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Locked Topic
Dynasty Warriors 7 [v5] (SPOILERS); SPOILERS BEWARE! GAMEPLAY VIDEOS/INFO INSIDE!
Topic Started: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:01 pm (735,265 Views)
Shadowclaimer
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Yuqi
Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:13 pm
aliebeth
Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:57 pm
Wow...I am really starting to miss the old days where if you wanted info about a new game coming out, you had to wait until the game mags came out. That way the game stayed more mysterious before launch and people had less ground to stand on when they decided to ***** AND MOAN ABOUT EVERY FREAKING THING THEY FIND DISAGREEABLE.

KOEI kind of shot itself in the foot by releasing basically every piece of info about DW7. What happened to secret characters? Super tough unlocks? SURPRISES?! I mean we're at the point where the official DW7 facebook is posting links to ALL the music and complete streams of the story mode!
^this

Ahh the good old days..
The DW7 Facebook group isn't official.

The Koei Facebook group is. They post info about DW7 (just characters and such) but not streams etc. The DW7 group posts about anything.
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JustMax
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I do not see a lack of uniqueness when it comes to the movesets except in one area(namely a handful of characters sharing similar weapons and movesets,) and that's been a Dynasty Warriors trait since DW2. It's illogical to pick out DW7 specifically for this issue.

Yeah and I even mentioned this before. I'm not only criticising DW7.
DW5 had the least clones, they all had something unique; why take a step back when the clones are something that are most complained about? With this current way, you're left with basically EVERYONE being a clone.

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I had the likes of Sun Quan, Liu Bei and Yuan Shao as some of my most preferred characters to play as in DW5, and these guys were that game's clones. But now, I can make them as unique from each other as I want.

They had different movesets: C1, C3, C4, C5, C6, musous, air charges, full S-strings. Some of the C2s were the same, but that already beats "one ex move and two musous". Why take a step back?

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Even then, we still have several dozen characters with a weapon that they don't share with anyone by default. I think that defines "uniqueness" pretty well.

That is oversimplifying this. You can only make a case about the EX moves and musous making them unique from a gameplay perspective. Otherwise everyone is basically the same.

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How am I wanting the characters to lose their identity?

I explained this already.

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leave them on the characters and make absolutely no changes in your game and they'll keep this "identity" you speak of, outside of the few clones.

Sure you can do that and lie to yourself that they're unique. When they're not. That is just what you'd be doing in that situation, pulling a curtain over your eyes and pretending it doesn't exist.

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that's not a whole lot less than how Liu Bei and Yuan Shao in DW5 only had maybe 4 or 5 attacks unique to each other and sharing everything else.

Bias. I counted 8 moves from my list.

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How the heck is it "spoon-feeding" the player when it's NOT being forced on them to use the weapon change system? That's what freedom of choice in this situation is about; you can just ignore it and leave it as is if YOU so choose

Why did you disregard the point I already wrote explaining this? o_O
I said it already: It is spoon feeding when you have the choice of sticking with just the two movesets you like FOR EVERY CHARACTER, defeating the purpose of even having multiple characters, as has been said.

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Asking for unique movesets for 62 redesigned and remodeled characters of which of the weapons a majority are made from scratch(and the couple carried over from DW6 still needing to be edited to be used in the Charge Attack System) is a ludicrous demand.

Sure it's demanding much, but why go for quantity over quality?
It's as if there are only polar opposites in game design, either just a dozen characters, or 62 clones. You're kinda disregarding what I've said after my initial point, that maybe just change some charge attacks here and there, and make movesets according to body build.

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Someone mentioned WO2 as a counterexample. Uh, yeah, WO2, a game that ported characters and movesets that already existed, already modeled, already mapped, from TWO separate existing games. It's a completely different scenario.

Ok, DW5.

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Uh, what we were arguing against was the notion of locking the characters' weapons to them. That means no switch attacks, that means no trying out different combination of weapons or discovering new combo chains with how weapon A and B work together. It's just going back to the same old turkey we had in DW2~6.

Why is it impossible to have any other options than "what it is now" and "what it was before"? Yes, you ARE oversimplifying things, yet again. You're oversimplifying my arguments. Being a mod you can easily find my posts, that even I can't do!
Yes it is a good thing that you can try different combinations, but that wasn't the point. I've been incredibly clear about this since day one of this argument. In the worst case scenario, using any other weapon won't be worth it. That's something that should be avoided and makes adding more and more characters useless.

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Compare that to the people who adored playing as Ma Chao even though he was a half-clone with Jiang Wei. Nobody cared, 'cuz it was Ma Chao and he was fun to play as! Well, for them anyway, I thought he was boring~

I actually mentioned this before: The things that made the CHARACTER unique have been lost in favor of making them the same. Now we don't have horseman Ma Chao because his moveset is shared with everyone. There's NO DISTINCTION between the characters and the only way to choose the best character is his/her EX move/musous. And that's all. DW5 at least had everyone be unique in their own way. That's how tier lists work btw, there's always someone who gets the short end of the stick, the people who REALLY enjoy the character and don't care about the low tier placement WILL keep playing as him/her. You're basically just saying that this decision only has good sides, when I've said it has both.

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As far as I'm concerned they've given me MORE incentive to play as characters I had no desire to play as before.

No that's actually the opposite.
Example: I want to try out Cao Ren because he has the shield weapon in DW5, yet hate his personality.
I don't want to try playing as Cao Ren because I can just use his weapon on someone else and I hate his personality.
I have ZERO incentive to try out other characters now :/

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All in all, it just seems like we are looking for different things out of Dynasty Warriors.

Yet you're saying why the people who look for different things are wrong.

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I'm sorry high horse is such a hilarious statement, maybe it's something you don't say around your parts?

You basically just said he's on a high horse because you couldn't refute anything, therefore deserving a "lol".
Why the hell do you defenders keep attacking everyone? First it's "those arguments are nitpicking", then it's "stupid", then it's "high horse"...
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Chunli
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I'm with JustMax.

I whined just a little about what he's saying (the clones) and the Koei defense force came out in full force.

EVeryone's the same character now with only the EX and Musou being slightly different.
Edited by Chunli, Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:33 pm.
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Frayling0
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As I said before - if you feel that strongly about it, vote with your wallet, and don't buy the game. If everyone buys the game, Koei will see the popularity, and think everyone liked the new system.

But no. You'll all probably buy it anyway.
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Majushi
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JustMax
Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:26 pm
With this current way, you're left with basically EVERYONE being a clone.
This is where I disagree.

They're only clones if you choose to use the same weapon again.

You choose to make them clones by repeatedly using the Dao.

Your choice.

My choice might be using the halberd instead. Oh look. Now I'm only a clone if I play Lu Bu. If is so choose.

Cloning only becomes a problem if you play the other people who also use the weapon as their ex.

And even then, their ex and both musous are different.
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JustMax
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Chunli
Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:32 pm
I'm with JustMax.

I whined just a little about what he's saying (the clones) and the Koei defense force came out in full force.

EVeryone's the same character now with only the EX and Musou being slightly different.
Indeed. Glad to see support. Thank you.
And you're right about the defense force, just look at frayling's newest post :D

Let me make this clear to you fanboys once and for all: I'm going to buy the game, I'm going to enjoy playing, I'm not going to regret my purchase. Clones isn't enough to break my purchase and online co-op is enough to make my purchase. You do the math.
Look at what Daosiying said: He's enjoying the game, yet finding the clones an issue.
Who do you THINK Koei is going to listen to? Their paying customers or people who didn't buy their games?
It's like "you have a complaint, you must hate the product overall and not find it in any way enjoyable". Really, if anything's stupid it's logic like that.

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They're only clones if you choose to use the same weapon again.

Yup. But being able to use all weapons counters that. If you choose to give everyone the same weapon, everyone's a clone. Actually everyone already is a clone, you're just choosing who gets what weapon.
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Majushi
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JustMax
Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:51 pm
Who do you THINK Koei is going to listen to? Their paying customers or people who didn't buy their games?
It's like "you have a complaint, you must hate the product overall and not find it in any way enjoyable". Really, if anything's stupid it's logic like that.
Koei certainly aren't going to listen to people who buy the game either.

Koei are gonna see good sales and think they did good.

They're not gonna bother coming down here and checking out your arguments about clones. (or any of our arguments about anything for that matter)

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They're only clones if you choose to use the same weapon again.

Yup. But being able to use all weapons counters that. If you choose to give everyone the same weapon, everyone's a clone. Actually everyone already is a clone, you're just choosing who gets what weapon.


Only if you choose to do so. If you think playing with the Dao repeatedly is best for you, go you. Are you saying that the weapon swap system is good, but they should have 62 individual move sets for each of the weapons for each character?

Characters still have personality. This doesn't change that. You still hate Cao Ren, despite being able to give him a weapon you like.

These characters aren't all about their weapons. It's not the be all and end all of this game.

We both intend on buying the game. That much is clear.

I just think you're over simplifying how cloning applies.

You argument is that they're all clones because you can use any weapon with any character.

I'm saying they're only clones if you choose to make them clones by playing them with the same weapon repeatedly.
Edited by Majushi, Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:18 pm.
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Chunli
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Majushi I just want to spinning bird kick my computer reading your silly argument abt "They're only clones if you choose to"

Geez you might as well play DW3 and just shoot arrows at everyone. That way everyone is a clone right? *rolls eyes*
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Validur
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still deciding between this and dragon age 2 at the moment. But knowing me I'll probably get both :XD
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JustMax
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Majushi
 
Koei certainly aren't going to listen to people who buy the game either.

Koei are gonna see good sales and think they did good.

They're not gonna bother coming down here and checking out your arguments about clones.

Wrong: http://gamrreview.vgchartz.com/sales/7695/dynasty-warriors-6/
Yet they changed the things people complained about in DW6 for DW7(no Renbu).
And I didn't mean it as them coming here personally to check the arguments, rather the arguments do get to Koei, I just don't know how, therefore I'm complaining here.

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Only if you choose to do so. If you think playing with the Dao repeatedly is best for you, go you.

But the possibility of doing that already makes them clones. It's pretending it doesn't exist if you don't acknowledge this.
Everyone has the same movesets for the weapons and only one weapon has an EX move for the characters. They are ESSENTIALLY clones. You just give them different weapons, still doesn't counter the fact that everyone can use those weapons with the same moves.
The worrying thing about that is that in the worst case scenario you won't be using any other weapons except the ones you like using... For everyone. That is being a clone.

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Are you saying that the weapon swap system is good,

Yes.

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but they should have 62 individual move sets for each of the weapons for each character?

Originally yes, but I realise it's asking for too much. Now just changing them according to body build and making them somehow more unique per character is my main argument. Or change the movesets according to how many stars they have for the weapon.

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Characters still have personality. This doesn't change that. You still hate Cao Ren, despite being able to give him a weapon you like.

The example was about me having no reason to play as Cao Ren anymore. I can just give his weapon to another person and not touch him at all. Unlike in DW5 where I'd have to use him to know what his moveset is like.

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These characters aren't all about their weapons. It's not the be all and end all of this game.

I never said it was, just now I don't have a reason to even try characters I don't like personality-wise.

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I just think you're over simplifying how cloning applies.

But they are all clones with just three different moves. There's no changing that fact.

Quote:
 
You argument is that they're all clones because you can use any weapon with any character.

I'm saying they're only clones if you choose to make them clones by playing them with the same weapon repeatedly.

But your point does not counter mine. You're still pretending they're not essentially the same when they are if you give them the same weapon. No amount of "it's your choice" is going to change the fact that they are clones, objectively. If a computer was given the task of making every character unique, it would give them all two weapons; some of the same weapons would be given to multiple characters. If you ask the computer "do these characters have the same movesets?" the computer would respond "yes". If you ask the computer to make everyone the same it would be able to do so. If you ask the computer "do these characters differ from one another gameplay-wise?" the computer would only give an answer about the EX moves(that some wouldn't have at all in their disposal if they have to have the same weapon as someone else) and the musous being different.
Counter? Well every weapon having a character dependant EX move would be a start. But the movesets would still be the same :/
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Majushi
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I'm not saying they're not the same.

I'm saying it's only a problem if you keep on playing the same weapon repeatedly.

You won't know something's exactly the same each time if you change things around.

And you were arguing that characters loose something unique about them by sharing weapons. I was arguing that characters are more than just their weapons. Hence you still hating Cao Ren.
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Mr. Kamikaze
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Personally, I don't think having three unique moves (one being a charge attack, from about 5 or 6 charge attacks) counts as "not being a clone". When 95% of a characters moveset is shared by at least one other character, I am pretty sure "clone" is still a legitimate argument.

I for one have gotten over the idea of clones, the characters EX and musou attacks are diverse enough for me to not care anymore, but I certainly understand where everyone else is coming from.

I also am personally tired of the whole "they are clones if you choose them to be" argument, because it just doesn't make any sense. Let's assume you are going to play as everyone using their EX weapon, you already have like 6 of them who use Daos as their EX weapons. Let's assume you want to not use EX weapons...there will be several instances where you will choose the same weapon, because there aren't enough unique weapons (as in unique movesets) to keep all 62 characters from sharing a moveset with someone else...so I think the bottom line is clones exist, "choosing to make them clones" doesn't matter...because it will happen, regardless of what you choose.

Also, I agree with what I will dub the "Cao Ren Argument", I never have to touch Bao Sanniang, cause I can give her yoyo to Lu Xun. All I am missing out on is her Ex attack and musou attacks...I won't miss them. (Not that I will do this, but just saying. The argument makes perfect sense)
Edited by Mr. Kamikaze, Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:49 pm.
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Snyf
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Uh.... I wish I hadn't logged on here...

These threads have just become argument after argument and no one ever says anything useful. I logged on to find some interesting things and what's been going on lately, but the only thing that got me excited were the expressions for the characters. I'm just biding my time to wait for the game next week.

I really hope the game does come out next week though. I don't live in the NA region but that's the game I'd like to get. So, I don't know if it's coming to the Middle East now or later on...

This is the problem with living somewhere that doesn't have a release date. You just go to the video game store and have to depend on luck for the desired game to be present there...
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JustMax
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Quote:
 
I'm saying it's only a problem if you keep on playing the same weapon repeatedly.

You won't know something's exactly the same each time if you change things around.

But then that's putting a curtain over your eyes...

Quote:
 
And you were arguing that characters loose something unique about them by sharing weapons. I was arguing that characters are more than just their weapons. Hence you still hating Cao Ren.

But I'm not taking the personalities into the equation. If you did that, you'd be saying that Sun Ce and Ma Chao weren't clones in DW6 because of different personalities.
They have lost their respective traits, like Ma Chao isn't the best on a horse anymore.

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so I think the bottom line is clones exist, "choosing to make them clones" doesn't matter...because it will happen, regardless of what you choose.

Exactly. Thank you for your great argument :)

TBH, IMO: There's no harm in recycling movesets especially when they make them unique(DW2 Huang Zhong VS DW5 Huang Zhong). Every new game doesn't really need to be made from scratch, just improved upon. Half of the Dao movesets would have been unique if they just took the DW6 movesets and tweaked them a bit(the looks, not necessarily the properties), for example. Or the pike movesets would have had some differentiation with Guan Yu for example.
I'm still a bit bummed that they completely lost Lu Xun's moveset(the moveset, not the weapon for Lu Xun), Cao Cao's moveset and Sun Jian's moveset from DW6.

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These threads have just become argument after argument and no one ever says anything useful. I logged on to find some interesting things and what's been going on lately

Well I've been trying to ask about the save files for God knows how long now and no one responded, so I tried stating my opinion and to my surprise there ARE people reading this thread! :XD
Edited by JustMax, Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:12 pm.
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Snyf
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And, I know I'm going to be flamed here, but I really find the long posts and multiple quotes extremely annoying! Whenever I find one I just skip through it.

Also, wasn't the complaints thread created for a reason? Sorry, I'm not talking about the arguments, but that some members just post stupid stuff.

Darn it, it was so much more fun here before the game was released in Japan!
Sorry for being off-topic and whiny. :P I just don't know what to do!
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Frayling0
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Luxun_warrior96
Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:24 pm
And, I know I'm going to be flamed here, but I really find the long posts and multiple quotes extremely annoying! Whenever I find one I just skip through it.

Also, wasn't the complaints thread created for a reason? Sorry, I'm not talking about the arguments, but that some members just post stupid stuff.

Darn it, it was so much more fun here before the game was released in Japan!
Sorry for being off-topic and whiny. :P I just don't know what to do!
Sadly, your right. Though I've been involved in the arguments, I came on here yesterday and had to trawl through people quoting separately. What the hell is the need in dissecting the quotations? All it does is extend your post across half the page and irritates everyone else.

Half of the arguments have been utter rubbish anyway. I still stand by what I said yesterday regarding characters that didn't make cut scenes, and the same kind of point applies. There is not enough development time/budget/effort/motivation/sales figures (whatever) to give every character a completely unique move set.
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ThreeKingdomsWarrior
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JustMax
 
Quote:
 
These threads have just become argument after argument and no one ever says anything useful. I logged on to find some interesting things and what's been going on lately

Well I've been trying to ask about the save files for God knows how long now and no one responded, so I tried stating my opinion and to my surprise there ARE people reading this thread! :XD

I asked for the "save files" too, yesterday. No answer. I try again (shouting):

IS THERE ANYONE, WHO KNOWS, IF WE ARE ABLE TO COPY SAVE FILES?
Edited by ThreeKingdomsWarrior, Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:05 pm.
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Frayling0
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Maybe you'll have more luck if you Private Message one of the users who have the game? Your request probably got lost amongst all the trash.
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Chunli
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Frayling0
Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:51 pm



and had to trawl through people quoting separately. What the hell is the need in dissecting the quotations? All it does is extend your post across half the page and irritates everyone else.

LOL I always imagine people who quote sentences separately, their face all purple in rage and they hold their breath and they type loudly and reply one sentence, then they breathe deeply until their body trembles and hold their breath again to reply the next sentence/quote and their face gets redder each time and the veins pop out.

And then their mum calls them to do their homework. :lol:



My imagination is so err...weird lol. :meantongue:
Edited by Chunli, Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:29 pm.
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MĀJĒD
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ooooooh my god

Sima Yi in Wei ending that's so evil I even like him more now.
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ThreeKingdomsWarrior
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Frayling0
Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:08 pm
Maybe you'll have more luck if you Private Message one of the users who have the game? Your request probably got lost amongst all the trash.
Yeah you're right. Trash. Such as this posts :lol: .
I will try later with that PM-option.
And i think, i know, why someone called you "anonymous" :D .
That person doesn't see your name in the "members-bar" down the pages.
You could be even a "guest". But i just think, you refused to show your name in the bar, like many others :shifty: .

Btw, as we assumed a few weeks ago, they are changing the release dates in the shops now. Very late :/ .
On Monday, amazon and some shops still stated the 25th (at least in my country, Germany).
Since then, they changed to the ?1st April?. I guess, next week they will change it to 8th April ;) .
And some people are calling Koei lazy? No way. ^^THOSE^^ are lazy.
They can't even state the right release date.

Oh, and look at this embarrassment/pitifulness/scandalous deed of my country.
The cover-art of the game is out since years months weeks, and they still show the game without it. Just saying "No image available" :facepalm: .
This is the proof, that my country is the biggest boycotter of Koei/DW in Europe :angry: :
http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_18?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Dvideogames&field-keywords=dynasty+warriors+7&x=0&y=0&sprefix=dynasty+warriors+7
Edited by ThreeKingdomsWarrior, Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:50 pm.
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Frayling0
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I've checked my settings, I'm completely visible -- no idea why I got called anonymous? I ticked the appear in the members box, there's no reason why I shouldn't show up?
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Daikyō
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I'm ready to serve you all

Okay just got info from my Local online Gamestore that the game will be also delayed due to supplier said the game got delayed in America, yeah they just knew about the delay thing today, i was kinda expected they will got the game earlier but then i'm wrong again *sigh* but it's okay, it's just another week O:)
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Jiang Wei1
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-Daikyo-
Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:23 pm
Okay just got info from my Local online Gamestore that the game will be also delayed due to supplier said the game got delayed in America, yeah they just knew about the delay thing today, i was kinda expected they will got the game earlier but then i'm wrong again *sigh* but it's okay, it's just another week O:)
What. R u kidding me. The game is only 6 days away. Is it a gamestop who sent you that? What part of the U.S. do you live in?
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Benzod
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Anyone finding it a little odd that there's a flame war over this now, when weve known about the dual equip system pretty much since the game was announced. Yes, I know we've now found out that everyone definitely uses the weapons in the same way, save an attack or two. But surely you've had time to get it out your system by now. Just run out of other things to argue about here I guess.
Edited by Benzod, Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:51 pm.
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