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Weapon Switching: Success or Failure?
I love it! 74 (70.5%)
It stinks! 31 (29.5%)
Total Votes: 105
Weapon Switching; Success or failure?
Topic Started: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:54 am (4,257 Views)
Wild Lion
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Legend
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So I haven't seen any specific topic about the new gimmick of DW7, the weapon switching

What did you think of it? Would you like to see it back for DW8? Changed somehow? Or scrapped altogether?

I personally love it after playing around with it for a while, it's almost like a CAW feature. I enjoy mixing and matching the weapons because sometimes I feel Koei just doesn't get it right. If we can't have a CAW in DW8, I would like to see weapon switching return in some form, even if we can't equip 2 at once it would be nice just to swap movesets and characters.

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Daosiying
道士英
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In its current condition, its just lacking in polish and thought out design.

Of course the main issue present is that the option to provide any moveset to any one of 60+ characters effectively ruins the need to experiment or play with others, since you could just pick your favorite character, and do the exact same thing, barring the mostly meh EX attacks.

What makes it worse is that characters are simply not designed for it. Exacerbated with a major emphasis being on extremely trivial weapon proficiency that really only has effect at level 3, due to jump cancels and the awful whirlwind present on power weapons that screws up many attacks. Thankfully the latter is mostly fixed for XL, so attacks work properly. For the most part.

The lack of any real customization on part of the weapon seals doesn't help matters much either. Too many redundant seals and inflated weapon ranks with unnecessary duplicates. At least throw in a passive effect or something if you do that. Really there's no reason to use a weapon that has less attack, less slots, and weaker element level, when there's a weapon that has the exact same appearance, and just higher base stats over it.

Really the best thing would be to initially limit a given character's choices for a secondary weapon, while making full access to all weapons a later bonus. And at the same time, provide a means for a character to possess abilities that encourage a play style or adds something that makes them stand out more from someone else.

The entire use any weapon thing would be better suited for a custom character. Implement a class system to handle weapon proficiency and access to abilities, and you got something strong going.

Of course, this doesn't mean I don't get my fill of screwing around with the system. It just could've been handled much better.
Edited by Daosiying, Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:14 am.
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Lil'Richard
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Eternally
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As it stands...I feel it is an enabler for the cloning problem. It does need polish. The secondary weapons needs a generic moveset for those who don't have it as a primary weapon. That may seem boring but I don't like having a sword or pike as a secondary weapon and move exactly like Sima Zhao and Guan Yu respectively.

I do like the idea though. It made gameplay a tad more interesting and unlocking upgraded weapons was great in Conquest Mode.
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Thee Yuan Shao
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AND PROM'S TOMORROW!
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I like it, though it could be better.

For example, Ex users should have their OWN unique moveset.

So if I use Lu Meng, he should have a unique moveset, or have more variation in his attack. If someone else uses Lu Meng's pike, then they will just use a generic moveset.
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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This is the first time I've seen people wanting generic movesets, but given the context, I guess I can see where they're coming from.

I didn't mind the weapon switch, but it does need some tweaking, and more unique movesets in the future, if Koei intends on using it again anytime soon. What I really enjoyed about it was that if I was forced to play a character that I didn't like their moveset of, it gave me the option to switch it out for a moveset that I did enjoy.

For example, Xu Chu and Huang Gai in their respective stories. Don't get me wrong, I like both characters' roles in their stories, but oh my god, I hate the club moveset. So much. Sure, I could suck it up and deal with it, or, I could take advantage of the new system and throw weapons I like on them, therefor making their stages even more enjoyable.

Of course, it enables lazy people like myself to not bother wanting to learn a new or more complicated moveset, like the Crossbow, but even when I did figure out how to use it, I still don't like the Crossbow moveset, so everytime I pull out Lian Shi, it's my chance to take advantage of the new system and try out different weapons for her.

It's not perfect, but I don't see why people hate it so adamantly. It's not the reason for clones, as there would have been clones ANYWAY even without the weapon switch. Why people think otherwise is beyond me- DW6 didn't have weapon switch, but it still had clones.
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LoW
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Legend
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I have to agree with pretty much everything which has been said so far. The system itself isn't a bad idea and IMO, KOEI should have tried to make a use of it in earlier titles.

The current weapon switching system feels far from being perfect. Hell, while playing DW7 I can't help but to feel that KOEI implemented the system just for the heck of it. They didn't want to stick with DW6 Renbu system so they gave up on it and decided to bring back the ol' good Charge system from past games. However, obviously they didn't just want to copy and paste it and they had to spice it up somehow. Their solution was weapon switching.

Granted, it does make the battles feels better when you're able to use more than one moveset, not to mention that you can change between all weapon types even while playing the stages. Sword and bow don't suit you? Well, go ahead and try Spear and Pike instead. Don't like those either? Then how about arm cannon and twin axes? Combinations are endless and for this I have to give KOEI some credit. It definitely helps in playing with characters who rarely are popular among players (Xu Zhu or Huang Gai, for example).

However, as it has been pointed out, this results characters having exactly same movesets excluding EX and Musou attacks. It doesn't make things much better that the awesome skill trees from DW6 have been replaced with much smaller and more generics ones. Sharing the same movesets actually wouldn't feel so bad if the game featured more character-specific skills and passive abilities.

They "decloned" a few characters in DW7XL but does that really make any kind of difference? Sure Zhao Yun is now the only character with EX Dragon Spear but guess what? His EX and Musou attacks haven't changed from DW7. No changes at all. So in the end, they didn't really "declone" anyone but just added new weapon types for players to use. That's what even the official XL site says.

With the current system, clones will remain in the series forever and I don't mind it at all. However, what does bother me is that clone issue doesn't only concern movesets but also characters. If I'm playing as Gan Ning, then make it feel like I'm Gan Ning by giving me unique speed and pirate related abilities which other characters cannot use.

In short: Improve those skill trees. Now.
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D4N
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Wu's Asset
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I find it pointless, I never use it, it don't like using weapons that don't belong to characters probably due to OCD. I'm not saying it should be scrapped but I just don't use it.
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Fūma
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The Dragon Has Returned
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I think the weapon switching was just an easy way to add truckload of characters without too much work. I mean there are over 60 characters yet only 36 movesets. It should be the other way around.

If it's too hard to make everyone unique then just cut the number of character altogether. However, we all know most (but not all) disagree with that idea so it's not gonna happen.

Anyway, the weapon switching does have some pros too. Characters who previously had weak movesets can now be on par with others. And while we still have clones, there are at least ex-attacks and musous to spice thing up a bit (but sadly not enough).

In conclusion, it's neither a success or failure in my opinion. What they need to do is to make every weapon more diverse. With each weapon having the same controls and moveset "layout", they honestly are not that different from each other. A way to fix this would be to have different moveset-types (like in SW: normal, charge, special).
Edited by Fūma, Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:56 pm.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

It wasn't a bad idea, however, it brought use to more cloneage. Too many characters, not enough movesets to accommodate. And the EX didn't do enough unique justice.

One thing they can do, if they choose to keep the weapon switch system, is make the movesets variable from the other, or give a weapon similar to the second character's moveset. (ie: Ling Tong/Guan Suo-give nunchucks to Suo, Tong gets his DW6 stick back, or change the way the two move with nunchucks)

Then we just have decloning...alright...

So yes, I think weapon changing was a failure. It had the right intention, but all it did was further the problem with clones. And it's not like DW6 was any better as far as movesets went.
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leviathan
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Tiger General
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i love the weapon switch system and i hope it stays for dw8... hopefully for dw8 they make a moveset for everyone and that way there will be no clones but you can still weapon swap... that should probably keep everyone happy :2up: :2up: :2up:
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ViewRoyale
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General
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It's a cool idea but it definitely gave Koei an excuse to bring back the cloning! I'd like it to stay but for DW8 it's a must that we get a weapon for each character.
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SnowMan
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"This is no good, no good at all."
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ChibiGingi
Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:58 pm
It's not perfect, but I don't see why people hate it so adamantly. It's not the reason for clones, as there would have been clones ANYWAY even without the weapon switch. Why people think otherwise is beyond me- DW6 didn't have weapon switch, but it still had clones.
This 100%. KOEI wasn't sitting in their evil laboratories saying "Hmm, weapon switch will give us the opportunity to unload more clones! Yes, we love it!" They weren't being "lazy", they probably incorporated the system due to the fact that weapons were shared and they felt it helped add more depth to the combat. In DW8 I hope everyone is decloned but the weapon switch needs to stay.

DW7 without the weapon switch wouldn't have been nearly as fun, plain and simple. I swear, sometimes with I feel like this community hates progress. They added something new, something different and people ***** about it.
Edited by SnowMan, Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:06 am.
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MarQ
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Tiger General
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In my honest opinion, Weapon switch is a nice add to the series, though it makes most of the characters clones. Because of Weapon switch I can perform lots and lots of combos, which I think is a very good advantage when playing on Chaos difficulty.
It can also make me have a laugh when for example playing as Zhang Fei, supposed to be a tough warrior and then switch to Claws and then attack from the horse, I can't anything else but laugh a little :XD
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ViewRoyale
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General
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^^ An easy remedy to the combo idea is just to keep that "R1" attack -- wouldn't exactly be hard, just use that same weapon attack but have it not end with a switch to a different weapon.
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JasBell
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Death is only a natural cause of the Battlefield.
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I say the weapon switch is a success as it is something new and different and without it I wouldn't had fully enjoyed DW7. Sure, the characters lose a bit of their uniqueness thanks to everyone can use the same weapon but in the long run it was clever of Koei to add this feature onto their game. With a game having 60+ characters and possibly more counting when DW8 release in a couple of years, every character may not have enough time to be fully develop moveset wise and this is when the weapon switch comes into play. Call it being lazy but I think Koei had invented a way that some of the characters won't be ignored when it come to movesets, it's long term planning in my opinion.

I honestly believe that the weapon switch feature is here to stay. I know not everyone is going to like it but we as fans of Koei complain about change and something new and this is one of these changes that Koei has given us.

Besides, you don't necessarily have to use the weapon switch if you don't want to, am I right?
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ChibiGingi
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Booyaka, Booyaka
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SnowMan
Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:04 am
ChibiGingi
Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:58 pm
It's not perfect, but I don't see why people hate it so adamantly. It's not the reason for clones, as there would have been clones ANYWAY even without the weapon switch. Why people think otherwise is beyond me- DW6 didn't have weapon switch, but it still had clones.
This 100%. KOEI wasn't sitting in their evil laboratories saying "Hmm, weapon switch will give us the opportunity to unload more clones! Yes, we love it!" They weren't being "lazy", they probably incorporated the system due to the fact that weapons were shared and they felt it helped add more depth to the combat. In DW8 I hope everyone is decloned but the weapon switch needs to stay.

DW7 without the weapon switch wouldn't have been nearly as fun, plain and simple. I swear, sometimes with I feel like this community hates progress. They added something new, something different and people ***** about it.
Some people don't like change, even if it's innovative or necessary for the series to progress without getting too stale. I'm on the fence, so long as I understand the reasoning for the change and how it's implemented. I understood the change that happened in DW6, but I found the execution of Renbu was just downright bad and should have been expanded and tweaked, instead of getting rid of it entirely. Not to mention we lost some good ideas for weapons, even if they didn't fit the characters.

Ball and chain could have gone to someone else (well, technically it did, but why Cao Ren?), Lu Xun's sword-dance moveset may not fit Lu Xun but it could be reused for another character. Lu Bu's halberd-shuriken was so badass that Lu Bu was hardly worthy of it, but was that any need to get rid of it? NO.

I think if Koei had brought more of those weapons into DW7 and still have kept the weapon switch, but weapon switch has nothing to do with why those weapons haven't returned (yet). If there were more weapons than 36, then I'm sure there wouldn't be as many people bitching about the weapon switch feature as there are now.
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Shigeharu
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Fear cuts deeper than swords.
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ChibiGingi
Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:01 pm
If there were more weapons than 36, then I'm sure there wouldn't be as many people bitching about the weapon switch feature as there are now.
You've hit the nail on the head. I don't think most of the complaints about weapon switching are an issue of "they changed it, now it sucks." It's an issue of "they changed it and the idea might be decent but the implementation needs some work."
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Yunchan
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Tiger General
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I liked it but more could be done to make different characters wielding the same weapon different, like airlifting the special skills system from DW6 empires or the similar system in Ninety nine nights 2 (and Koei's own Zill O'll).
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kaiosuke37
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Sun Chen
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I think it was a success. I would hope that they continue this in the future.

Believe it or not, if you use the switching property correctly, it's not the matter of everyone doing the same thing. Most people use weapons for long periods of time without switching, making it extremely dull whenever you're switching to other characters with the same default weapon.

The idea Koei was going for is switching periodically between weapons making you attacks seem customized. The switch attacks also add variety to that as well. Doing that definitely keeps the movesets somewhat fresh.

If people are just playing for the weapons, I would just consider not using other weapons at all. Because of that, everything would become tedious faster.
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Xiuzhao
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----
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Shigeharu
Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:05 pm
ChibiGingi
Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:01 pm
If there were more weapons than 36, then I'm sure there wouldn't be as many people bitching about the weapon switch feature as there are now.
You've hit the nail on the head. I don't think most of the complaints about weapon switching are an issue of "they changed it, now it sucks." It's an issue of "they changed it and the idea might be decent but the implementation needs some work."
Pretty much this. Weapon switching is a good idea, but only one moveset per weapon really hurt its chances at being great.
Edited by Xiuzhao, Thu Nov 3, 2011 10:53 pm.
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LLSmoothJ
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That Daqiao Musou!
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Xiuzhao
Thu Nov 3, 2011 10:53 pm
Shigeharu
Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:05 pm
ChibiGingi
Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:01 pm
If there were more weapons than 36, then I'm sure there wouldn't be as many people bitching about the weapon switch feature as there are now.
You've hit the nail on the head. I don't think most of the complaints about weapon switching are an issue of "they changed it, now it sucks." It's an issue of "they changed it and the idea might be decent but the implementation needs some work."
Pretty much this. Weapon switching is a good idea, but only one moveset per weapon really hurt its chances at being great.
Back in DW5, some weapons were basically the same with (IIRC) even the same S-string(Ruler Moveset, Guan Yu/Zhang Liao, etc), but the charges were different enough to make the weapon their own. If they could do that, why can't they do the same now?
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garnix
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Legend
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LLSmoothJ
Thu Nov 3, 2011 11:03 pm
Xiuzhao
Thu Nov 3, 2011 10:53 pm
Shigeharu
Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:05 pm
ChibiGingi
Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:01 pm
If there were more weapons than 36, then I'm sure there wouldn't be as many people bitching about the weapon switch feature as there are now.
You've hit the nail on the head. I don't think most of the complaints about weapon switching are an issue of "they changed it, now it sucks." It's an issue of "they changed it and the idea might be decent but the implementation needs some work."
Pretty much this. Weapon switching is a good idea, but only one moveset per weapon really hurt its chances at being great.
Back in DW5, some weapons were basically the same with (IIRC) even the same S-string(Ruler Moveset, Guan Yu/Zhang Liao, etc), but the charges were different enough to make the weapon their own. If they could do that, why can't they do the same now?
It's a good idea. They could go back to the roots even more, but changing the way it works ;)

What I think would be a nice improvement too is giving 3 EX moves to all the characters. Something like 1 power up, 1 crow clearing, 1 throwing move.
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kaiosuke37
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Sun Chen
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I would rather them stick to the DLC decision, and declone them completely like they already are.

I'm actually surprised not even Lu Bu's DW6 weapon hasn't made it's way in yet. Considering how well the previous weapon DLC has done, I hope for more of them to come.
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Wild Lion
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Legend
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I too would love to see the DW6 weapons return, especially Lu Bu's cross halberd, Lu Xun's dancing sword and Gan Ning's daggers.

I also think Renbu had a lot of potential if they developed it. It was really neat to basically have each character with 2 movesets, one for normal attacks and one for special attacks. It's too bad the fan reaction was so bad they scrapped all of it, even the good parts like running charge attacks, rolls and throws.
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kaiosuke37
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Sun Chen
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Black Lion
Thu Nov 3, 2011 11:31 pm
I too would love to see the DW6 weapons return, especially Lu Bu's cross halberd, Lu Xun's dancing sword and Gan Ning's daggers.

I also think Renbu had a lot of potential if they developed it. It was really neat to basically have each character with 2 movesets, one for normal attacks and one for special attacks. It's too bad the fan reaction was so bad they scrapped all of it, even the good parts like running charge attacks, rolls and throws.
agreed. I was one of the few that enjoyed it.
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