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Sweet/New Moves!; My Hand Glows with an Awesome Power...
Topic Started: Tue Oct 1, 2013 6:20 pm (3,029 Views)
Kuroda
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wodash
Wed Oct 9, 2013 12:44 am
Kuroda
Tue Oct 8, 2013 3:42 pm
Would Bolt Gundam really be a heavyweight though?
it was in Battle assault, although in GM it would be awkwardly not-so-big, but then again so does the Power Golem in ACE3, small size doesn't really change the fact that it's a heavyweight unit

Just being heavy doesn't really have any impact in this game though.
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wodash
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Kuroda
Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:37 pm
Just being heavy doesn't really have any impact in this game though.
it does, The O can take a few light hits without being staggered, without defense reduction that comes with fighting spirit skill, ditto with several other heavyweights, so yeah.
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tyrox9
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Thought of some possible movesets for a couple units that should prolly be, or alread is confirmed.

Duel Gundam (Assault Shroud)
S-String: Kind of a standard Slashing combo, maybe use the second saber for the last hit of the combo.
C1: Beam Rifle.
C2: Guard Breaking Downward cross-slash witht wo sabers.
C3: Shield Charge Dash.
C4: Double railgun Shots.
C5: jumps slightly,Pulls out bazooka, blasting the ground a few times to knock enemies up. (be hilarious if they actually give mention to the bazooka xD)
C6: Assault Burst (Leaps backwards slightly, firing Beam Rifle Shot, Railgun Shot, 5 missiles)
D-String: Kick-> heavy saber swing-> follow up swing-> DC: dashing saber thrust.
G-SP: Sheds Assault Shroud Armor, performs a powerful dashing shield charge. Lvl 3: Adds a leaping dual saber slash, and Stab. (AS Armor reappears afterwards)
A-SP: slowly flies forwards, firing railgun angled down forward constantly, each shot having small splash damage when it lands.
C-SP: Fires grenade, creating a huge explosion.

Buster Gundam
S-String: Starts it punches and kick -> some weapon whips with rifle and gunlauncher -> combines weapons for astaff like weapon.
C1: beam Rifle
C2: Shoulder thrust (guard breaking)
C3: 3 spreading Gunlauncher shots.
C4: sniper rifle shot.
C5: jumps up, fires shotgun down at the ground, blasting enemies up.
C6: Fires 12 missiles forward
D-String: Straight Punch-> follow up punch-> shoulder thrust -> DC: fires beam rifle and gunlauncher forward.
G-SP: barrage fires beam rifle and gunlauncher continuously, alternating between shots.
A-SP: Large Sniper rifle beam
C-SP: barraging scatter shots from shotgun.

lol. i have too much time on my hands xD.
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Kuroda
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wodash
Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:33 am
Kuroda
Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:37 pm
Just being heavy doesn't really have any impact in this game though.
it does, The O can take a few light hits without being staggered, without defense reduction that comes with fighting spirit skill, ditto with several other heavyweights, so yeah.
Hmm...I've never really noticed any difference.
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Ma Su
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I hope the Bolinoak Sammahn returns with a heavier focus on using the length of it's beam saber/tomahawk. Also, Rezin's Geara Doga, if it gets in, clearly needs to focus on the beam saber function this time!
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Toramaru
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I just had to pop on here to respond about something posted a while ago by tyrox.

I have to absolutely disagree about what was said about Gundam Wing. In particular, Heero vs Milliardo: Heero was shown at least twice to be highly skilled with a sword outside of his MS(an expert fencer, as a matter of fact) whereas Milliardo was never shown as capable of using one at all. Nevermind the fact that Heero repeatedly fell back on the melee capability of whatever MS he was piloting(Wing, Zero, Mercurius, Leo, HeavyArms, etc.).

As far as Wing Zero being "mediocre" melee equipped? Ridiculous! Did you even watch Gundam Wing? The Wing Zero was pretty much considered the ultimate(albeit evil) mecha in every way: Melee, Shooting, Defense, etc. It was actually pretty much indestructible in the series(though this was vastly ignored in EW), and could've easily crushed the Deathscythe Hell even when piloted by a nobody!

It's also a common misconception that Wing Zero relied on the TBR, as neither Wing nor Zero could use their Rifles indefinitely. The Wing's Buster Rifle could only be fired like seven times at full-charge before it was useless; the same limitation was applied to Zero's TBR(fourteen separately, seven simultaneously). The Buster Rifle, and subsequently the TBR, were not the suits' primary weapon but meant to be used for a large attack, such as thinning the mobs.

Btw, The EW Wing Zero, I would argue, would be even "more" melee oriented than its series' counterpart as the TBR was only used to pierce the bunker and not at all in combat.

In the Gundam Wing universe, Heero was definitely the most skilled pilot and this was stated plainly several times. At the same time, Wing Zero was the most powerful MS, tied with Epyon.

Also, tyrox seems to have missed the entire point made in the final battle of Gundam Wing. The point was that this was a DUEL: Heero(Wing Zero) vs Milliardo(Epyon) to decide the future. Both duelists used what they were most-skilled with: their melee beam weapons. Neither had a true advantage, other than their personal skills: both MS were equipped with the Zero System, both using beam blades, both being nigh-indestructible. And, The winner of this duel was Heero!

There, Point made.


Now, On topic: I figure that Wing Zero will probably get a new C3 again(got a new one in GM2 and then again in GM3). As for what I'd like to see for Wing Zero is a very slight increase in attack-speed.

Also, About Deathscythe Hell: I actually really liked it in GM3 and thought its moveset was pretty good, but I could see it having more reach and maybe a couple of different charge attacks.

The HeavyArms: I don't think the kicks made much sense and the dash charge using the knife was about useless following its shot-based S-string. I think the dashing S-string should utilize the knife instead, with the charge attack firing rockets. Anyone else agree?

Btw, Anyone else exited about the addition of Akatsuki?

I'm also really stoked about the practical guarantee of Cagalli's addition!! I thought it stupid to make Lacus playable when she was never actually a pilot while they didn't include Cagalli despite her being a very skilled pilot, not quite Mu's level maybe but I digress.


--

Signed: ~Toramaru, "Hatred leads to nothing, and revenge brings only emptiness..."
Edited by Toramaru, Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:46 am.
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Ma Su
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And yet the Wing Zero has the worst Melee stats out of all the class 1 suits, it literally only beats the following suits (as of DWG2):

Palace Athene
Rick Dias
Jegan
Zeong
Nemo
Guncannon
GM II
GM Command
Gouf Flight Type
GM
MP Qubeley
Gaza D
Gaza C
Ball
Zaku Tank

15 suits, and none of them by more than 24 points. Also, Heero is 25th out of 39 pilots in melee, and even M'Quve is better (for that matter so is the Gyan). Now, I understand what you are saying but the numbers don't lie. Besides, this is a thread concerning the games, not the TV shows.
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Wild Lion
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Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:43 am
And yet the Wing Zero has the worst Melee stats out of all the class 1 suits...

15 suits, and none of them by more than 24 points. Also, Heero is 25th out of 39 pilots in melee, and even M'Quve is better (for that matter so is the Gyan). Now, I understand what you are saying but the numbers don't lie. Besides, this is a thread concerning the games, not the TV shows.
How many times have I been told this in these forums?

"The animation is canon" :rolleyes:
Edited by Wild Lion, Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:51 am.
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Ma Su
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And yet we are talking about moves from the game, so no the animation isn't canon, if it were the Gouf Flight Type would have a Gatling Gun, not a bazooka.
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Rakolai
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Toramaru
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 am
It's also a common misconception that Wing Zero relied on the TBR, as neither Wing nor Zero could use their Rifles indefinitely. The Wing's Buster Rifle could only be fired like seven times at full-charge before it was useless; the same limitation was applied to Zero's TBR(fourteen separately, seven simultaneously). The Buster Rifle, and subsequently the TBR, were not the suits' primary weapon but meant to be used for a large attack, such as thinning the mobs.
The twin buster rifles were powered by Wing Zero's own reactor instead of the energy tanks used by the rifle of the original Wing Gundam, meaning that they could fire as long as the suit had enough energy to keep running. And seeing as this isn't Gundam SEED where they had to worry about conserving power (at least until N-Jammer Cancellers became a thing), the pilot could theoretically just sit at a distance and shoot all day.

Of course, that would have made for a rather boring show, so the beam saber came into play a lot more often.
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tyrox9
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Rakolai
Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:02 am
Toramaru
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 am
It's also a common misconception that Wing Zero relied on the TBR, as neither Wing nor Zero could use their Rifles indefinitely. The Wing's Buster Rifle could only be fired like seven times at full-charge before it was useless; the same limitation was applied to Zero's TBR(fourteen separately, seven simultaneously). The Buster Rifle, and subsequently the TBR, were not the suits' primary weapon but meant to be used for a large attack, such as thinning the mobs.
The twin buster rifles were powered by Wing Zero's own reactor instead of the energy tanks used by the rifle of the original Wing Gundam, meaning that they could fire as long as the suit had enough energy to keep running. And seeing as this isn't Gundam SEED where they had to worry about conserving power (at least until N-Jammer Cancellers became a thing), the pilot could theoretically just sit at a distance and shoot all day.

Of course, that would have made for a rather boring show, so the beam saber came into play a lot more often.
Ya think :XD buster Rifles were the most boring thing to happen to gundam; after reccoa's dull feminism plight in Zeta, up til saji and louise's high school teen drama story in 00.

but yeah, remember in Endless waltz how all the gundam and talgeese III were running low on power/ammo in that ending fight, until heero showed up and (surprise) Buster Rifle'd the fortress? well Noin's taurus mook suit was there fighting all that time time too. so it it can be assumed that the gundams have the same power limit as those things, or Noin is just the best pilot in AC.
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Rakolai
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Deal with it.
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tyrox9
Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:06 pm
Rakolai
Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:02 am
Toramaru
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 am
It's also a common misconception that Wing Zero relied on the TBR, as neither Wing nor Zero could use their Rifles indefinitely. The Wing's Buster Rifle could only be fired like seven times at full-charge before it was useless; the same limitation was applied to Zero's TBR(fourteen separately, seven simultaneously). The Buster Rifle, and subsequently the TBR, were not the suits' primary weapon but meant to be used for a large attack, such as thinning the mobs.
The twin buster rifles were powered by Wing Zero's own reactor instead of the energy tanks used by the rifle of the original Wing Gundam, meaning that they could fire as long as the suit had enough energy to keep running. And seeing as this isn't Gundam SEED where they had to worry about conserving power (at least until N-Jammer Cancellers became a thing), the pilot could theoretically just sit at a distance and shoot all day.

Of course, that would have made for a rather boring show, so the beam saber came into play a lot more often.
Ya think :XD buster Rifles were the most boring thing to happen to gundam; after reccoa's dull feminism plight in Zeta, up til saji and louise's high school teen drama story in 00.

but yeah, remember in Endless waltz how all the gundam and talgeese III were running low on power/ammo in that ending fight, until heero showed up and (surprise) Buster Rifle'd the fortress? well Noin's taurus mook suit was there fighting all that time time too. so it it can be assumed that the gundams have the same power limit as those things, or Noin is just the best pilot in AC.
If I recall correctly, Deathsythe H's beam scythe has its own power source that can be recharged when not in use, so it was the weapon that ran out of power and not the suit itself. Heavyarms just ran out of bullets and missiles, which is no indication of how long its reactor would last. Same goes for Sandrock, which just had its weapons broken during the fight. None of these points show that they don't have any more power than the Taurus or Serpents.
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tyrox9
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Rakolai
Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:35 pm
tyrox9
Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:06 pm
Rakolai
Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:02 am
Toramaru
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:28 am
It's also a common misconception that Wing Zero relied on the TBR, as neither Wing nor Zero could use their Rifles indefinitely. The Wing's Buster Rifle could only be fired like seven times at full-charge before it was useless; the same limitation was applied to Zero's TBR(fourteen separately, seven simultaneously). The Buster Rifle, and subsequently the TBR, were not the suits' primary weapon but meant to be used for a large attack, such as thinning the mobs.
The twin buster rifles were powered by Wing Zero's own reactor instead of the energy tanks used by the rifle of the original Wing Gundam, meaning that they could fire as long as the suit had enough energy to keep running. And seeing as this isn't Gundam SEED where they had to worry about conserving power (at least until N-Jammer Cancellers became a thing), the pilot could theoretically just sit at a distance and shoot all day.

Of course, that would have made for a rather boring show, so the beam saber came into play a lot more often.
Ya think :XD buster Rifles were the most boring thing to happen to gundam; after reccoa's dull feminism plight in Zeta, up til saji and louise's high school teen drama story in 00.

but yeah, remember in Endless waltz how all the gundam and talgeese III were running low on power/ammo in that ending fight, until heero showed up and (surprise) Buster Rifle'd the fortress? well Noin's taurus mook suit was there fighting all that time time too. so it it can be assumed that the gundams have the same power limit as those things, or Noin is just the best pilot in AC.
If I recall correctly, Deathsythe H's beam scythe has its own power source that can be recharged when not in use, so it was the weapon that ran out of power and not the suit itself. Heavyarms just ran out of bullets and missiles, which is no indication of how long its reactor would last. Same goes for Sandrock, which just had its weapons broken during the fight. None of these points show that they don't have any more power than the Taurus or Serpents.
If they run out of weapon energy, ammo, or weapons break, that's really just as bad. if they run out of the power to keep fighting, then it's all to the same effect.
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Kuroda
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Salt-Upon-Wounds
Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:45 am
And yet we are talking about moves from the game, so no the animation isn't canon, if it were the Gouf Flight Type would have a Gatling Gun, not a bazooka.
I don't think you understand what Canon means. Canon refers to the original body of work that something came from.
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tyrox9
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Black Lion
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:50 am
Salt-Upon-Wounds
Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:43 am
And yet the Wing Zero has the worst Melee stats out of all the class 1 suits...

15 suits, and none of them by more than 24 points. Also, Heero is 25th out of 39 pilots in melee, and even M'Quve is better (for that matter so is the Gyan). Now, I understand what you are saying but the numbers don't lie. Besides, this is a thread concerning the games, not the TV shows.
How many times have I been told this in these forums?

"The animation is canon" :rolleyes:
And yet games can still take influence from the canon, to be accurate. Other body of works can be considered faithful, and accurate to canon, so long as they do not contradict the original body of work.

And considering Wing Zero's non-combo strong move list is essentially 90% Buster Rifles, including the fact Charge 6, G-SP, and A-SP being the same move, heero/WZ have very low melee skills to match his lack of melee ability in the show, and yet give him High defense to match the fact he couldnt dodge worth crap and just took hits and stood/floated his position, i'd say they pegged Heero/WZ pretty well.

I know a lot Wing fans have this idea of Heero as this skillfully omnipotent warrior god who can't be matched in any form of battle, and survives self destruction and hundreds of feets falls.. but that's just being blinded by the poor, inconsistent, Deus Ex machina filled writing, where things happen merely because they needed to. His only true melee accomplishment was beating Epyon, or rather cutting off it's arm and Zechs quitting. and there was never any kind of showing of him having that kind of ability 48 episodes before that. that isn't the foundation for great melee skills.
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:35 am.
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Re4_Wesker
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tyrox9
Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:31 am
And considering Wing Zero's non-combo strong move list is essentially 90% Buster Rifles, including the fact Charge 6, G-SP, and A-SP being the same move, heero/WZ have very low melee skills to match his lack of melee ability in the show, and yet give him High defense to match the fact he couldnt dodge worth crap and just took hits and stood/floated his position, i'd say they pegged Heero/WZ pretty well.
The high defense is simply because the Wing Zero could take a ton of hits without taking any damage. Seriously, they set bombs on the thing in a attempt to destroy it and it did nothing. I find the fact that it has low melee rather baffling given the fact that there really isn't a reason for it to be low. Its got a beam saber and could easily shield bash with what it has. Heck, a lot of people forget the fact that Milliardo piloted Wing Zero for a while and he did alright with it.

Really, they are just doing this stat build for Wing Zero because it reflects Heero and even then, i'd say its the way it is due to balancing. Still, there is room for buffs on this suit. Wing Zero has suffered a bit recently when compared to some other suits.

What i'm getting at here however is that Mobile Suit stats should not be dictated entirely on how they were used by their pilots. Just because Heero focused on the Buster Rifle doesn't mean that its melee based weaponry and capabilities would be complete trash. This was one of the reasons why I think a few charge attacks should be changed depending on who pilots the suit. if Milliardo or Char piloted Wing Zero ingame for example, it would use a few more melee based attacks.

Quote:
 
I know a lot Wing fans have this idea of Heero as this skillfully omnipotent warrior god who can't be matched in any form of battle, and survives self destruction and hundreds of feets falls.. but that's just being blinded by the poor, inconsistent, Deus Ex machina filled writing, where things happen merely because they needed to.


You could easily say that about a lot of Gundam series and fans. Heck, just swap "Wing" and "Heero" with "Seed" and "Kira" and it will be just as true.

To clarify however, I don't think Heero is the best pilot out there. I'd say he's alright at melee but there's tons of people better than him. Wufei for example knocked him around in EW pretty thoroughly. And in the below vid he does lose in a melee fight but that's really what i'm getting at here. He's okay but not great.

Quote:
 

His only true melee accomplishment was beating Epyon, or rather cutting off it's arm and Zechs quitting. and there was never any kind of showing of him having that kind of ability 48 episodes before that. that isn't the foundation for great melee skills.




Sure, he loses but that's aside the point. He dodges fairly well (yeah, he does know how to dodge) in this fight, and holds his ground against Milliardo for a while. He uses tactics to his advantage and they do work for a time. He even understands the fact that Milliardo intentionally gave him a few openings. I for one am not saying he's a melee god or anything though. I'm simply saying that his melee stat should be a bit higher than it is.
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Ma Su
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Kuroda
Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:58 pm
Salt-Upon-Wounds
Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:45 am
And yet we are talking about moves from the game, so no the animation isn't canon, if it were the Gouf Flight Type would have a Gatling Gun, not a bazooka.
I don't think you understand what Canon means. Canon refers to the original body of work that something came from.
I was pointing out that the games are not canon, so an argument about staying true to the anime isn't applicable. Furthering my argument, since this game isn't true to the animation it has its own canon. Within this new canon, a Zaku Tank can defeat the Dark Gundam, Ball can wipe its ass with the Alpha Azieru, and the Z'gok/Acguy SUCK! (I like both of them, as well as the Gogg and Zock)
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Atoric
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Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:44 am
Kuroda
Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:58 pm
Salt-Upon-Wounds
Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:45 am
And yet we are talking about moves from the game, so no the animation isn't canon, if it were the Gouf Flight Type would have a Gatling Gun, not a bazooka.
I don't think you understand what Canon means. Canon refers to the original body of work that something came from.
I was pointing out that the games are not canon, so an argument about staying true to the anime isn't applicable. Furthering my argument, since this game isn't true to the animation it has its own canon. Within this new canon, a Zaku Tank can defeat the Dark Gundam, Ball can wipe its ass with the Alpha Azieru, and the Z'gok/Acguy SUCK! (I like both of them, as well as the Gogg and Zock)
So by that logic M'quve is a useless fop, the Gyan is barely more than a mass produced piece of junk. And Rezin is a self important twit who falls over to the first skilled pilot she encounters in her must be special because being purple makes it better machine, if we're talking about the game.
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tyrox9
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To even begin comparing Heero to the likes of Amuro, kira, and other greats varied throughout the Gundamverse is a statement so unjust, it's ludicrous. Where to begin? i guess since it was decided to pick out kira, likely cause Im a fan of the CE, I'll jsut stick to him as my prime example.

The key difference between Heero and many other greats is while heero is merely stated to be some sort of greatly skilled pilot, characters like Amuro or Kira actually had shown prior their abilities to back up their greater accomplishments, rather than just having them do it, and the audience having to just believe it could happen.

Melee: Kira, even though mostly associated as a quick firing, precise ranged fighter, has shown vastly how talented in melee he is. he has many different styles of melee he has on multiple occasions shown forth, such as; Unarmed, Sword and Shield, Dual Wield Sword, back hand Style Sword, Double sided Sword, and great sword. throughout the show(s) kira has held his own, and even defeated various aces using melee. swiftly Slicing limbs off without a wasted movement, using knives to penetrate cockpits, slicing in half Spherical breakers. hell, he can even deflect ranged atatcks with his sword, barrage or rapid firing range attacks at that. So when Kira managed to match or defeat highly talent aces, using melee, like Crueset or Athrun, or even Shinn in Destiny, it's under a great context of accomplishment before that we can believe this.

Heero on the other hand's melee ability shown prior to his duel with Epyon mostly consisted of blocking/parrying single strikes with his sword, and hacking away at weak enemies, usually Leos, who really have no ability at all. it's like if Mario punched a bunch of Goombas and said he was a master in hand to hand combat. Heero never really fought aces too much, mostly fought basic mooks, and most fights with Aces usually didn't end with a conclusion, they jsut got interrupted before really taking off. thats the key showing of ability, and why Wing pilots are often seen has a lesser skilled cast, because you cant show great skill by killing a bunch of no names. if you dont have aces to fight frequently, and cant even have them conclude the few ace fights they do have, then you jut have basic pilots with overpowered units by comparison . barely a strong foundation to show that Heero has melee ability.

Range: A lot of characters dont get it as easy as others. While heero relied on buster Rifles, weapons he could just shoot giant beams to engulf mooks without aiming much, others had normal rifles, bazookas, weapons that took precise shots to hit a moving target. And being able to shoot enemies who seemingly slide around the battlefield like a waxed floor, like Doms or Bcues in the desert is a very strong accomplishment to just begin with. but lets look at Kira in the freedom gundam, basically the SEED equal to Wings Wing Zero. In that thing, Kira could quickly take aim, and lock onto 5 completely different targets, sometimes even more with weapon penetration, in a single burst, shoot down 5 enemies, non-lethally precise mind you, and sometimes he even immediately picked out his next targets, firing again, just chain of aim, lock on shoot, over and over again in seconds. Kira has also fought Mobile pods, Dragoons, funnel type weapons, small rapidly moving targets that surround and barrage their enemy. kira has dodged and fired back destroying many dragoons in a fight against Crueset. Heero in the Wing Zero in the time, if not longer, it takes kira to rapidly lock on and shoot multiple enemies in precise spots, Heero can aim at one target, barely moving, and not even fighting back, like a colony or a meteor, or a horde of leos, and just blast them with a big shot. Does that sound like skill? no it's just shooting a weapon that couldn't fail. Against an opponent who can move swiftly, and has the mind to dodge giant yellow beams heading towards him, this would never work.

Whats even less skilled then that? Holding your guns out and spinning around while shooting, maybe? Ok, so, to be fair, Heero is the only pilot of WZ to NOT do this tactic. regardless, the poor unit is stuck with this infamous technique as it's ultimate attack in various things, and does the unit's specs no justice.

I can definitively say Heero is possibly the weakest protagonist in all of gundams. even more so than likes of Shiro Amada or Kou uraki, who at least showed cleverness and wit in battles, to make the most of what limited vanilla arsenals their units had. And chances are somebody will throw out the typical argument that heero is quite powerful because he is a super human genetically enhanced. well, let me stop those tracks, because a lot of characters are super humans, and the good ones back it up. It doesn't matter Heero is super human if he never truly proves it means he is skilled. He may be super human, but that just makes him the worst super human ever enhanced.

Don't confuse an accomplishment with establishment.

woo. that came out a lot more Wall-ish than i expected. but dont confuse this as trashing Wing or anything, or some fan war. just debating.
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:46 pm.
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Joshelplex
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How is he even remotely weak? He routinely duels a top ace pilot to either a standstill (or wins, in the case of the finale) easily adapts to different suits instantly (Heavyarms, Mrercurius, Epyon) and has shown to be very capable at both ranged and melee combat repeatedly
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tyrox9
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SUPER!~ General
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really? Cause he got his butt handed to him in that HA vs T1 fight. not a moment he had control in that battle. he thought he was smart in masking his heat signature in the snow cloud, but the whole point of detecting heat signatures is for that very scenario he created, and naturally it didn't work. He got blasted several times in that fight, and to think if the T1's Dobergun was even a basic beam rifle, and not a shell weapon, he would of died almost instantly. Zechs took it easy on him, and fought using only range vs range, sword vs sword, equal grounds, and heero lost both drastically. With a rapid firing gatling gun that jsut mows down enemies, he couldn't even aim qucikly or accurately to hit an enemy who stayed in a very comfortable range for that type of gun once, wasting all of his ammo. In melee, het got sliced up, even when Zechs went easy all he did was scratch Talgeese lightly, cause Zechs let him. Sure he dodged some, during a single attack, but then he just got hit almost immediately afterwards. So unless he is fighting in turn-based Combat, i'd say he is out of luck since any semi intelligent opponent would follow up an attack.

That entire battle shows just how poorly Heero pilots.

edit: sorry, meant to add this but had to leave early.

there is one more important detail that actually proves me right. The context of the battle. look at HA vs T1. What was the context of this fight? what were the stakes? what did it mean?

Was it a battle for important territory that effects the plot? No, that location never really used again afterwards, at least not notably, was never at the risk of changing hands. Was it to protect some important character? No, it was kind of jsut a thing between heero and Zechs. was it a big battle to the death beween sworn enemy rivals? Again, apparently not since they both lived afterwards, and Zechs demolished Heero, and could of killed him but didnt. So in other words, who ever won, whoever lost, it really didn't matter to the plot. it was just two characters crossing paths, saying lets have a fair duel to see who is better.

now, Zechs won this fight, by a loooong ways. But, 30 something episodes later, in another duel between heero and zechs, when the fate of the world, and the entire war was on the line, Heero some how won. I mean, compared to their last duel heero really only had Shield this time as a difference. but Zechs had a better sword, and a whip now, and yet, heero won this fight.

So.... In a battle where nothing was on the line, and the outcome didnt matter, Zechs completely destroyed heero... but in a fight that decided the ending of the show, to conclude the story, Heero miraculously pulled out a victory.

meaning, Heero won because he needed to win, in order to save earth, stop the villain, and have the hero win, Heero wins cause the plot demanded it. But in a battle that the plot didnt really matter in, he lost. Heero is skilled when he needs to be to win, heero wins as the plot demands it. heero's greatest skill is his writers. Deus Ex Machina, at the definition's core and worst..
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Oct 27, 2013 5:46 pm.
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Atoric
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I've always been curious as to how Heero won. Yes the arm was gone, but Heero had literally no weapons left. If Zechs had continued to fight Heero had nothing to defend himself with, an arm for all of your opponent's offensive and defensive options in that situation says to me Zechs won.
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tyrox9
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I also wonder how zechs survived self destructing his gundam to blow up the genertor. cause, that's like two giant explosions. know what, that entire ending didn't make sense.
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Ma Su
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Seeker of knowledge and understanding.
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Atoric
Sun Oct 27, 2013 1:05 pm
Salt-Upon-Wounds
Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:44 am
Kuroda
Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:58 pm
Salt-Upon-Wounds
Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:45 am
And yet we are talking about moves from the game, so no the animation isn't canon, if it were the Gouf Flight Type would have a Gatling Gun, not a bazooka.
I don't think you understand what Canon means. Canon refers to the original body of work that something came from.
I was pointing out that the games are not canon, so an argument about staying true to the anime isn't applicable. Furthering my argument, since this game isn't true to the animation it has its own canon. Within this new canon, a Zaku Tank can defeat the Dark Gundam, Ball can wipe its ass with the Alpha Azieru, and the Z'gok/Acguy SUCK! (I like both of them, as well as the Gogg and Zock)
So by that logic M'quve is a useless fop, the Gyan is barely more than a mass produced piece of junk. And Rezin is a self important twit who falls over to the first skilled pilot she encounters in her must be special because being purple makes it better machine, if we're talking about the game.
Yeah, pretty much. The canon is in need of serious fixing, because as you just pointed out for me, this is still not the anime canon or even a well written one. Also, it's blue, not purple. I wasn't saying that the anime shouldn't be followed, just that he was getting off topic. This is about the game, not the anime. You guys need to remember that. Now, your point about Rezin is incorrect, I always have to rescue my stupid allies from her. Also, I think they should follow the anime more closely, M'Quve was competent, cunning, and cruel. They have failed to portray any of these, and the Gyan was a high performance ace custom, it needs the class 1 treatment.
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Atoric
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tyrox9
Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:43 pm
I also wonder how zechs survived self destructing his gundam to blow up the genertor. cause, that's like two giant explosions. know what, that entire ending didn't make sense.
He stabbed it, he didn't self destruct
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