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Better later era officers, Shu or Wu?; Both kingdoms lost many veterans, but who lost more?
Topic Started: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:23 pm (2,845 Views)
Spangler225
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A Dog All Alone In The World
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I think maybe Wu lost more of their able officers and didn't have good replacements in the next generation. I mean they had Lu Kang, Wu Yan, Yu Quan, ding feng, Zhuge Ke, I don't remember who else. Shu had, Zhuge Zhan, Jiang Wei, Ning Sui, Fu Qian, Zhang Zun, Zhao Tong, and again I dont remember who else. I'm not only naming them for skill but bravery as well. If anyone knows any other officers of note, please go ahead and post.
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Dongzhou
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Not sure some of those Shu ones count as good, either due to ability or due to being corrupt/allied with Huang Hao.

I think Shu had difficulty replacing military men at one point, Liao Hua got promoted quite high and the likes of Zong Yu became military officers in their 70's. Admittedly this leaves questions as to why Jiang Wei didn't use Lou Xian or Hou Yi. I don't know enough about Wu's officers to give fair comment.
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Spangler225
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well i know lu xian didn't side with huang hao so he was sent to Ba Dong, and Huo Yi governed in the southern lands around the nanman. I don't know why they weren't used
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Angelic Linca
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Shu.
Yi Ling cost Shu more and helped to weaken it.
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Pride
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孟德
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Wu.

While Shu is left with Wang Ping, an undiscovered talent in Luo Xian and a maniac like Jiang Wei in control, Wu had the likes of Ding Feng, Lu Kang , Zhu Ran and others. Even if you count the ones in Zhuge Liang's time, like Wu Yi , Wei Yan and Ma Dai, Wu would have better ones like Lu Xun, Han Dang, Xu Sheng, Lu Fan, etc..

I don't there was a time when Shu had better officer than Wu.
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scholar
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At the time of Wu's fall there were two, almost, competent generals in their midst. Both lost and both were killed.

Shu's case was a bit different, there were still a few talented people around and Jiang Wei's fiasco ended up dooming the small country.
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Spangler225
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Both Wu and Shu had few talented officers compared to Wei.
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Paragon of Light
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Let consider which officers these shu had compared to that of Wei and Jin.

Shu after wuzhang had Jiang Wei, Wang Ping, Liao Hua, Fei Yi, Zhang yi etc. The ones who stand out are Wang Ping for his victory at Xingshi with the aid of Fei Yi and Luo Xian for repelling Lu Kang in the waning days of shu. (A shame this guy's talent was underused.)

Wu had Lu Kang, Ding Feng, Zhu Ran. Zhuge Ke, Lu Xun, Sun Shao, Xu Shang, Zhuge Jin etc. Their accomplsihments are a little more well known to me so I would say out of the two Wu had the better pool of talent but that's justy what I'm saying. The only general during the fall of wu that I recall doing good was Wu Yan who replled Jin attacks from the start but that could be faulty.

Of course when compared to what Wei had or rather just the vast amount of talented men Wei had. Deng Ai, Zhoug Hui, Sima Yi, Guo Huai, Sima Yi, Sima Shi Sima Zhao, Yang Hu, Du Yu Wang Jun, Sima Zhou etc. It was pretty much a war of attriton. Wei had more land and men so they could afford more riskey operations and it was a simply a matter of time. I bet even if Liu Shan and Sun Hao were compentent rulers their lands would of fallen in due time.

Edit: This is my own critque and correct if I'm horribly wrong on something.
Edited by Paragon of Light, Mon May 2, 2011 4:20 am.
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Spangler225
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If liu shan and Sun Hao were competent they could have worked together to defeat Wei. If Shu took Chang An and that whole province then even with their officers, they could have beaten Wei
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Dongzhou
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So Wu, at their peak, barely made it past He Fei despite numerous attempts by Sun Quan but would do so under Sun Hao? Ok, Shu never fought Wei at it's peak but Zhuge Liang still had a good army and they never got close to Chang An. So why would better (since Liu Shan was regarded as competent) emperor's change that?

Liu Shan can not be blamed for Shu's failure on the offensive. He could have done more like sack Jiang Wei after umpteen times but hard to see how the likes of Zhang Yi could have done what Zhuge Liang couldn't do. Sun Hao inherited a weak kingdom, ravaged by civil conflict, mass murder and mass corruption. While he did affect the armies by his paranoia, a lack of that wouldn't magically solve all Wu's problems that had plagued every single Wu commander.

I agree with paragon of light. To be honest, Shu or Wu needed an exceptional emperor/battlefield commander to have a chance of victory in those times.
Edited by Dongzhou, Tue May 3, 2011 7:25 am.
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Paragon of Light
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Like Dongzhou said, shu and wu would need like a commander with huge talents in all areas including military and civil duites and coorinate attacks several thousands of kilometers apart. (Hanzhong, jing, xiangyang, hefei, shouchan) Rarely have we seen men with that type of ability and with all the talent shu and wu had, none of them or even if the emperors were decentj and their kingdoms were at their peak.

THe only way I could see either wu or shu winning is that if lets said the war of 8 princes or the wu hu uprising or the xiongnu invasion happened eariler than what actually happened in history and they have to wait Wei/Jin out but that would of been decades pretty much.
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Dongzhou
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Again I agree with that. Bar an exceptional commander being around, the best chance Wu and Shu have for a long time would simply be to hand on till Wei/Jin fell apart. That though was always going to be a difficult ask.
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Spangler225
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If only Shu was focused on the defensive instead of offensive. I guess they thought if Wei was allowed time, they could gather a large army. But Shu's advantage was the mountainous land and all the large gates defending their capital. They had Mian Zhu, Yang Ping, Jian Ge, among many other gates in their territory. Wu's advantage was the chang jiang around most of their land. Wei had an overall advantage of land mass and capable generals.
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Sakon Shima
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Agree. In later campaigns, Shu was too focused on the offence, not the deffend. Their supply unit was not enough, and other problems. Sima Yi made a really wise choice to wait Zhuge Liang to die then attack Shu.
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Dongzhou
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Sima Yi never attacked Shu?
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Ero-Sennin
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I believe the only thing close to Sima Yi 'attacking' was him ordering Cao Zhen to try and invade Shu, not sure if I'm wrong or not on that, so don't quote me on that.
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Hero of Chaos
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I think Cao Zhen was Wei's Commander at that time and it was his idea to attack Shu, so it'd be Cao Zhen's doing in the end and not Sima Yi's. They did lead the counter campaign, but the rain prevented them from accessing Hanzhong so it had to be called off. Still, Zhuge Liang was alive back then.
Sakon Shima probably meant it as theory, that it was Sima Yi's idea to not attack Shu until Zhuge Liang died, not that he actually did attack Shu.
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Asiansensation
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@Spangler225

It is true that Wu lost more able officers without replacements, but consider their actual kingdom as a group. Shu had large families of the Liu,Guan, Zhang,Zhuge,Huang, and others. Wu had a few such as the Sun,Ding,Lu,Ling, and a couple others. My point is that Shu had families to replace fallen officers while Wu had a smaller choice of talented officers. Wei had A LOT of families, most of Wei was families. Cao,Sima,Xu,Guo,Xiahou, Zhang, and many more loyal officers.
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Wu, of course. they lost
Zhou yu
Sun Ce
Lu Meng
Gan Ning(?)
Sun Jian
And many more. Im certain Shu lost fewer than Wu.
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Ero-Sennin
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Sun Jian wouldn't count, as he was never apart of Wu.

Personally, what later era are we talking here? Post Wu Zhang, or what?
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Greyjoy
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Post Wuzhang. I'd say both were even and had a decent amount of talented men, although some were not used. I.e Luo Xian.
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Ero-Sennin
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Hm... personally, I prefer later era Wu generals, Lu Kang being one of them.
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dwandswforlife
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Mon May 2, 2011 2:53 am
Let consider which officers these shu had compared to that of Wei and Jin.

Shu after wuzhang had Jiang Wei, Wang Ping, Liao Hua, Fei Yi, Zhang yi etc. The ones who stand out are Wang Ping for his victory at Xingshi with the aid of Fei Yi and Luo Xian for repelling Lu Kang in the waning days of shu. (A shame this guy's talent was underused.)

Wu had Lu Kang, Ding Feng, Zhu Ran. Zhuge Ke, Lu Xun, Sun Shao, Xu Shang, Zhuge Jin etc. Their accomplsihments are a little more well known to me so I would say out of the two Wu had the better pool of talent but that's justy what I'm saying. The only general during the fall of wu that I recall doing good was Wu Yan who replled Jin attacks from the start but that could be faulty.

Of course when compared to what Wei had or rather just the vast amount of talented men Wei had. Deng Ai, Zhoug Hui, Sima Yi, Guo Huai, Sima Yi, Sima Shi Sima Zhao, Yang Hu, Du Yu Wang Jun, Sima Zhou etc. It was pretty much a war of attriton. Wei had more land and men so they could afford more riskey operations and it was a simply a matter of time. I bet even if Liu Shan and Sun Hao were compentent rulers their lands would of fallen in due time.

Edit: This is my own critque and correct if I'm horribly wrong on something.
Wu by far. Look they had long standing officers that had been fighting under the Wu banner for generations. I don't think Cheng Pu was dead towards the later era yet, possible though, but he was pretty beastly. The majority of Wu officers under stood their orders and defended their borders quite well in fact. Especially when it came to water.

Now quoting Paragon for his righteous post. I agree 100% with what he said.
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Hero of Chaos
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I'd also go with Wu. Paragon of Light pretty much nailed it.
Cheng Pu died in the 210's, so he doesn't really count.
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Aygor
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Shu's worthy officers and advisors past Wu Zhang would be:
Jiang Wei, Wang Ping, Xiahou Ba, Ma Dai, Zhang Yi (Boqi), Zhang Ni (Bogong), Liao Hua, Luo Xian, Huang Chong, Zhuge Shang.

Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Dong Yun, Zhuge Zhan, Dong Jue, Fan Jian, Yang Yi.

Wu:
Zhu Huan, Ding Feng (Chengyuan), Sun Shao, Zhu Ran, Quan Cong, Lu Dai, Wu Yan

Lu Xun, Lu Kang, Zhuge Jin, Zhuge Ke, Bu Zhi, Gu Yong, Hua He, Teng Yin, Lu Kai, Zhang Ti

Wu in the later years had an edge over Shu, but not a large one.
Edited by Aygor, Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:13 pm.
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