Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Hello and welcome to KOEI Warriors (Forum), the official leading Rank 1 forum of ZetaBoards free online service of thousands of message boards aimed at video gaming; specifically the best KOEI TECMO fan site online! With over 35,000 forum members already a part of the community and millions of comments recorded! Thank you for visiting, we hope you enjoy the message board!

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. By signing up and experiencing KOEI Warriors message board you will have access to features that are member-only such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, voting in recognized polls, and more importantly discussion and the latest news from KOEI TECMO with fellow fans of their products. Our Members Only section via joining will grant you KOEI Warriors graphics, downloads and more.

We also have social network pages on Facebook, Twitter and a videos channel on YouTube, so please find us there.

If you need any help please don't hesitate to ask a member of staff/moderator. Thank you.


Regards,
KOEI Warriors Staff Team


Join our community at KOEI Warriors (Forum)!

Already a member? Welcome back, please login here and enjoy KOEI Warriors (Forum).

Username:   Password:
Poll Only
Weapon Switching; Success or failure?
Topic Started: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:54 am (4,259 Views)
Wynter
Member Avatar
#YAAAS
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Good Points: It helped some of the characters that had weaker and crap movesets.

Bad Points: It ruined character uniqueness. Clones gang bang.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Deleted User
Deleted User

I think it's a good idea, but they should add more EX and musou attacks for that the characters can be even more unique than now. If each character has a total of four EX attacks, that would be better. They can keep this system, but it should be improved.
Goto Top
 
annastrife
Member Avatar
Qiao's Butler
[ *  *  * ]
Well Firstly I think it was suck but after I played it awhile and then hey! I love this system... It's fun having my Lovely Xiao Qiao Berserkly using Lu Bu's Halberd and Swiftly using Katanas, and ummm Throwing Enemies like a pillow with Gloves... Clone? I'd never care about that... I agree with most of you, it only need a more spice...

Mine are like more EX Attack, More Musou Variation, and also variation of passive skill for each character when using it's original weapon...
Edited by annastrife, Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:02 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Saber
Member Avatar
Slashitty slash slash
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
It depends on the person playing the game, actually. Weapon-switching gives the game a whole new level of freedom and customization, which is good, but also, it's bad in a way.

Even if the character has an EX attack and 2 Musou attacks to themselves, it doesn't count much as to making the character "unique". And when you are able to select any weapon you want, each character just feels like a "skin".

Half the fun about playing a Warriors game is finding a way to utilize a weak character to its fullest potential. When you are stuck to one weapon, you have to learn how to use it effectively. But with weapon switching, you can just equip some overpowered weapon like the Halberd and every stage will feel like a breeze.

What makes it worse is that even though a character had a set proficiency to each weapon, the Master Seal negated those proficiencies. Power-oriented characters like Guan Ping can now use Speed weapons with much ease with attack-cancelling, and Speed-oriented characters can now clear crowds much easier with the Whirlwind effect on Power weapons.

Though many would say it was a success, I say it was a failure. It made the game too easy for many players, and sometimes, a little restriction goes a long way. ;)
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Jorgh
Member Avatar
Beecha-tard~<3
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I absolutely love it. It's fun choosing a secondary weapon for the characters based on what you think would suit them. The extra customization is wonderful. My only complaint about the system was the proficiency and it pleases me greatly that XL made a work around for that. First thing I did with all my cash I had built up was start maxing speed & power with everyone.

To me the characters aren't any less unique, but then I'm a DW Gundam fan and I'm used to the pilots being able to use any mech they want. It's pretty much the same thing. Mix & match and have fun.

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Daikyō
Member Avatar
I'm ready to serve you all

Well i think weapon switching system is a good system, although it would've been better if all characters having unique weapons and moveset without clones.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Kalina91
Member Avatar
Han's Unifier
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Weapon switching is ok. I like the idea but it did seem like clones happen because of it. In DW7, there were some limits as to what weapons a character to use but in XL everyone and use everything.

If weapon switching is in, I'm thinking they should do something like they did with the greatsword and whip. Make it unacccesible to some characters. Like for example say Zhang Fei's weapon require 80 power, those who doesn't have 80 power won't be able to use it.

What I'm hoping out of this is that hopefully every character won't have the same access to the same weapon and instead each character would have a set of weapons they will be able to use. Because I know in my experience, I set Bombs to everyone in order to maximize their stats.
Edited by Kalina91, Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:11 am.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SnowMan
Member Avatar
"This is no good, no good at all."
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Yuuhi Aogiri
Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:08 pm
1 - Even if the character has an EX attack and 2 Musou attacks to themselves, it doesn't count much as to making the character "unique". And when you are able to select any weapon you want, each character just feels like a "skin".

2 - Half the fun about playing a Warriors game is finding a way to utilize a weak character to its fullest potential. When you are stuck to one weapon, you have to learn how to use it effectively. But with weapon switching, you can just equip some overpowered weapon like the Halberd and every stage will feel like a breeze.

3 - What makes it worse is that even though a character had a set proficiency to each weapon, the Master Seal negated those proficiencies. Power-oriented characters like Guan Ping can now use Speed weapons with much ease with attack-cancelling, and Speed-oriented characters can now clear crowds much easier with the Whirlwind effect on Power weapons.

4 - Though many would say it was a success, I say it was a failure. It made the game too easy for many players, and sometimes, a little restriction goes a long way. ;)
Just like to rebut some things using the mindset I use going into this game:

1 - Not everyone who plays these games plays them for the movesets. Most of the time I play as a character because I want to use that character. Sure, sometimes I have an itch to play with a particular MS, so I'll use the character which the MS belongs. But most of my choices are character-based. For example, I like Xu Zhu and no matter what his EX MS is or what weapon he uses, I'm going to play as him regardless because I want to use him. So the "skin" argument doesn't really apply to people like me. That's the main reason I didn't have a big problem with DW6 compared to other users.

2 - And that's the thing, equipping the halberd on Xiao Qiao because you don't like her and you want to breeze through a stage isn't what I do. Even though you can do that, that isn't something that even crosses my mind when I think about the weapon switch. Like Jorgh said, I give my characters their EX weapon and a secondary that I feel would be realistic for them to use. It ties into my first point, I'll play as someone like Xiao regardless of her moveset, even if I hate it, if I want to play as her.

3 - That's some of the freedom you were talking about, letting every character have access to almost every weapon.

4 - It made the game too easy for lazy people. If you went out of your way to abuse the system to make the game easier for yourself that was your fault, not the weapon switch system's. Don't blame the system because you wanted to blow through the game. Used right, the system is incredible and one of the best additions ever added to the franchise IMO.

But yeah, that's how I feel, at any rate.
Edited by SnowMan, Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:34 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Benzod
Member Avatar
All Tai'd Up
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I've said it many times before and it looks like I'll have to say it again. The main feature of weapon system is the freedom to choose, and that's not just restricted to choosing weapons. It also offers different ways to play use the system itself. You can play with two weapons together, using the switch attacks to create new complex combos. Or you can switch occasionally switch weapons to vary the gameplay as you go. Or you can even just completely ignore it and just equip each character with their Ex weapon and play it as you would any other warriors game. Or you can pick the idiotic way and just equip everyone with the same powerful weapon and breeze through the game as a fun sponging completionist.

At the end of the day, it's all down to the player.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Zillion
Soldier
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Having to restrict yourself and ignoring the options Koei have put there for you to use to even enjoy the gameplay...doesn't sound right to me. Sure, the player chooses the weapons, but why would Koei want to have this sorta thing in their own game anyway? Should a player even have the option of being able to abuse something so overpowering?

It reminds me a little of the Dragonball Z Budokai Tenkaichi games, where a lot of the characters feel incredibly samey, yet a couple of the moves have different colours, sfx, and quotes to differentiate them. The characters in those games are sorta like the characters in DW7 - they're skins, really. The freedom is nice, great even...at first. It gets old quickly and the characters just don't feel as unique as they used to, making them less likeable than they used to be (keep in mind I'm talking solely about the gameplay here) Part of the reason is also because gamers are looking for more bang for their buck these days, this feature makes the game seem more shallow than it really is.

If they want freedom, then expand on the movesets - make them more fluid and have more interesting links and cancels, coupled with a deeper combat system (a skills system? Dynamic in-battle mechanics like combo breaking? The list goes on and on...)
Edited by Zillion, Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:00 am.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Benzod
Member Avatar
All Tai'd Up
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Adnan
Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:55 pm
Having to restrict yourself and ignoring the options Koei have put there for you to use to even enjoy the gameplay...doesn't sound right to me. Sure, the player chooses the weapons, but why would Koei want to have this sorta thing in their own game anyway? Should a player even have the option of being able to abuse something so overpowering?
But if it's restrictions that would be in place whether the system was there or not, then surely it shouldn't make that much of a difference if that's the way the player would rather play. People have the freedom to use it as much or as little as possible.

Quote:
 
If they want freedom, then expand on the movesets - make them more fluid and have more interesting links and cancels, coupled with a deeper combat system (a skills system? Dynamic in-battle mechanics like combo breaking? The list goes on and on...)
I agree there lots of other things they can do to improve the combat system, but surely there's a place for weapon switching to exist alongside other options.
It's all a matter of finding how various components can work together to create a deeper and more free and variable style of gameplay.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Zillion
Soldier
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Restrictions, more concrete differences between the characters, would better define as unique characters worth remembering. The lack of this feeling of "hey, this guy is completely different to that guy" alone, is enough to put me (and others, it seems) off. Don't get me wrong, I always use certain weapons wth certain characters - e.g. Sun Shang Xiang with her Wheels and the Bow - but simple fact that I could easily switch to, say, Liu Bei, give him the Wheels and the Bow, and play virtually the same game really annoys me.

Perhaps if it wasn't the only gameplay problem, I'd be less annoyed though...
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SnowMan
Member Avatar
"This is no good, no good at all."
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Adnan
Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:37 am
Restrictions, more concrete differences between the characters, would better define as unique characters worth remembering. The lack of this feeling of "hey, this guy is completely different to that guy" alone, is enough to put me (and others, it seems) off. Don't get me wrong, I always use certain weapons wth certain characters - e.g. Sun Shang Xiang with her Wheels and the Bow - but simple fact that I could easily switch to, say, Liu Bei, give him the Wheels and the Bow, and play virtually the same game really annoys me.

Perhaps if it wasn't the only gameplay problem, I'd be less annoyed though...
Why does it annoy you? You don't actually give Liu Bei those weapons, do you? If not then you don't have to worry about them being too similar since in your copy of the game, they're not. Mine too. Just because it COULD be done doesn't mean the system is terrible, especially when we don't use it that way.

If you do it that way and you genuinely enjoy it, then good for you. But to screw both camps over by taking the weapon switch out because people are complaining about what COULD be done isn't fair to anyone.
Edited by SnowMan, Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:05 am.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
ThreeKingdomsWarrior
Member Avatar
Legend
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
A big amount of points for the posts of Snowman and all the other ones, which support this system (that doesn't mean i don't respect the opinions of non-supporters).

I had something on my mind lately:

Omega Force Programmer: "I'm finished with the game. Take a look."
Omega Force Boss: "Hmmm...yeah. Looks really fine. Like i expected. Only thing that bothers me, is that we have again a massive amount of clones. But what can we do? We are running out of time. Hmmmmm...that's it. Maybe we should create a weapon-switch-feature. And this will be a priced DLC. So everyone can decide if they want it or not."
OF Programmer: "Great idea. But i wouldn't make it a DLC."
OF Boss: "Huh? Why?"
OF Programmer: "Knowing the fans, they will surely complain, WHY SUCH A FEATURE WASN'T INCLUDED TO THE GAME IN THE FIRST PLACE, instead of forcing them to buy it."
OF Boss: "Hm, yeah. You're right. So, then let's begin creating it. I think the time we have is sufficient."
OF Programmer: "OK. Uhm...Boss. Can i get a promotion now?"
Edited by ThreeKingdomsWarrior, Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:24 am.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Zillion
Soldier
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
@SnowMan: It annoys me for gameplay reasons because, like I said, it just makes the characters feel shallow. Even when you force certain weapons on yourself, between switch attacks, EX attacks, and two movesets, characters virtually don't have weak points anymore, they can cover moreorless every base somewhat well. It makes everyone feel even more similar than they look. The simple fact that you have to restrict yourself to such a degree just to enjoy yourself doesn't seem inherantly right to me - a lame reason, maybe, and I respect the point you implied about others having no problem with this system and taking it out would annoy them, but a lot (though not everyone) seems to share my view on this.

@ThreeKingdomsWarrior: Weapon Switching as DLC would be interesting - though, it's an extremely game-changing aspect, and I've never seen anyone release such a drastic gameplay mechanic paid DLC for a game ever. There's a first time for everything I suppose. It'd be funny if the Omega Force team note how much we, collectively as a fan base, whine so much (but not indicative of every individual...not me though, I complain a lot lol)
Edited by Zillion, Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:02 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
ThreeKingdomsWarrior
Member Avatar
Legend
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
@ Adnan:
Yeah, that's actually true. It would be really to big of a feature to be a DLC. That was more a what-if scenario. It could have been really worse, if there wouldn't be such a feature.
And it's OK to complain :hehe:. As long as you respect other opinions, which you clearly do :smile:.

I think this feature will stay for a longer time. If there are spies from Koei in this Site, they would see the results of this Topic, which show a clear difference.
Edited by ThreeKingdomsWarrior, Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:20 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SnowMan
Member Avatar
"This is no good, no good at all."
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
@Adnan - I'd rather have the freedom to choose to restrict myself than to be forced to because there's only one option. KOEI used to force you to play as one moveset; I'd much rather have more than one option when playing the game.

I think the best way to sum up weapon switch is that if you don't like it, don't use it. You can play DW7/XL exactly the same way as you've always played DW games. Weapon switching doesn't affect you at all. You just use the EX MS like the old games and nothing is different for you. But for the rest of us, it opens many different and enjoyable possibilities. It just wouldn't make sense to take out a feature that is optional to use for the people who don't like it just because THEY don't want to use it. That just comes off as selfish.

I'm not saying you're selfish, Adnan, but that's just how I feel in the general sense.
Edited by SnowMan, Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:23 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
cooljosh21
Member Avatar
Realest/Best
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
It was a fail. No wait EPIC FAIL! Why? Because it was obvious it was gonna promote clones. I keep saying this but no one seems to get it. If we knew Koei would have every unique, sure woohoo weapon switch, but I knew from the start this was gonna happen. Now people beg to have their favorites unique. :facepalm:
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Daosiying
道士英
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
SnowMan
Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:20 pm
@Adnan - I'd rather have the freedom to choose to restrict myself than to be forced to because there's only one option. KOEI used to force you to play as one moveset; I'd much rather have more than one option when playing the game.

I think the best way to sum up weapon switch is that if you don't like it, don't use it. You can play DW7/XL exactly the same way as you've always played DW games. Weapon switching doesn't affect you at all. You just use the EX MS like the old games and nothing is different for you. But for the rest of us, it opens many different and enjoyable possibilities. It just wouldn't make sense to take out a feature that is optional to use for the people who don't like it just because THEY don't want to use it. That just comes off as selfish.

I'm not saying you're selfish, Adnan, but that's just how I feel in the general sense.
But that right there sounds just as selfish.

Rather than coming to an agreement with an argument, it just comes off as a half-assed solution that grants full benefit for those in favor and little for those who oppose.

This whole freedom and "optional" thing is honestly a terrible argument to start with. There's a difference between providing a player choice, and the game designer just copping out with an easy solution that wasn't fleshed out.

Not so much a problem of freedom, as it is just being aware that the whole thing was haphazardly handled and acknowledging it rather than just having the mentality that there's just some haters and such around.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
SnowMan
Member Avatar
"This is no good, no good at all."
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What? It's not selfish for everyone to get what they want, so you're going to have to explain that one to me. You guys get to play the way you want to, and we get to play the way we want. If you can explain how the "everybody wins" mentality is selfish, please, feel free.

Just because you were disgusted with it doesn't mean it's a fact, nor does it mean I have to be "aware" that it was horrible. I disagree completely. Not everyone who enjoys the system believes that it was terrible. There might be, you know, some people that felt it improved the game and added to it. Sure, I can believe it was a last-minute addition when they saw how many clones they were shipping the game with, but it ended up giving the game more gameplay depth than it's ever had.

And also, I'm not saying the system shouldn't be touched upon when DW8 rolls around. There's ALWAYS room for improvement. But taking it out because some people thought this optional feature was bad is a waste.

We can sit here and debate all day about something like Renbu and neither of us would be right, since that was something that directly affected the both of us. But the weapon switch doesn't. Sure, you can hate it. But if you don't have to use it, why take it out when there are people who enjoy it?
Edited by SnowMan, Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:28 am.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Saber
Member Avatar
Slashitty slash slash
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Weapon-switching gives us option and freedom, but the thing is, players abuse that freedom. ;)

With weapon-switching, anybody can be powerful. You don't have to learn how to use a specific weapon. You can just equip Lu Bu's Halberd and go through stages like a breeze.

And that's the thing that makes weapon-switching flawed. It isn't clones or lack of movesets, it's the abuse of weapon usage. DW6 didn't have weapon-switching, yet clones were abundant in that game. You could still have a weapon-switching feature if everybody has their own unique moveset.

Now, the weapon proficiency levels in DW7 were supposed to limit that abuse, but the Master Seal counters it completely. And now in XL, ou can maximize the proficiencies and use any weapon to your liking, which is what I call abuse. ;)

If it so happens that weapon-switching is removed, I admit, I will kind of miss it, because it did give some variety in gameplay. But I'll be glad that no one would abuse that kind of freedom for sure.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Sera
Member Avatar
Legend
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I dislike that weapon switching, at least as it is in DW7, makes characters lose their "feel". I mean, for example, that I don't like Da Qiao running like a man because the Iron Fans moveset must "suit" male characters, too. And no, I don't think that a male and female differentiation between movesets or weapons would be enough. I want Da Qiao to run like Da Qiao, not like a generic female character, not like sexy Zhen Ji, not like spunky Xiao Qiao, not like "wild" Zhu Rong (of course Da Qiao is just an example, the same could go for any character).
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
ThreeKingdomsWarrior
Member Avatar
Legend
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sera
Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:01 pm
I dislike that weapon switching, at least as it is in DW7, makes characters lose their "feel". I mean, for example, that I don't like Da Qiao running like a man because the Iron Fans moveset must "suit" male characters, too. And no, I don't think that a male and female differentiation between movesets or weapons would be enough. I want Da Qiao to run like Da Qiao, not like a generic female character, not like sexy Zhen Ji, not like spunky Xiao Qiao, not like "wild" Zhu Rong (of course Da Qiao is just an example, the same could go for any character).
THAT's a good point, i admit. That is maybe the biggest thing i hated with that feature. They created every pose so, that every gender could look normal.
When i look at Sun Shang Xiang's wheel-pose, it looks not like her. Not like in the past, where she made those moves while posing. No male would fit that old pose. But the current pose fits male too. Or Zhen Ji. Her old pose looked much more feminine than her current one. That is something Koei has to work on. The poses should be more different form gender to gender. There should be 2 poses for every moveset.
Edited by ThreeKingdomsWarrior, Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:16 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
LoW
Member Avatar
Legend
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What's interesting is that both males and females have their own pose for Club weapon type. Males carry club on their shoulder while females drag it close to the ground. Makes you wonder why they bothered to do this only for Club type? That also raises another question: how come males can't use whips and females can't use great swords? Club proves that they could have easily fixed the poses.

Yuuhi
 
Now, the weapon proficiency levels in DW7 were supposed to limit that abuse, but the Master Seal counters it completely. And now in XL, ou can maximize the proficiencies and use any weapon to your liking, which is what I call abuse.

You could say that's my only problem with the system. Everyone able to use every weapon with max profiency. Yeah, i know, it's completely up to the player. But hey, if my Lu Bu has 3-star profiency with Iron Fan, I can't help but to use it :P . However, if it was 1-star and couldn't be improved, then I probably wouldn't even touch it even though I could.
Edited by LoW, Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:39 pm.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Saber
Member Avatar
Slashitty slash slash
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
As to the weapon poses, they could implement a system like DW: Online's.

Most weapons will have one pose, but most female weapons and some heavy weapons will have two poses, one for each gender. For example, the Twin Fans have a pose for each gender. Other weapons include the Iron Flute, the Dual Maces, and others which I forget. :P

LoW
 
However, if it was 1-star and couldn't be improved, then I probably wouldn't even touch it even though I could.
Well, yeah, me too. For me, I actually equip both weapon slots as the character's EX weapon (Chaos and Nightmare weapons) since I don't actually like the idea of my character weilding another person's weapon. (To me, it just doesn't seem right)
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Archives · Next Topic »
Poll Only

Composed & Designed by, ©KOEI Warriors, 2005-2017. All rights reserved.