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Most Wanted Additions: Day Two, Wei
Topic Started: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:23 am (6,032 Views)
Cao Hong 14
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The one and only
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sure he had a strong relationship with cao cao but the one major thing he is missing is events. th ones he could have are xia pi, guan du, and he bei. thats all. its not enough for anything significant. there is a reason he hasn't been added yet and its most likely because of his lack of events. guo jia is overrated. jia xu was way superior to guo jia but guo jia was there first and didn't kill dian wei or cao cao's eldest son. if jia xu had been in guo jia's footsteps then cao cao would never have given a rats ass about guo jia. sima yi is not a traitor. cao shuang was the real traitor. he got rid of sima yi so he could have all the power to himself then he got greedy and despotic. sima yi was tired of cao shuang's rule of tyranny so he had that taken care of, after that he died only months after. it was more sima zhao and shi that ensured wei's demise and the rise of jin. not so much sima yi.
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Zephyria
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@Cao Hong 14
you didnt get my critical point: Guo Jia is nearly 23 years younger than Jia Xu. In the Three Kindoms time, anyone can easily die of cold or some small diseases. in fact, Cao Cao did not expect himself, who is 15 years older than Guo Jia, to live beyond him, not to mention Jia Xu, who is still nearly 10 years older than Cao Cao.
You may think Jia Xu is the cleverest strategist because he lived the longest, but i definitely have enough evidences to hold my opinion. Imagine that a 27-year-old strategist who defeated Lu Bu on his debut . Whats more, man's wisdom grows with age increasing. When Guo Jia get enough experience, he may have surpassed Jia Xu at Jia Xu's age. Further more, if you take a closer look at their characteristics, you may find that Guo Jia is very insightful about rivals' minds on what attack they are going to take, thus makes him possible to suggest an active but risky attack and to win in the end. ON the other hand, Jia Xu mostly just used his wisdom to protect himself, and he never take the initiative to offer advice unless asked or his own life is at risk. If you were Cao Cao, whom would you listen to?

Guo Jia has no defeats in his professional life as a strategist, and every time Cao Cao listened to him, which is very important for strategists.



anyway it's Ok to keep our own minds on this issue. There are never any definite solutions to this problem.
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Dongzhou
Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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Quote:
 
cao shuang was the real traitor. he got rid of sima yi so he could have all the power to himself then he got greedy and despotic. sima yi was tired of cao shuang's rule of tyranny so he had that taken care of,


Questionable. Certainly Cao Shuang's power coup was wrong but the exact motives of both and the success/failure of Cao Shuang's rule are open to doubt. Cao Shuang's reforms I'm aware of and his choice of officials hardly speaks of a despot and Sima Yi's Confucian ideology may have been a huge factor.

Quote:
 
Imagine that a 27-year-old strategist who defeated Lu Bu on his debut .


Ok but when did that happen?

I think Guo Jia is overatted but he would be a decent add if they can work around his short life. Managed to make an impressive figure in DT and it's sequel so they have something to build upon.
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Cao Hong 14
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The one and only
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he could be a decent add but the thing is that there is no need of a 3rd strategist for wei. exactly why I doubt we will see lu su. so actually I don't really care if anyone wants guo jia because chances are that he won't be added, even though he is popular. its obvious that if koei listened to their fans the roster would be different. guo ia is overrated, he ws still pretty clever but if you look at his accomplishments vs jia xu's you will then understand what I mean when I say that he was the superior strategist. ya there is no definite answer but just compare the 2's accomplishments.
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jsully16
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Guo Jia is far from overrated. Wrong word selection. He was easily a top 3 talent in terms of intellect, but he died young. He's not overrated, he just didn't accomplish enough because his life was too short. He died when he was, what? Mid 30's? Seems to happen too much. Zhou Yu died young, too, but his victory at Chi Bi makes him automatic add.

Guo Jia was a more talented strategist than Sima Yi because of Sima Yi's many faults, and he was probably every bit as good as Zhuge Liang without being such a prick. He toppled Lu Bu and had a large hand in toppling Yuan Shao, and then he died, but AFTER HE DIED, he advised Cao Cao on how to subdue the north and off Yuan Tan and Yuan Shang. He's the only person to defeat an army after he died.

People talk about Zhuge Liang's trick after he died with Jiang Wei, but Guo Jia's was more impressive. Cao Cao shot to power so fast, and I believe a lot of it has to do with his go-to guy being such a talented advisor. And I very much believe that had he been alive, he could have dissuaded Cao Cao from many of his mistakes at Chi Bi.

For instance, Guo Jia could have seen through the chaining ships plan as a foolish way to ensure there would be no escape should they be defeated, and I doubt he'd also dismiss the weather as being in their favor, as he was one of the only guys who could seem to tell what was going to happen based on the smallest things. "I saw a kid today licking a lollipop. This means that a huge army will raid our camp tonight."

Guo Jia was far from overrated. I get what you're trying to say, but that's a painfully misuse of the word.
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Bamboo
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*hail hydra*
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Agree, Guo Jia was intelligent and had able foresight, but he still is overrated.

Quote:
 
He toppled Lu Bu and had a large hand in toppling Yuan Shao
His career during these campaigns: along with Xun Yu tells Cao Cao to attack the besieged Lu Bu and apparently flood Xiapi. Wouldn't call that Guo Jia toppling Lu Bu, and if you do say it attributing it Guo Jia alone is biased and unfair since he only advised to attack that one time, Xun Yu had the same advice, and Cao Cao and his generals had done most of the work militarily. I think only Cao Cao's record has the two ministers plan the flooding of Xiapi, the ZZTJ doesn't give names.

Before the Guandu campaign, agrees with Cao Cao that they should attack Liu Bei first. Not really much else there, so the 'large hand' thing is an exaggeration. He really only has one shining moment, if one doesn't count the Ten Points speech which is even attributed to Xun Yu.

For Chibi, I wouldn't doubt Guo Jia being able to figure out the danger of fire, but it is questionable whether he could still prevent it. Convincing the overconfident Cao Cao seems already daunting with Cheng Yu and potentially the recently-absorbed Jing troops suggesting otherwise. Even if he did, could Guo Jia still prevent a loss there? Doubt it. There was sickness among Cao Cao's troops so if they had a prolonged campaign (seems to be the case) he would eventually have to retreat or rotate his forces if such was even possible.

Guo Jia doesn't have as much to do as you say in the expeditions against Yuan Shao and Lu Bu, but during the one against the Yuan sons, I would agree his advice was valuable. Overall as a strategist Guo Jia was great, but definitely not on the scale of Zhuge Liang. Yes he was more political pre-Liu Bei's death was a genius in all his contributions for Shu. Comes up with the eventually-successful long-term plan for Liu Bei, advises Liu Qi on how to survive the succession turmoil, along with Lu Su secures the alliance with Sun Quan, and that's what, only in the first half of his service, before he becomes the commander-in-chief?

Quote:
 
People talk about Zhuge Liang's trick after he died with Jiang Wei
What do you mean?
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jsully16
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Tiger General
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I simply meant tricking Sima Yi to thinking that Zhuge Liang was still alive during the counter attack, thus making Sima Yi fall back. During Wu Zhang Plains.

Guo Jia helped Cao Cao topple the north after he died.
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Bamboo
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*hail hydra*
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Okay, that's what I thought you meant, but I just couldn't be sure. Agree with the new statement. :)
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Cao Hong 14
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The one and only
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I don't doubt you I know guo jia is intelligent, but he is still overrated as bamboo has already said. his roles are way over exaggerated. He played a huge role in the toppling of the yuan sons but that was never a battle in dw anyways until dw6 special. he isn't a terrible add but just not one of the best either, at least IMO. too short of a career and not enough shinning moments.
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WarHawk
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Where did bandana go?
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Like Jia Xu`s credo being on the distance with people. He was suspicious and careful, but knew military tactic well. Have three big success in career - Wan Castle, Guan Du and Tong Gate. If only Cao Cao was not so overabundant by ambitions and was not valued his enemy Sun Quan so crucially low and agreed with Jia Xu`s advice not attack Wu so early then Battle of Chi Bi would never happened. ... period of Three Kingdoms could ended as fast as he appeard.
Guo Jia`s career was short and promising. He reminds me Li Dian as he both die young enough. I read many about Feng Xiao and like him more than Xun Yu and mysterious (sinister? oh yeah!) Cheng Yu. So If Koei decided add third strategist (nothing terrible here) I`m voting for Guo Jia.
Edited by WarHawk, Fri Feb 4, 2011 3:51 pm.
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