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Dynasty Warriors 7 [v5] (SPOILERS); SPOILERS BEWARE! GAMEPLAY VIDEOS/INFO INSIDE!
Topic Started: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:01 pm (735,298 Views)
Solf Aetheral
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Random Hater
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Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Exactly, his success rate is 100%. Zhuge Liang's about 50%, even lower I guess.
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
[ *  * ]
The Top ten commanders of the era (early 3k):
1. Cao Cao
2. Zhuge Liang
3. Sun Jian
4. Sun Ce
5. Sima Yi
6. Zhou Yu
7. Guan Yu
8. Lu Xun
9. Zhang Liao
10. Liu Bei

honorable mentions: Zhang Fei, Zhang He, Ma Chao, Yu Jin, XiaHou Yuan, Xiahou Dun, Cao Ren, Cao Zhang
underrated generals: Ju Yi, Gao Shun, Chen Dao, Wang Ping, Cao Zhen, Cao Xiu, Li Dian, Zang Ba, Guo Huai, Ma Zhong, Zhang Yi.
Later 3k era top 10 (no order)
Deng Ai, Jiang Wei, Yang Hu, Du Yu, Lu Kang, Chen Tai, Zhong Hui, Sima Shi, Sima Zhao, Ding Feng.
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YumichiHeart
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Wei's Elite
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Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
He did however, die very early... he is overrated in a way, as is Zhuge Liang.
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Sheng Dao
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General
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Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Agreed and Zhou Yu is not overrated/ Had he lived longer, who knows what would have happened. Heck, who knows what would have happened had he and Sun Ce attacked while Cao Cao battled Yuan Shao. Zhou Yu was was brilliant commander, fate just wasn't on his side. The same can be said for Sun Jian and Sun Ce, they all were just very unfortunate while other men seemed to have the devils own luck. Anyways, I think Zhou Yu would have made a huge impact had he not died so early.
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:20 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Exactly, his success rate is 100%. Zhuge Liang's about 50%, even lower I guess.
It took him a year to take Nan Jun, against a much inferior enemy.
In fact, Cao Ren himself retreated, after Guan Yu cut off the Wei supply line.
And there are multiple reasons beyond tactical ones to explain Chi Bi, and Wei mostly because of plague and inexperience in naval combat, not because of the fire.
some of Chen Shou's record of 3k even shows that Cao Cao himself burned the ships, while that's disputed, Zhou Yu's skill is still overrated.

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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Sheng Dao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:28 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Agreed and Zhou Yu is not overrated/ Had he lived longer, who knows what would have happened. Heck, who knows what would have happened had he and Sun Ce attacked while Cao Cao battled Yuan Shao. Zhou Yu was was brilliant commander, fate just wasn't on his side. The same can be said for Sun Jian and Sun Ce, they all were just very unfortunate while other men seemed to have the devils own luck. Anyways, I think Zhou Yu would have made a huge impact had he not died so early.
Sun Ce did tried to attack Xu Chang, he didn't even reach there: Chen Deng (another underrated man) stopped him at Guang Ling. So yeah, Sun Ce and Zhou Yu are not that great.
Zhou Yu is no doubt a great naval commander, but he never showed enough as an army general, and his performance at Nan Jun is disappointing.
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Solf Aetheral
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The numbers still are on Zhou Yu's side, while Zhuge Liang is so blatantly overrated that it's a pain to learn about it.

Cao Cao, I think we can all agree on this however, was indeed in the top 3 commanders of the era. His "strategy crew" was pretty badass, with the likes of Jia Xu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu...
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SazukeEX
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Behold Sun Shi! The Fiery Tiger Cub of Sun Ce, Lu Xun's Tigress, and the Mother Tiger of Lu Kang!
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That's a bit bias, don't you think?

Sun Jian is skilled but he's nowhere near top 10 material.

I see it is.

1. Cao Cao
2. Zhuge Liang
3. Sima Yi
4. Zhou Yu
5. Zhang Liao
6. Liu Bei
7. Guan Yu
8. Lu Xun
9. Deng Ai
10. Sun Ce
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 am
The numbers still are on Zhou Yu's side, while Zhuge Liang is so blatantly overrated that it's a pain to learn about it.

Cao Cao, I think we can all agree on this however, was indeed in the top 3 commanders of the era. His "strategy crew" was pretty badass, with the likes of Jia Xu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu...
Then stop reading ROTK, and start reading Record of 3k!!!
ROTK made Zhuge Liang a sage, that is bs
but still, Zhuge Liang is a top three figure of 3k.
He's the greatest administrator of the era, a top strategist (LongZhong Dui alone makes him qualify), and a great commander (NanMan and Northern).
Zhou Yu is an exceptional general, but that's it...Sun Quan and Zhang Zhao had more to do with running the kingdom...
Overall, Zhuge Liang is still better than Zhou Yu, even though the ROTK portrayal is crap.
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Gaz
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SazukeEX
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:44 am
That's a bit bias, don't you think?

Sun Jian is skilled but he's nowhere near top 10 material.

I see it is.

1. Cao Cao
2. Zhuge Liang
3. Sima Yi
4. Zhou Yu
5. Zhang Liao
6. Liu Bei
7. Guan Yu
8. Lu Xun
9. Deng Ai
10. Sun Ce
Replace Guan Yu with Zhang Fei and move Sima Yi down a few places and that list is reasonably accurate.
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YumichiHeart
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Wei's Elite
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Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 am
The numbers still are on Zhou Yu's side, while Zhuge Liang is so blatantly overrated that it's a pain to learn about it.

Cao Cao, I think we can all agree on this however, was indeed in the top 3 commanders of the era. His "strategy crew" was pretty badass, with the likes of Jia Xu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu...
Agreed about Cao Cao, disagree with Zhou Yu though, but an underrated general that should be on that list is Xiahou Yuan, he was Cao Cao's right hand man until his death at Han Zhong, had many victories, and not many were given the freedom Xiahou Yuan had. Another thing I do not get is, why everyone is so crazy about Cheng Pu, but not Yue Jin. They have the same accomplishments really, they both helped their lords from early on, and served for a while, were in many battles, etc.

On topic: I'm still curious if DLC is on the disc, especially with what Chin said on his blog about Pang De. I mean, that points to DLC on disc doesn't it?

@gaz, Sima Yi deserves that spot actually, put Zhang Liao for Guan Yu's place, and Zhang Fei for Zhang Liao's, and give Guan Yu 10th.

Edit#2: :facepalm: for some reason i thought Zhang Liao was 8th
Edited by YumichiHeart, Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:52 am.
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Xiuzhao
Member Avatar
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zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:28 am
Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:20 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Exactly, his success rate is 100%. Zhuge Liang's about 50%, even lower I guess.
It took him a year to take Nan Jun, against a much inferior enemy.
In fact, Cao Ren himself retreated, after Guan Yu cut off the Wei supply line.
How is it that none of what you say here can be found in the SGZ biographies of Zhou Yu, Cao Ren, or Guan Yu or any of Rafe's relevant works?
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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SazukeEX
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:44 am
That's a bit bias, don't you think?

Sun Jian is skilled but he's nowhere near top 10 material.

I see it is.

1. Cao Cao
2. Zhuge Liang
3. Sima Yi
4. Zhou Yu
5. Zhang Liao
6. Liu Bei
7. Guan Yu
8. Lu Xun
9. Deng Ai
10. Sun Ce
First, I said early 3k, so deng ai don't qualify :)
second, sun jian is really good.
In the Anti-Dong Zhuo campaign, after dong Zhuo moved the emperor and court to Chang An, he stayed behind to take on the coalition.
The coalition did not do anything, except for two men: Cao Cao and Sun jian (Liu Bei didn't participate in the coalition). Cao Cao's force was crushed by Xu Rong, and he almost died... Sun Jian's force defeated and killed Xu Rong, then he beat Dong Zhuo and forced the usurper to run to Chang An.
Really, Sun Jian could have been number one if he did not die so early and lose to Liu Biao's army (srsly?) but at one point, the tiger of JiangDong is better than Cao Cao
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WhiteHorseRide
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Right General
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Xu Huang is easily top 10, whether historically or looking at it from the novel's perspective. His track record is impeccably consistent. And on top of that, his martial prowess was exceptional as well.
Edited by WhiteHorseRide, Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:52 am.
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Gaz
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:47 am
SazukeEX
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:44 am
That's a bit bias, don't you think?

Sun Jian is skilled but he's nowhere near top 10 material.

I see it is.

1. Cao Cao
2. Zhuge Liang
3. Sima Yi
4. Zhou Yu
5. Zhang Liao
6. Liu Bei
7. Guan Yu
8. Lu Xun
9. Deng Ai
10. Sun Ce
Replace Guan Yu with Zhang Fei and move Sima Yi down a few places and that list is reasonably accurate.
Guan Yu is better than Zhang Fei
And really, he was the best Shu general (Zhuge Liang did not start commanding army until Liu Bei died), and at Fan Castle, He took on almost an entire Wei and still almost won, if not for Wu...
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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YumichiHeart
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:48 am
Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:38 am
The numbers still are on Zhou Yu's side, while Zhuge Liang is so blatantly overrated that it's a pain to learn about it.

Cao Cao, I think we can all agree on this however, was indeed in the top 3 commanders of the era. His "strategy crew" was pretty badass, with the likes of Jia Xu, Guo Jia, Xun Yu...
Agreed about Cao Cao, disagree with Zhou Yu though, but an underrated general that should be on that list is Xiahou Yuan, he was Cao Cao's right hand man until his death at Han Zhong, had many victories, and not many were given the freedom Xiahou Yuan had. Another thing I do not get is, why everyone is so crazy about Cheng Pu, but not Yue Jin. They have the same accomplishments really, they both helped their lords from early on, and served for a while, were in many battles, etc.

On topic: I'm still curious if DLC is on the disc, especially with what Chin said on his blog about Pang De. I mean, that points to DLC on disc doesn't it?

@gaz, Sima Yi deserves that spot actually, put Zhang Liao for Guan Yu's place, and Zhang Fei for Zhang Liao's, and give Guan Yu 10th.

Edit#2: :facepalm: for some reason i thought Zhang Liao was 8th
Xiahou Yuan is a great general, and his campaign defeated Ma Chao
But he lost to Liu Bei at Mt.DingJun, so completely that he lost his own life and Cao Cao lost Han Zhong, that have to drop him few spots.
Guan Yu is a great general, and had he succeeded at Fan Castle, he would have being a top three commander.
His defeat however, was mostly because of Political reasons, he is still the best general of Shu before Zhuge Liang.
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:49 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:28 am
Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:20 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:08 am
In a way, Zhou Yu is overrated
he's a great navy commander, but his inability to conquer Nan Jun shows that he's not a great army general
What? Zhou Yu won the battle of Nanjun. He is the only major Three Kingdoms officer to have never lost a battle.
Exactly, his success rate is 100%. Zhuge Liang's about 50%, even lower I guess.
It took him a year to take Nan Jun, against a much inferior enemy.
In fact, Cao Ren himself retreated, after Guan Yu cut off the Wei supply line.
How is it that none of what you say here can be found in the SGZ biographies of Zhou Yu, Cao Ren, or Guan Yu or any of Rafe's relevant works?
Uh, maybe you should read Chen Shou's record of the three Kingdom (三国志)
since, you know, it's Chinese history?
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Xiuzhao
Member Avatar
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zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:58 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:49 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:28 am
Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:20 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:15 am

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
Exactly, his success rate is 100%. Zhuge Liang's about 50%, even lower I guess.
It took him a year to take Nan Jun, against a much inferior enemy.
In fact, Cao Ren himself retreated, after Guan Yu cut off the Wei supply line.
How is it that none of what you say here can be found in the SGZ biographies of Zhou Yu, Cao Ren, or Guan Yu or any of Rafe's relevant works?
Uh, maybe you should read Chen Shou's record of the three Kingdom (三国志)
since, you know, it's Chinese history?
:facepalm: SGZ = San Guo Zhi = Records of the Three Kingdoms
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Gaz
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He Qi's Homeboy
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Saddened that there's not much Cao Ren, Xiahou Yuan, or Zhang Fei love. All three are top-tier generals imo.
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Rydain
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Could be worse, I suppose
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zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:52 am
Guan Yu is better than Zhang Fei
And really, he was the best Shu general (Zhuge Liang did not start commanding army until Liu Bei died), and at Fan Castle, He took on almost an entire Wei and still almost won, if not for Wu...
Guan Yu was only able to eliminate Yu Jin and Pang De's armies because a natural disaster flooded them all out. Despite being flooded, isolated, and severely outnumbered (10,000 vs. 40,000+ troops), Cao Ren held Guan Yu off for 3 months until Xu Huang was able to reinforce him for a counterattack. I don't see how this counts as a near-win for Guan Yu due to superior generalship.

Furthermore, Wu had little to do with Wei's success at Fan. If anything, Lu Meng's ruse caused Guan Yu to divert more men to the Fan siege.

@Gaz - Cao Ren is my favorite 3K historical personality, and I agree that he was one of the era's best. :cool: I respect Xiahou Yuan and Zhang Fei as well, though I haven't yet researched their records in as much detail.
Edited by Rydain, Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:04 am.
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Gaz
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He Qi's Homeboy
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Rydain
Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:03 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:52 am
Guan Yu is better than Zhang Fei
And really, he was the best Shu general (Zhuge Liang did not start commanding army until Liu Bei died), and at Fan Castle, He took on almost an entire Wei and still almost won, if not for Wu...
Guan Yu was only able to eliminate Yu Jin and Pang De's armies because a natural disaster flooded them all out. Despite being flooded, isolated, and severely outnumbered (10,000 vs. 40,000+ troops), Cao Ren held Guan Yu off for 3 months until Xu Huang was able to reinforce him for a counterattack. I don't see how this counts as a near-win for Guan Yu due to superior generalship.

Furthermore, Wu had little to do with Wei's success at Fan. If anything, Lu Meng's ruse caused Guan Yu to divert more men to the Fan siege.

@Gaz - Cao Ren is my favorite 3K historical personality, and I agree that he was one of the era's best. :cool: I respect Xiahou Yuan and Zhang Fei as well, though I haven't yet researched their records in as much detail.
Yeah, Cao Ren is The Man. He gets major kudos for Nanjun. The fact he could hold off Zhou Yu and the high-spirited Wu army for so long with an army of demoralised, plague-ridden troops is really commendable. Not not mention his legendary rescue of Niu Jin! Dunno why Koei have yet to do Nanjun justice yet, tons of events on both sides in both novel and history.

Xiahou Yuan's bio was lost when the site I found it on went down (could have been Empire Divided, not sure) so I haven't read it in years. Needless to say, I remember him being a badass and highly successful general, but I'd need to read it again to confirm that.
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zhuoran92
Elite Soldier
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Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:01 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:58 am
Xiuzhao
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:49 am
zhuoran92
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:28 am
Solf Aetheral
Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:20 am

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
It took him a year to take Nan Jun, against a much inferior enemy.
In fact, Cao Ren himself retreated, after Guan Yu cut off the Wei supply line.
How is it that none of what you say here can be found in the SGZ biographies of Zhou Yu, Cao Ren, or Guan Yu or any of Rafe's relevant works?
Uh, maybe you should read Chen Shou's record of the three Kingdom (三国志)
since, you know, it's Chinese history?
:facepalm: SGZ = San Guo Zhi = Records of the Three Kingdoms
read sun quan's biography
or if you can read chinese, check out this post
it has all the reference from SGZ
Here's an excerpt, the encoding might be messed up
备、瑜等复追至南郡,曹公遂北还,留曹仁、徐晃於江陵,使乐进守襄阳。时甘宁在夷陵,为仁党所围,用吕蒙计,留凌统以拒仁,以其半救宁,军以胜反。…………十四年,瑜、仁相守岁馀,所杀伤甚众。仁委城走。
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=922843925
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Paragon of Light
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The Comeback King
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
the fan castle campiagn was bound to fail really. Logsitics and political reasons being the main ones. Having too many mouths to feed, spliting his forces into four (vanguard, one at fan one at xiangyang, and one defending the rear) and overesimating his own abilities. (I don't doubt his skills as a warrior, as a stratgiest and politcian those were his downfall. Also a bit off topic.)
Back to the game, I think it was the author's own top 10.

Gonna to wait for a shu video showing us their ex skills (predictable and obivous thing is obivous want to see Ma Dai's second musou.)
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Jebus
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First Lieutenant
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i dont see y sun jian would be on any of these lists, and guan yu was great and belongs in the top 3 along with cao cao and zhuge liang
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Rydain
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Could be worse, I suppose
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Gaz
Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:09 am
Yeah, Cao Ren is The Man. He gets major kudos for Nanjun. The fact he could hold off Zhou Yu and the high-spirited Wu army for so long with an army of demoralised, plague-ridden troops is really commendable. Not not mention his legendary rescue of Niu Jin! Dunno why Koei have yet to do Nanjun justice yet, tons of events on both sides in both novel and history.

Xiahou Yuan's bio was lost when the site I found it on went down (could have been Empire Divided, not sure) so I haven't read it in years. Needless to say, I remember him being a badass and highly successful general, but I'd need to read it again to confirm that.
I was so excited about Nanjun being in DW7 that I had to go spoiler it for myself. Man, what a letdown.

Spoiler: click to toggle


As to Xiahou Yuan, I have the Rafe's tome Cliffs Notes version of his bio. Someone on SoSZ has been resurrecting the old Empire Divided biographies, and it may have been posted there. I do remember seeing it recently - I just haven't pieced together all the context of his campaigns like I did for Cao Ren.
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