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/04/video_games_can_never_be_art.html

Roger Ebert
 
One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

I don't really care about the art crap, but blatantly saying that they aren't a work of art is a farce. How many people actually look at their games that way while they play? And if you had to defend videogames in general, what is the game that you will use as a perfect example?

Five days ago, Ben Yahtzee (Zero Punctuation) came out and basically encouraged everyone to eliminate the term "gamer."

Ben Yahtzee
 
And as for people who call themselves "girl gamers," they're the worst of them. Not only does the word "gamer" give the unconscious segregation effect I've adequately ranted at above, but the word "girl" also implies that playing games and possessing a double X chromosome is something particularly worthy of note,

Quote:
 
Anyone who calls themselves a girl gamer is basically wearing a sandwich board saying "LOOK AT ME." Then, in smaller letters underneath, "POSSIBLE DADDY ISSUES." Then a semi-colon, then "WAAA" in brackets.

Quote:
 
The point I'm trying to reach is that playing games, as entertaining and fascinating and beneficial as it might be, is just something people do, not something they should be defined by. People don't call themselves moviegoers, or TV watchers, or book readers. That's the job of marketing agencies.

Quote:
 
So this is what I want. I want people to stop saying things like "I'm a gamer." I want people to say things like this:

"I wake up in the morning. I take a shower. I get on the bus to work. I play Doodle Jump on the bus. I go to work. I work. I play a bit of Team Fortress 2 at lunch break with some colleagues. I go home. Some nights I see a movie. Some nights I go for a drink. And some nights I stay in and play Modern Warfare. I am normal."

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Kiheiji
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Quote:
 
People don't call themselves moviegoers


They did.

And uh, I'm not trying to be witty , but I guess we can call video games art. It does contain graphic, story, and music, afterall.
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x_QiaoxChan_x
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i know one thing, the people responsable for those parts about girls can suck it.
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SyrianDude
Formerly Da Qiao Forever
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Is he serious? I would like to punch him.

Doesn't it "artists" to create the characters, the stages, and pretty much everything to make a game? Everything starts out as a drawing then it becomes what it is supposed to be. Some people are just ignorant.

Now this crap about "girl gamers" is just stupid. Why we even have it around is because let's face it, girls don't play video games as much as guys do. So when you do find a girl gamer it's a little surprising (to me anyway XD). And what the hell is that crap with the "sandwich board" he's saying that all girl gamers are troubled or weird if they call themselves a girl gamer.

This is probably some older man talking but he doesn't have info from the younger generation. If he talked to gaming teens they'd say the exact opposite.

Haha....Moviegoers....And they used to say that too...
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Shogun
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Keiki
Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:37 pm
Quote:
 
People don't call themselves moviegoers


They did.

And uh, I'm not trying to be witty , but I guess we can call video games art. It does contain graphic, story, and music, afterall.
Really? Because last I checked, pretty much every normal person is an average moviegoer, it's just something you do.

And how is that witty?
x_QiaoxChan_x
 
i know one thing, the people responsable for those parts about girls can suck it.

You didn't understand a word he said, did you?
Da Qiao Forever
 
Now this crap about "girl gamers" is just stupid. Why we even have it around is because let's face it, girls don't play video games as much as guys do. So when you do find a girl gamer it's a little surprising (to me anyway XD). And what the hell is that crap with the "sandwich board" he's saying that all girl gamers are troubled or weird if they call themselves a girl gamer.

He said nothing bad about girls. What he's trying to say is that there's nothing special about being a "girl gamer," because gaming is a hobby and it's not made for a specific group of people. The sandwich board was a joke (he's a comedian) he uses to make fun of those girls who feel special calling themselves "girl gamers." Girl gamers aren't some sort of rare phenomenon, you'd be surprised by how many of them play games regularly. After all, who doesn't enjoy a casual game of Guitar Hero, PES, or other sports games?

Everything in that post was taken totally out of context.
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Kiheiji
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@Shogun: I've seen some people calling themselves moviegoers, but I guess I can take your word. Also I wasn't saying my post is being witty, but that I'm not gonna make any longass detailed post, but only simple post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thing is, movies and games are rather different. Everybody watched movies, but only some plays games. Just like not all people smoke. The term "gamer" shouldn't abolished.
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WuTiger123
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I think it is definitly a form of art. Not in the usual way of canvas painting but some games Assasins Creed 2 comes to mind, and the buildings and landscapes there are beautfiul and how is that not art? To create something that people find beautiful is definitly art i think
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French Overlord
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well i think game are kinda some kind of art by there own way...cause there is actually some drawing before finalizing level or character and music in the game we have now are pretty awesome with the ochestra and everything, even in the making of the 3d model there's a lot of time vowed to the details and all... so yeah i think the game itself is not an art but the making/concept could be count as one o.o
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Lei Fang
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I think videogames are art, to create a game you have to work a lot and usually a looot of people is behind the creation of a game, maybe more than behind the creation of a movie, and anyway their objective are the same, to entertain, so why videogames wouldn't be art?.

Though some games make me question it a lot lately x), but there are also a lot of bad movies too.
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Dracandros
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I came from the time where video games were a science, and the only art that was truly in it was to keep the flow of the game going, to bring a little life to it, and to make an effective interface. It was the exploration of controls and the ability of programmers to design the games that they truly loved, not the progression of a story or the graphical use of hardware.

I still think that it is a science. It is all about profitability now.
Edited by Dracandros, Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:15 pm.
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Lei Fang
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Yep, you are totally right Dracandros, but it is a pity right now programmers have lost their thrill about making their loved games come true, i miss those Atari instruction booklets with programmer signature and recommendations for the game, now its all about money and graphics, they just want to impress with good graphics or exploit games that sells well with new titles to the saga that doesn't offer anything new.

I can count with the fingers of one hand the games that still add on their instruction booklet "Thank you for have bought this game", some games are closer to say "Thank us for making this awesome and great videogame". -.-

Like movies, now all of them use to center on special effects, plot is secundary, same with games, they are centered on graphics and all and they are loosing the funny of old games, probably they became more graphical art than science now, except for Wii and Kinect of course.
Edited by Lei Fang, Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:27 pm.
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Baiken
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For me videogames was art sometime ego, "Ocarina of Time" is a good example (at least in my opinion), but now something is wrong.....

I cant see now games that can receive the name of "piece of art" or "masterpiece" like in the old generations :/ , but i think this is another thing to talk out of here :mellow: .
Edited by Baiken, Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:13 pm.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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Yes I think video games are an art. It takes a great amount of imagination and detail to create worlds like are created in games like Halo and God of War and Gears of War. Or to replicate the beautiful scenery that are in all Assassin's Creed games.

I would assume the development of games do require artists, to draw out planned stages and character designs. And most games have a story and music, and while some games are more cinematic than others (Assassin's Creed and Halo are arguable more cinematic than Grand Theft Auto), overall they all hold a similar amount of creative detail.

Video Games are probably just as much as an art form as Pixar movies...the only difference is, with Pixar, all the decisions are made for you. A Video Game is an interactive movie :hehe: (some are good, some are bad. Just like movies.)

If you aren't familiar with the medium, then of course you won't see it as art. But at least be respectful of it. I don't know a damn about Poetry, but I recognize it is an art form. Games like Assassin's Creed 2 have a vibrant beauty about them, much like Avatar (a movie) or Lord of the Rings (a novel).
Edited by Mr. Kamikaze, Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:32 pm.
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HokutoNoBen
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I disagree. The problem with video games is much like the same problem that has been plaguing comic books for more than 50 years now.

And that is...How can either medium truly afford to be "art", when the main concern is marketing a product that appeals to any array of power fantasies (re: "I FEEL SO BAD-ASS WHEN I'M PLAYING THIS GAME), and more importantly, being "fun" and something that can sell?

In other words, most people who describe themselves as "gamers" don't care about artistic merits in their games. Even people who actually work in the video game industry often don't consider what they're working with to be art. The people at the top are only concerned about money, and making the stock holders happy. The producers have to answer to what the suits at the top are telling them. And even developers (the ones who actually are making the game) rarely get to allow their imagination to fly so free. Because again, the focus is more on a product that can sell, not to try and be "high art".

Okami is a sheer tragic example of how such aspirations can fall flat on its face. After all, no matter how "artsy" and "critically acclaimed" the game was, it didn't matter jack if it couldn't make or beat Capcom's profit expectations.

And so, that's why I think video games really can't afford to be any thing close to a true art form, any more than video game "journalism" is anything close to real journalism. There's no room for "high art" where the important thing is making a profit, not invoking an emotional response and deep critical thinking in players.
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Dracandros
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I 100% agree with HokutoNoBen. As a programmer, I haven't done an ounce of art since I started working for a living because everything in technology is either a marketing scam or a very controlled profit enabler.

It is all profitability now. It wasn't that way so much during the 70s when most people would create games for their own amusement and just share them. On top of that, development teams were so small that they could easily incorporate any ideas that they wanted to add without truly losing anything.

That doesn't mean that there aren't neat ideas, but that's been mostly delegated to free games.

Edited by Dracandros, Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:37 pm.
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Jasonic
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I 100% disagree with HokutoNoBen. I am an animator, and know very well that art goes into what I do and make, and the final product is most certainly art. I build and shape these characters from the bottom down, straight from my brain to a moving, talking character on screen. These things arent just pulled out of someone's butt and say hey now go and make me money. Could you honestly say that Toy Story 3, Spirited Away, Up, or most any other animated movies are not art? Its certainly no coincidence that my major emphasis is called Bachelor of Arts degree in Animation and Game design. I may be focusing on a non gaming field, but I study and learn everything that goes into the animation side of gaming, and there certainly isnt a difference. Game developers and animation studios use concept artists and animators well in the same. Programming is very different, and programmers would be no where without the animators. They would have just a bunch of 3d shapes and polygons moving around with no features at all. So yeah, one part of making these games, may very well not be art, but the other most certainly is. I personally would be offended if someone came up to a project I was doing and to say there was nothing artistic about it. If that were the case, I would know that I failed.
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Matsunaga Hisahide
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Shadow of the Colossus.

This game was art. The atmosphere it created, this new feeling it caused in gamers, riding along that deserted, lonely and quiet, yet beautyfull and diverse world.

Each of the big colossus, were a masterpiece of their own. All with their own personality and each of them fitting into the area they came from.

What they did is definietly art, seeing as it created a feeling in so called "gamers" that a Mona Lisa creates in some "paiting lovers" or whatever they are called.

Games aren´t art, but some games are most definietly the peak of art. Just like I wouldn´t call every picture or painting art.
It just depends.

Throwing everyone and everything into one pot is easy and shows that this guy or whatever being wrote that, is a damn jerk. But I give him that: He perfected the art of being a total idiot. Ignorance allways wins.
Edited by Matsunaga Hisahide, Thu Nov 25, 2010 8:10 pm.
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HokutoNoBen
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Ashitaka
Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:59 pm
Could you honestly say that Toy Story 3, Spirited Away, Up, or most any other animated movies are not art?
Well, hell, let's make this even more interesting! I ask you: is rap music "art"? :sly:

This is where a lot of the whole nonsense related to art-based arguments start to lose their steam, much less their reason for being. And all of it's due to "eye (or ear) of the beholder".

In the example I posted above, some may think of rap music as nothing more than "bunch of non-music consisting of cursing negroes talking about money, cars and women". Some one else may go on to cite the likes of Tupac and Notorious B.I.G.'s classics, which actually had rap songs that told stories, inspired critical thinking or at least invoked an emotional response. And still others will go on to talk about how such things can still be condensed to being prepackaged products from a corporate machine that is more interested in getting your money, than worrying about if the product could be considered "high art".

In short? The best answer I can give you is that you're never going to get unanimous opinion when it comes to art related debates. What's "art" to you is not necessarily "art" to some one else.
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Sanada
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Games are a form of art. Granted not all games show it much, most prodominant in sequels, but they are forms of art nonetheless.

The creators of most forms of art are described as 'expressing themselves' or some such thing, no? Many games come off the same way, through the stories, the artwork, the animation, even the soundtrack has a major effect. It is near impossible to get a so-called 'masterpiece' in Gaming, even only considering that, purely because there are too many variables to consider, but as a whole it is certainly a form of art.

One thing from the initial quote I would like to comment on is this:
Quote:
 
Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film.

I would argue with that definition of a game in itself. A game is something you can control the actions in, and effect the goings on. Not all games have a direct goal, some are purely for random antics. These are most commonly the sort of smaller games.

Main stream games I will admit are mostly not so much 'art', but that goes along with my earlier point, seeing as a large number of games releasing are simply sequels, spin-offs and other such things.
Looking towards Indie games particularly though and you can see the art in the games...in some cases, but regardless.


You can't say the game is art purely because of how it looks, or the atmosphere it builds, as it uses other forms of 'art' to acomplish this, but the combination of these while creating something that someone has free control over to manipulate the goings on without breaking that feel, that is what makes games art.
Admitidly this is often pulled off poorly, but there are bad movies, bad novels, bad paintings, so it's no different here.


I amn't sure I am phrasing my justifcations all that well... And there were some points that came to mind I just forgot while typing, but as a whole, I do say gaming is a form of art, if the developers wish to treat it as such.
Some developers don't care, they just care about the money, but as long as one designer or such does care enough about it, it is still a form of art in some way.

If they use it as purely a way for income, then maybe it isn't, but if that is all they try the game will lose some of it's soul. You can tell when effort is put into a game to create the feel of it, how much work it must have taken, and how much the designers must've put into each aspect, and I'd say that shows how it is art.


The gameplay aspects directly do not really come into it, it's simply how the gameplay fits in with everything else involved.
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YukiZM
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Keiki
Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:37 pm
Quote:
 
People don't call themselves moviegoers


They did.

And uh, I'm not trying to be witty , but I guess we can call video games art. It does contain graphic, story, and music, afterall.
agree 100%
besides even my Art teacher agrees =P

he's a black ops freak :mellow:
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Dracandros
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Ashitaka
Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:59 pm
Programming is very different, and programmers would be no where without the animators. They would have just a bunch of 3d shapes and polygons moving around with no features at all.
I 100% disagree.

Where would we all be without programming (or for that matter, anybody who wants to design something in Flash or use a GUI) - animators would have to do the matrix transformations, projections, and rotations by hand or by text. There is a reason that so many people got paid very high salaries during the 70s and 80s.

My definition of science is the study of the laws of nature. I don't have a good definition of art because no matter what I wish to define it as, I believe that video games are more about the study of the laws of nature than anything else.

Whether that study is about the movement of electrical current, the study and manufacturing construction of the parts in electrical devices you currently have today, the countless hours of research done by the data mining of data stored in computers, the management of any such process, or the profitability of the game done by combining tons of research and understanding of the market, one thing remains constant about video games today.

Most of the time spend in video game development is a benefactor of science. It just so happens that profitability is much more of a driving factor than it was years ago when designers had very few tools to work with (and thus, had to logistically figure out how to program a whole lot more).

To be honest, programming something in Java is so much easier than programming something in...like...Pascal that I honestly can't even call myself a programmer anymore. It's almost all maintenance now.
Edited by Dracandros, Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:08 pm.
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Sanada
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Resolute Warrior

I agree with your disagreement (would have quoted if the formating didn't mess up when i did so, removing new lines and such).

I've been learning the creation of models using the internal commands of C++ this semester in Uni, so the games could easily be made not simply as shapes and polygons, they just wouldn't be quite the same. I know this doesn't relate to your points on it, but just something else to put in there.


Anyway, I will simply say this to the other part.
Science is what creates the game, but the design of the game is an artform. The implementation is a science. It combines the two.
Won't bother going into it more than that.

EDIT: Just something interesting relating to the topic...
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/TECH/gaming.gadgets/06/27/supreme.court.video.game.art/index.html?hpt=hp_c2
Edited by Sanada, Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:19 pm.
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