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Shin Gundam Musou [Dynasty Warriors: Gundam Reborn]
Topic Started: Tue Sep 3, 2013 5:00 pm (22,262 Views)
Ma Su
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BlackKite
Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:23 am
Stargazer Gundam - Selene
I think you meant to say Sol Ryuune L'ange
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Piano94
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Sun Dec 1, 2013 6:14 pm
BlackKite
Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:23 am
Stargazer Gundam - Selene
I think you meant to say Sol Ryuune L'ange
no, if stargazer is in selene should be the Pilot. she is a much more important character and she was the Stargazer's Pilot in seed battle destiny for the vita, so it's definitely her gundam
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tyrox9
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I think its the other way around. Seed/Destiny is perfect for Official mode because it has so many things to be added. it's the second biggest timeline, and the only AU timeline that's been truly expanded like the UC. When you have more to work with, you can do better.

It's set up is just better to use; like look at Strike Gundam compared to Freedom Gundam. the two units are entirely different, can be played with completely differently. then look at units like Wing to Wing Zero, Shining to God, where the upgrade is literally just giving it more of the same. don't want to do that, wanna make different things.

And it's a little annoying how a lot of people just assume that the CE is only extremely loved in japan, and completely shunned everywhere else. Newsflash, Yes CE is super popular in a specific area. but it has a large fan base elsewhere too. hell, even the US, where CE takes the most of the heat, still has like a lot of fans.

edit: And im pretty sure Selene is more or less considered the main pilot for Stargazer. but sometimes it's liek shared with Sol. i remember in SRW, Stargazer had both characters' spirits.
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:29 pm.
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Master Omega
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tyrox9
Sun Dec 1, 2013 7:53 pm
I think its the other way around. Seed/Destiny is perfect for Official mode because it has so many things to be added. it's the second biggest timeline, and the only AU timeline that's been truly expanded like the UC. When you have more to work with, you can do better.

It's set up is just better to use; like look at Strike Gundam compared to Freedom Gundam. the two units are entirely different, can be played with completely differently. then look at units like Wing to Wing Zero, Shining to God, where the upgrade is literally just giving it more of the same. don't want to do that, wanna make different things.

And it's a little annoying how a lot of people just assume that the CE is only extremely loved in japan, and completely shunned everywhere else. Newsflash, Yes CE is super popular in a specific area. but it has a large fan base elsewhere too. hell, even the US, where CE takes the most of the heat, still has like a lot of fans.
Again, more to work with, but too much to add. It would have been better to add a CE official mode at a later date when more of the show's units have been added to the game, so that there isn't this concentration we're seeing now. It's not that CE shouldn't get one, or that it is a bad choice always, just at this time due to the needed additions.

That really doesn't mean much. How an MS plays is quite a leap in justifying why one series is better to use.

Well, that is the case, to be fair. Japan and other adjacent Asian countries are the center of the CE's popularity, whereas the West, primarily the Americas (North, South, and Central) love Wing and G. SEED has a fandom in the states, but it's negligible by comparison, more like a vocal minority. It's the same with G and Wing in Asian countries.

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Why is it a poor choice? Seed is popular. You not liking Seed leaves you in the small minority compared to most fans, and since this is aimed at the Japanese first, who love Seed more than any othe UC, what Koei is doing is the best course of action for a company that's not actually making very much money right now. You won't always get the suits and characters that you want, you might just have to deal with it. Seed at least gives us tons of suits with unique gameplay potential.


As I've been saying this whole time, SEED and Destiny are poor choices because of how many additions are needed. As we've seen, units that have nothing to do with Official Mode haven't been revealed primarily because of the number of slots the two shows have taken up in the roster. As stated in the same post you seem to be responding to, I noted that Stardust Memory, 08th MS Team and War in the Pocket could be finished well under the number of CE adds currently. Had this been any other series, I'd still be here arguing against it.

I'd rather have seen Destiny's roster finished off, as it would have a solid number when it finally got an official mode, while also allowing other shows to either debut, finish or add to their rosters.
Edited by Master Omega, Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:42 pm.
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SazukeEX
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Well giving SEED/Destiny an official mode means they can justify many additions for them. Not to mention that SEED/Destiny is popular and the HD Remaster is still ongoing. Koei wants to capitalize on that as if they wait til after that's over it means potiential sales will be lower as Gundam fans are no longer watching SEED/Destiny HD Remaster.

It was a fine financial decision and adding a bunch of mecha from 2 popular series, SEED/Destiny, is far cheaper than adding in mecha from a ton of different Gundam series at the same time. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if Koei got a really good deal on the SEED/Destiny stuff as it benefits the HD Remaster and merchandise sales if SEED/Destiny gets as much coverage as possible during the HD Remaster.

Not to mention SEED/Destiny gives the game far broader appeal than more UC stuff would have.
Edited by SazukeEX, Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:48 pm.
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Zeik Liberated
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Seed/Destiny were defiantly the best fit for first AU Official mode, it has a colorful cast that appeals to a large number of the fan base, even the people who hate Seed tend to like some of the characters and mecha and some of the less important characters such as the druggies and Extended not only have good sized fan bases but also unique MS that don't feel like just another custom grunt (nothing against custom grunts). This plus how it's story and fights can mirror UC leads to an easier conversion than say Turn A, G or 00.

Since they were dead set on revamping Official mode and wanted something big to head line it, There's little bigger and more suited than Seed they could have used.

Sure they might have been able to spread out the additions more evenly if they had instead choose to do 08th or 0083 or another UC side story that appeals to the same fans that the Official mode of MSG, Zeta, CCA will already do but that wouldn't have been impressive or as big a selling point as the first AU Official mode.
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tyrox9
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There are a lot more western seed fans than most people think. look at an english subbed Gundam Seed/Destiny remastered episode on youtube, in the majority of Likes/Dislikes, the Likes percentage is waaaay higher. look at the Gundam SEED poll on Gundam Wiki. over 76% of voters gave it a 7-10. almost half of all votes were a 10. Does that sound like a minor fanbase to you?
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Dec 1, 2013 8:51 pm.
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Master Omega
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@Sazuke and Zeik (since both of you are arguing the same thing)

I never at any point that the CE timeline wouldn't make a great Official Mode, nor did I say it wasn't a smart financial decision. I have outright stated that doing this during the release of the HD Remasters is very profitable.

My argument is solely on the fairness and distribution angle, trying to find the best outcome with how many slots we have. In that case, ANY AU would do poorly. Why do you think I didn't state that G, Wing or 00 should have an Official Mode instead? It'd be trading one poor choice for another. As I stated in my previous post, I think completing Destiny's roster would have been a good idea, allowing all the characters to be playable, and being a profitable marketing angle, while also allowing some flexibility in terms of additions.

Edit: @tyrox

1576 people voted in that range, hardly a number that is indicative of the larger fanbase. Plus, when I referred to the "Western fanbase" I specifically referenced the Americas by comparison. I cannot speak for Europe as I don't live there, nor have I studied Gundam releases and reactions as thoroughly there as with the US and Japan. Though it might be interesting to look into.
Edited by Master Omega, Sun Dec 1, 2013 9:06 pm.
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tyrox9
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the vote is around 2k voters. and no thats not the entier gundam fanbase. but look at it percentage wise. on an average voter bases bases.
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Master Omega
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tyrox9
Sun Dec 1, 2013 9:09 pm
the vote is around 2k voters. and no thats not the entier gundam fanbase. but look at it percentage wise. on an average voter bases bases.
It's a good number for a small scale poll, but the problem is where the votes come from. The Gundam wiki is an open website that isn't limited to just English speakers. It's the issue that comes with any anonymous poll on the internet. We know not where these voters are from, nor whether they enjoy multiple Gundam series or only like SEED, or maybe have only watched SEED and nothing else.

So yeah, it might give you a great average of how SEED and/or Destiny fared, but the numbers aren't very accurate as to who and why.
Edited by Master Omega, Sun Dec 1, 2013 9:20 pm.
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Zeik Liberated
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I don't think been fair with show distributions is really a good idea, I think they tried to be fair the last two times and it just spreads things to thinly that we end up with 3/5 Wing pilots, Characters with no MS, Final Boss units been Class 2 ( :sick: ) or just a single add for a show. I think doing this really doesn't satisfy anyone, at least this way has a much better chance of slamming a door on a show and satisfying it's fans.

I'm sure they will miss some little gems out like they have with Zeta (still hoping for those holes to be filled), but like how we rarely hear people wanting the Djieh or Messala, I'm sure very few people will be asking for none Astray Seed adds next time.
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Yunchan
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I don't really understand why Seed/Destiny would be a bad addition for official mode: the only other real option was 00 and that too would not have pleased everyone while being even more difficult to pull off.

Does this lead to an overexposure of Seed adds vs UC adds? Yes, but there was a ton of UC stuff already in from the first three games, you can't really add them a second time if they're already in.

If anything I'd question the removal of ZZ and putting in an incomplete Unicorn official mode. I'm fine with getting Banshee and hopefully Loni, but it's still going to be a story with no ending.
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Master Omega
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Zeik Liberated
Sun Dec 1, 2013 9:35 pm
I don't think been fair with show distributions is really a good idea, I think they tried to be fair the last two times and it just spreads things to thinly that we end up with 3/5 Wing pilots, Characters with no MS, Final Boss units been Class 2 ( :sick: ) or just a single add for a show. I think doing this really doesn't satisfy anyone, at least this way has a much better chance of slamming a door on a show and satisfying it's fans.

I'm sure they will miss some little gems out like they have with Zeta (still hoping for those holes to be filled), but like how we rarely hear people wanting the Djieh or Messala, I'm sure very few people will be asking for none Astray Seed adds next time.
You are correct, everything you've cited is Koei not being fair, and sometimes being downright stupid. Turn X being a class 2 was dumb, only having the DX and not Virsago Chest Break is dumb. There's a lot of unfairness in the DWG games.

But what I'm calling for isn't distributing out evenly or spreading out thinly, it's filling out where it needs to be. It'd be nice to have X get Shagia, or Harry Ord to complete Turn A's main adds. It'd be great to finish the Wing cast and give F91 and G another mobile suit outside of what they started with. Give ZZ some more villains like Chara Soon, Mashymere Cello, and more.

After all, this game was supposed to be the culmination of three DWG games, so I figured that finishing some rosters would be nice. Maybe it's my focus on great crossover experiences, over playing through the shows again.

@Yunchan

Again, I've said to everyone that ANY show that needs a ton of adds to have a viable Official Mode is not good due to the focus placed on it.

And yeah, I pointed out a while ago how poor Unicorn is being shafted due to the focus being placed on SEED and Destiny's Official Mode, on top of being incomplete due to the lack of episode 7.
Edited by Master Omega, Sun Dec 1, 2013 9:52 pm.
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Abyss4
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I dunno if I'd want Loni in, personally. She is kind of a shoe-in since MAs are one of the major features of this game, but she was really only in one episode. Then again, there really aren't many other major pilots from Unicorn, so I don't know. I'd love the Byalant Custom to be in, but who would be the pilot: a disembodied shadow? Maybe they can just make the current Byalant better. Ditto for Katejina's mobile suit.
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tyrox9
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Im still saying that OYW Side stories; 0083, 08th MS team would of been all the wiser. cause then we could add;
*Neul Ziel
*GP-03/Dendro
*Val-Walo
* various variants/customs of EF/Zeon units
*Gundam Groundtype
* EZ-8
* the Aps'
* Gouf Custom
* etc.

and you could still add the bigs from unciron likes of banshee and stuff, as just additional units
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SazukeEX
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Unicorn was included, even though it isn't finished, because it's very popular and stuff. Having SEED/Destiny and it getting an Official Mode is like the game is selling itself without even trying.
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tyrox9
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SazukeEX
Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:09 pm
Unicorn was included, even though it isn't finished, because it's very popular and stuff. Having SEED/Destiny and it getting an Official Mode is like the game is selling itself without even trying.
part of the reason why DWG2 was so great, and basically consensus best DWG game. the Destiny entries were huge.
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Cydge
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I don't know for other european countries, be here in France, I'm pretty sure that Seed/Destiny was well received considering it is the only dubbed gundam series with Wing. Plus, even subbed version of the likes of Zeta, G and Turn A was never officially released here.
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tyrox9
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Cydge
Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:33 pm
I don't know for other european countries, be here in France, I'm pretty sure that Seed/Destiny was well received considering it is the only dubbed gundam series with Wing. Plus, even subbed version of the likes of Zeta, G and Turn A was never officially released here.
dont feel bad. the entire world was neglected the glory of Turn A. Though t least we have english subs.
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:44 pm.
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Zeik Liberated
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Quote:
 
But what I'm calling for isn't distributing out evenly or spreading out thinly, it's filling out where it needs to be. It'd be nice to have X get Shagia, or Harry Ord to complete Turn A's main adds. It'd be great to finish the Wing cast and give F91 and G another mobile suit outside of what they started with. Give ZZ some more villains like Chara Soon, Mashymere Cello, and more.


Considering they felt they should add Sochie over Harry I'm not so sure Koei even knows what "the mains adds" for each show should be. Even so I think doing this just add the main characters route doesn't have a good end, if you add Shagia why not his brother or Jamil, if Harry why not Corrin, if G gets its extra MS why no Allanby or SA.

Shows just have so many main characters you either add them all at once or you end up going only half way (or worse as Koei has proved a few times) and end up with how Wing is currently. At least thats Koei's track record.

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After all, this game was supposed to be the culmination of three DWG games, so I figured that finishing some rosters would be nice. Maybe it's my focus on great crossover experiences, over playing through the shows again.

I don't think great crossover experiences demand more characters and DWG1 proved that, they do however need to figure out how to do a good crossover with a large cast (hint SRW does it every freaking game).
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Cydge
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@tyrox: hopefully, there is unnofficial subs.
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Master Omega
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Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:49 pm
Considering they felt they should add Sochie over Harry I'm not so sure Koei even knows what "the mains adds" for each show should be. Even so I think doing this just add the main characters route doesn't have a good end, if you add Shagia why not his brother or Jamil, if Harry why not Corrin, if G gets its extra MS why no Allanby or SA.

Shows just have so many main characters you either add them all at once or you end up going only half way (or worse as Koei has proved a few times) and end up with how Wing is currently. At least thats Koei's track record.


I don't think great crossover experiences demand more characters and DWG1 proved that, they do however need to figure out how to do a good crossover with a large cast (hint SRW does it every freaking game).
That's the thing, focusing on main characters would work out regardless of who is added. We might groan at someone being added over another (Trowa over Wufei or Quatre, The Frosts or Jamil, Harry without Corrin, Schwarz or Allenby, etc.) but it ultimately ends up with happiness via exposure.

In short, I'd rather appease as many as possible across a spectrum than appease a single group, antagonizing the rest.

It's true that you don't need a lot of characters for great crossovers. I love DWG as much as the next guy. The challenge is, as you say, to figure out how to make a cast that large work in a crossover setting. While SRW does indeed work well, I think it works because of it being a RPG, it's allowed, even expected to have tons of dialogue and interactions. Koei needs to find a way to grant attention to those who need it, while not overexposing any particular individual. I'd say small team stories would fix that, just like DWG1. . .come to think of it, that would be a wonderful discussion point.

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dont feel bad. the entire world was neglected the glory of Turn A. Though t least we have english subs.


There was supposed to be a dub. . .until Bandai said "Screw it!" and got rid of their American branch.
Edited by Master Omega, Sun Dec 1, 2013 11:17 pm.
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tyrox9
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Master Omega
Sun Dec 1, 2013 11:15 pm
Zeik Liberated
Sun Dec 1, 2013 10:49 pm
Considering they felt they should add Sochie over Harry I'm not so sure Koei even knows what "the mains adds" for each show should be. Even so I think doing this just add the main characters route doesn't have a good end, if you add Shagia why not his brother or Jamil, if Harry why not Corrin, if G gets its extra MS why no Allanby or SA.

Shows just have so many main characters you either add them all at once or you end up going only half way (or worse as Koei has proved a few times) and end up with how Wing is currently. At least thats Koei's track record.


I don't think great crossover experiences demand more characters and DWG1 proved that, they do however need to figure out how to do a good crossover with a large cast (hint SRW does it every freaking game).
That's the thing, focusing on main characters would work out regardless of who is added. We might groan at someone being added over another (Trowa over Wufei or Quatre, The Frosts or Jamil, Harry without Corrin, Schwarz or Allenby, etc.) but it ultimately ends up with happiness via exposure.

In short, I'd rather appease as many as possible across a spectrum than appease a single group, antagonizing the rest.

It's true that you don't need a lot of characters for great crossovers. I love DWG as much as the next guy. The challenge is, as you say, to figure out how to make a cast that large work in a crossover setting. While SRW does indeed work well, I think it works because of it being a RPG, it's allowed, even expected to have tons of dialogue and interactions. Koei needs to find a way to grant attention to those who need it, while not overexposing any particular individual. I'd say small team stories would fix that, just like DWG1. . .come to think of it, that would be a wonderful discussion point.

Quote:
 
dont feel bad. the entire world was neglected the glory of Turn A. Though t least we have english subs.


There was supposed to be a dub. . .until Bandai said "Screw it!" and got rid of their American branch.
you have no idea how i hyped I got for that. just to have it torn away..... gad dangit America, why couldnt you have been a better Gundam Fan?
Edited by tyrox9, Sun Dec 1, 2013 11:22 pm.
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SazukeEX
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Hey now, I like Sochie! Even if she was really screwed over in that Turn A ending.
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Zeik Liberated
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Stuff...

In short, I'd rather appease as many as possible across a spectrum than appease a single group, antagonizing the rest.


That sounds nice but considering I think this is what lead to situations like F91, Wing, Victory and G. It just doesn't seem to work for Koei, inevitably a show gets more adds than another because it has a wider/more popular cast or whatever and it just doesn't quite work. At least thats what history tells me with these games, while there history with focusing on a few shows is actually pretty good, see DWG2's adds to MSG, Zeta, CCA.

And like Ive said before I'm sure 90% of Gundam fans can find atleast 1-2 Units/Characters from a full show that they are happy to see added and if I'm right there then I don't see the difference between equal adds and this except one gets a show ticked off the list and has more effort seemingly put into it.

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While SRW does indeed work well, I think it works because of it being a RPG, it's allowed, even expected to have tons of dialogue and interactions.


DWG3's (and 1's tbh)story was presented in much the same way SRW does things only SRW writes more(and has more effort put into it). A bit of talking before a mission - battle - Bit more talking about stuff. And they have more than a large enough cast at this point to do a fine story, they have two timelines (now) done which could focus events around and as SRW has done in the past use the other universes characters as extra parts of the universe.

As for having a lot of dialogue, it's not voiced and they already write quite a bit for official and Original mode if DWG2 memory's serve.
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