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Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada; New Characters: Sanada Masayuki, Chacha, Sasuke, Lady Muramatsu, Takeda Katsuyori, Tokugawa Hidetada
Topic Started: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:15 pm (168,781 Views)
LordTerrantos
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Sat Nov 4, 2017 2:05 pm

Sorry, I do not want to be rude, but the other name of the game is "Spirit of Gracia" and "Gracia maru"?


I mean, she gets a forced friendship with Chacha, survives her death and is still in Osaka at the end even though she should be dead a decade earlier.


And all I wanted for Hayakawa is that she gets better dialogues in Odawaras and is present with everyone else in Osaka, like the ten other characters who fought in Osaka. Is it really asking too much?


And also, it would be good if they did not make Nobuyuki have the same outfit since adolęscencia since he is one of the Sanada. But apparently Omega need to take time by forcing interaction between Chacha and Grace even if it is not Spirit of Chacha and Gracia.



its really nothing we can do with the thing about Gracia. as if they truly wanted to go by history. Hayakawa wouldn't even be present at Osaka and Gracia would of been dead by the time Osaka took place instead of been in hiding. even Hanzo Hattori would of been dead by the time Osaka happens.
Not being rude or mean or hostile here at all.

Honestly given this is not called "Spirit of Hayakawa" of course she would not be a huge focus, the only reason Kai gets alot more focus is because she is more of a Toyotomi character then a Hojo character. like if Omega really wanted to since Kai is a folktale character they could just make Kai start out with the Toyotomi. but of course they won't.


and i don't think the other name would be "Spirit of Gracia" if only because she really doesnt have much appearances and usually only is focused in scenes that aren't in the main events. and is usually only seen in "secondary battles" of the game. and focused during Osaka after she has no choice but to be in Osaka. huge role debatable. but definitely not as focused upon as Yukimura, Sasuke, Masayuki, or Chacha.



the fact is Hayakawa still has plenty of role in the game even if as a enemy, and honestly Hayakawa really wouldn't have a reason to appear much after Odawara or be able to be shown talking to Kai. Like there isn't much cutscenes with the tokugawa in the game other then in the beginning, sometimes around the odawara siege, and then a few after and during the 2nd battle of Ueda.


and of course Hayakawa and Kai are omitted from the 2nd battle of Ueda.



and honestly Hayakawa is not missing much from not being present in the epilogue. Not only because she is technically dead by the time the epilogue occurs (based on what i noticed). but the dialogue in the epilogue is not that complexed or anything. there's just a couple of sentences for the characters or at least some of them.


even Muneshige who should be alive during this time did not show up. and Kai can show up during the epilogue because well she is fictional and has no known death date in her folktale. so there is no real problem for her.



at the end of the day i think Hayakawa is only included in Osaka to give her more screentime, but would be dead by the time the epilogue takes place. if only because Ieyasu is also dead by this time. she is lucky she doesn't die before Osaka like history says she does.



and honestly the only reason Chacha is focused upon, is she is a Toyotomi and thier the clan Yukimura ended up serving in the end. and i do remember reading somewhere Chacha offered Yukimura a large amount of Koku if they somehow won the battle of Osaka. tho can't say if they knew each other much before Osaka.



while i agree Gracia has no reason to be such a large focus in the game and should be dead by the time the epilogue happens. Chacha has plenty of reason to be focused especially since she is a new character. and we already seen Hayakawa as a large focus in SW4-2 and SW4. (and maybe SW Chronicles 3 but i havent played that one).



at the end of the day it comes down to the game being focused more on the Toyotomi and Sanada, and not so much the Hojo and Tokugawa.



the only real issue i have is the fact Nobuyuki pretty much has the same outfit as his teen model, hell unlike Yukimura. his teen model is the same one he uses in vanilla SW4 and 4-2.
Edited by LordTerrantos, Sat Nov 4, 2017 4:34 pm.
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Lion of Sagami
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LordTerrantos
Sat Nov 4, 2017 4:31 pm
Not being rude or mean or hostile here at all.

Honestly given this is not called "Spirit of Hayakawa" of course she would not be a huge focus, the only reason Kai gets alot more focus is because she is more of a Toyotomi character then a Hojo character. like if Omega really wanted to since Kai is a folktale character they could just make Kai start out with the Toyotomi. but of course they won't.


and i don't think the other name would be "Spirit of Gracia" if only because she really doesnt have much appearances and usually only is focused in scenes that aren't in the main events. and is usually only seen in "secondary battles" of the game. and focused during Osaka after she has no choice but to be in Osaka. huge role debatable. but definitely not as focused upon as Yukimura, Sasuke, Masayuki, or Chacha.





Well, maybe I'm being bias and maybe I'm overestimating appearances of Gracia, because her friendship with Chacha and her survival is fictional.




Quote:
 
the fact is Hayakawa still has plenty of role in the game even if as a enemy, and honestly Hayakawa really wouldn't have a reason to appear much after Odawara or be able to be shown talking to Kai. Like there isn't much cutscenes with the tokugawa in the game other then in the beginning, sometimes around the odawara siege, and then a few after and during the 2nd battle of Ueda.


and of course Hayakawa and Kai are omitted from the 2nd battle of Ueda.




You're right, maybe I'm underestimating her scenes and looking very picky when I would really be pleased with some minor changes.



Quote:
 
and honestly Hayakawa is not missing much from not being present in the epilogue. Not only because she is technically dead by the time the epilogue occurs (based on what i noticed). but the dialogue in the epilogue is not that complexed or anything. there's just a couple of sentences for the characters or at least some of them.


even Muneshige who should be alive during this time did not show up. and Kai can show up during the epilogue because well she is fictional and has no known death date in her folktale. so there is no real problem for her.



Well, sorry maybe I was really thinking too much about it and exaggerating a few things.


I had thought that Muneshige was there, for some reason.


Actually I'm watching most of the cutscenes on youtube because I'm scared if I'm not going to like it, but it would be better if I really played the game open-minded.



Quote:
 
at the end of the day i think Hayakawa is only included in Osaka to give her more screentime, but would be dead by the time the epilogue takes place. if only because Ieyasu is also dead by this time. she is lucky she doesn't die before Osaka like history says she does.



and honestly the only reason Chacha is focused upon, is she is a Toyotomi and thier the clan Yukimura ended up serving in the end. and i do remember reading somewhere Chacha offered Yukimura a large amount of Koku if they somehow won the battle of Osaka. tho can't say if they knew each other much before Osaka.




Yeah, I should at least be happy to at least try something for her. Since they care more about gameplay than history, it makes sense that she is in the battle, but not in the epilogue.



I wonder if Omega wanted try do with Hayakawa and Kai the same thing happened to Hanzo who was spared for two decades just to kill Sasuke.


But on the other hand you said that they tend to be protectors with female characters and maybe they decided to leave everything as vague as possible.




Quote:
 
while i agree Gracia has no reason to be such a large focus in the game and should be dead by the time the epilogue happens. Chacha has plenty of reason to be focused especially since she is a new character. and we already seen Hayakawa as a large focus in SW4-2 and SW4. (and maybe SW Chronicles 3 but i havent played that one).



at the end of the day it comes down to the game being focused more on the Toyotomi and Sanada, and not so much the Hojo and Tokugawa



It need not necessarily be more focus on the Hojo clan, but they have stronger historical relations with the Tokugawa, Takeda and by extension, the Sanada.


While the Akechi has more connection with the Oda and a small relationship with Toyotomi, which is more the reason for their death than anything else.



I'm not complaining about Chacha, but maybe she could have more involvement with people she historically interacted with as Nene rather than having forced friendship with Gracia.




With Yukimura it's not too bad because they had a good pretext for getting to know each other.



Quote:
 
the only real issue i have is the fact Nobuyuki pretty much has the same outfit as his teen model, hell unlike Yukimura. his teen model is the same one he uses in vanilla SW4 and 4-2.



I like Nobuyuki and I hope it does not look like bias, but can you confirm that it is not possible to fight in the Osaka Campaign from his point of view? I think not because you said there are few focus on the Tokugawa clan, but it is not possible even in "free mode"?

Since it is "Spirit of Sanada", then Nobuyuki could we give the other side of what was happening even though Nobuyuki is not as famous or glorified as Yukimura.


And I can be bias, but more attention to Nobuyuki would give more scene to Hayakawa, Ina and Muneshige.





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Maya
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Yukimura and Chacha historically did not know each other at all since both him and Daisuke served Hideyori not Chacha.
Yukimura was tied to the Toyotomi via marriage by default.
Chacha had nothing to do with the Sanada especially since Yukimura, Masayuki and Akihime were locked away for years after Sekigahara. Masayuki was dead by 1611.
Chacha also didn't promise Yukimura anything since he didn't serve her. He unlike other retainers also didn't die in Chacha's vincinity (his son who died with Chacha and Hideyori saw more of Chacha's personality than he probably ever did) thus fabricating a friendship was just meh. Chacha should have just been a NPC and playable in SW5 with actual ties to Hideyoshi.

Hayakawa got enough screentime for a game that has nothing to do with her.
Spirits definitely had other weaknesses in my opinion (no defenders, a second hand embarassing Chacha, no Akihime).
Edited by Maya, Sat Nov 4, 2017 5:18 pm.
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LordTerrantos
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@Maya: while i agree that they should of added a defender of Osaka like Matabei or even Morichika (who at the end of the day could be used to help focus on the chosokabe).


You also got to remember Maya, Samurai Warriors is a fictional game based on history. and is not always going to follow history exactly how we know it as. so there will be changes. such as Chacha and Yukimura's friendship.


I understand why you want Akihime i do, as i also would like her to appear in the game at some point. but i sure we will get her eventually. this game felt more like it was the Spirit of Sanada/Toyotomi then anything anyway. and at the end of the day, i don't think Daisuke will even have anything to do with the game anyway. as he would serve no purpose. as he only has one battle.



@Lion of Sagami: I would suggest not watching cutscenes on youtube of the game, it be better just to get the game yourself with a more open mind. as its one of the best games of SW in my opinion even with some of its problems.



SoS. doesn't even have Nobuyuki at Osaka so yeah you can't fight from his point of view. and the toyotomi is the side u basically fight as in Osaka. usually as Yukimura, Kai, Chacha, Sasuke, Kunoichi, or Kotaro (who is only useable once). no Koshosho tho.
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AntonKutovoi
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While I wouldn't mind Akihime's appearance in this game, I most certainly don't see her absence as a weakness. She is just a nice bonus, who, in my opinion, doesn't provide much to the story. Yukimura still would join West because of his friendship, not because of his family ties to Yoshitsugu, just like Nobuyuki joined East not because of Ina, but because of his convictions. And the ones, who call friendship a weak reason to join a certain side - let me ask you this: do you really think marriage is a better reason? There's really a lot of characters, who would prove your point false. Some, like Nagamasa, Shingen or Ieasu broke marriage alliances more than once. Nagao Masakage was Kenshin's brother-in-law, but he most likely was killed by Kenshin's order.
As for Osaka - if he would go there in the name of dead, rather than in the name of the living, it would turn him into a fanatic, not a hero, IMO.
Edited by AntonKutovoi, Sat Nov 4, 2017 5:54 pm.
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Lion of Sagami
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Sat Nov 4, 2017 5:24 pm
@Maya: while i agree that they should of added a defender of Osaka like Matabei or even Morichika (who at the end of the day could be used to help focus on the chosokabe).


You also got to remember Maya, Samurai Warriors is a fictional game based on history. and is not always going to follow history exactly how we know it as. so there will be changes. such as Chacha and Yukimura's friendship.


I understand why you want Akihime i do, as i also would like her to appear in the game at some point. but i sure we will get her eventually. this game felt more like it was the Spirit of Sanada/Toyotomi then anything anyway. and at the end of the day, i don't think Daisuke will even have anything to do with the game anyway. as he would serve no purpose. as he only has one battle.



I also wanted to add that technically Hayakawa has some relations with Takeda and therefore with the Sanada. Her sister was married to Katsuyori and she was almost sent to an arranged marriage with someone from the Takeda clan, but she chose to stay with Ujizane.


In addition, since the game even included playable women, then she can gives a face to the Hojo in the Siege of Odawara, since Kai and Kotaro are not related by blood with the Hojo family. And Ujimasa is an NPC.


So she having some interaction with someone from the Takeda or Sanada clan is not much different from Yukimura and Chacha (though that is a bit more likely).



As for Akihime, they could simply make Muramatsu playable first.




Quote:
 
@Lion of Sagami: I would suggest not watching cutscenes on youtube of the game, it be better just to get the game yourself with a more open mind. as its one of the best games of SW in my opinion even with some of its problems.



SoS. doesn't even have Nobuyuki at Osaka so yeah you can't fight from his point of view. and the toyotomi is the side u basically fight as in Osaka. usually as Yukimura, Kai, Chacha, Sasuke, Kunoichi, or Kotaro (who is only useable once). no Koshosho tho.



All right, thanks for clarifying some things for me.


Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.


And by the way, I think you said that Hayakawa is only selectable once in the main game. I used to think it was as support for Nobuyuki as she was in SW4, but how can she be played in the main story if she and Yukimura are never on the same side?




Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:11 pm.
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LordTerrantos
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Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:10 pm
LordTerrantos
Sat Nov 4, 2017 5:24 pm
@Maya: while i agree that they should of added a defender of Osaka like Matabei or even Morichika (who at the end of the day could be used to help focus on the chosokabe).


You also got to remember Maya, Samurai Warriors is a fictional game based on history. and is not always going to follow history exactly how we know it as. so there will be changes. such as Chacha and Yukimura's friendship.


I understand why you want Akihime i do, as i also would like her to appear in the game at some point. but i sure we will get her eventually. this game felt more like it was the Spirit of Sanada/Toyotomi then anything anyway. and at the end of the day, i don't think Daisuke will even have anything to do with the game anyway. as he would serve no purpose. as he only has one battle.



I also wanted to add that technically Hayakawa has some relations with Takeda and therefore with the Sanada. Her sister was married to Katsuyori and she was almost sent to an arranged marriage with someone from the Takeda clan, but she chose to stay with Ujizane.


In addition, since the game even included playable women, then she can gives a face to the Hojo in the Siege of Odawara, since Kai and Kotaro are not related by blood with the Hojo family. And Ujimasa is an NPC.


So she having some interaction with someone from the Takeda or Sanada clan is not much different from Yukimura and Chacha (though that is a bit more likely).



As for Akihime, they could simply make Muramatsu playable first.




Quote:
 
@Lion of Sagami: I would suggest not watching cutscenes on youtube of the game, it be better just to get the game yourself with a more open mind. as its one of the best games of SW in my opinion even with some of its problems.



SoS. doesn't even have Nobuyuki at Osaka so yeah you can't fight from his point of view. and the toyotomi is the side u basically fight as in Osaka. usually as Yukimura, Kai, Chacha, Sasuke, Kunoichi, or Kotaro (who is only useable once). no Koshosho tho.



All right, thanks for clarifying some things for me.


Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.


And by the way, I think you said that Hayakawa is only selectable once in the main game. I used to think it was as support for Nobuyuki as she was in SW4, but how can she be played in the main story if she and Yukimura are never on the same side?




Well yes there is that, but they also never mentioned Hayakawa having a Sister in SoS, even more so since the only female NPCS are villagers, shopkeepers, and the unique NPC Muramatsu. and the only thing is mentioned is that Someone from Ieyasu's family married into the Hojo clan. but they didn't explain who.



so honestly this is the only real reason why they would not show much with Hayakawa. not to mention even if they did put this in. i doubt they would focus on it too much other then one scene.



Hayakawa is only usable in Free Mode & exploration mode unlike Kai. which as i said before u wont be able to use her until you beat the game, and after that you can summon almost any character at the tea house and maxed your bonds with the character by giving them gifts.


and can use that character exploration mode. where free mode you need to talk to the libary guard (where he is depends on the city/castle town ur in). and then you can pick which battle you want to play. and should be able to use Hayakawa in that.



but in the main story. she is not useable at all unlike Kai. who is only useable during the Osaka Battles.
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Lion of Sagami
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Well yes there is that, but they also never mentioned Hayakawa having a Sister in SoS, even more so since the only female NPCS are villagers, shopkeepers, and the unique NPC Muramatsu. and the only thing is mentioned is that Someone from Ieyasu's family married into the Hojo clan. but they didn't explain who.



so honestly this is the only real reason why they would not show much with Hayakawa. not to mention even if they did put this in. i doubt they would focus on it too much other then one scene.



Yes, I understand, but I just said there are some things that could legitimize her presence.


And the only way this was shown, was to be Shizuka made playable, but she would end up dying along with her husband and I'm not sure if that was too early in SoS.



In fact, I'm not sure if Katsuyori himself appears a lot and I think even his weapon is generic. Probably he's only there to develop Masayuki and he's not much better than Saburo except he's playable



Perhaps his relations with the Hojo are shown in SW5.



Quote:
 
Hayakawa is only usable in Free Mode & exploration mode unlike Kai. which as i said before u wont be able to use her until you beat the game, and after that you can summon almost any character at the tea house and maxed your bonds with the character by giving them gifts.


and can use that character exploration mode. where free mode you need to talk to the libary guard (where he is depends on the city/castle town ur in). and then you can pick which battle you want to play. and should be able to use Hayakawa in that.



but in the main story. she is not useable at all unlike Kai. who is only useable during the Osaka Battles.



Sorry, I may have misunderstood what you said earlier, but that's fine.


Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sat Nov 4, 2017 7:31 pm.
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Raiko Z
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I think Gracia is featured beyond her lifetime only by popular demand.

Which is bullcrap if they still keep up with that method sadly.
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LordTerrantos
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@Lion of Sagami: I think the game itself starts in the Years between 1558 - 1564. but i could be wrong.


Katsuyori is shown quite a bit. but honestly not enough to develop well anything for the Hojo and even if he was, they only have him there to develop Masayuki as a character and to show how the Takeda fall. Like i honestly wouldn't get your hopes up for him to help develop the Hojo in the future titles. as he is mostly famous for how he got defeated at Nagashino. and of course he enraged the Hojo when he sided with Kagekatsu during the whole Uesugi Heir debate.


tho in SoS he only sends Masayuki for it.



because frankly he has more connections with the Sanada then he does with the Hojo.



i think we would have better chances of them developing the Hojo with Hayakawa and Nobuyuki then with Katsuyori. as honestly once SW5 happens, and depending how its done. Katsuyori honestly wouldnt be in the game very long.
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Sat Nov 4, 2017 7:44 pm

i think we would have better chances of them developing the Hojo with Hayakawa and Nobuyuki then with Katsuyori. as honestly once SW5 happens, and depending how its done. Katsuyori honestly wouldnt be in the game very long.



Now that I'm thinking better, Shizuka would only fulfill a role that Katsuyori and Saburo already do respectively for Masayuki and Hayakawa. It would be redundant.


And if Omega wanted to do something with the Hojo have a greater relationship with the Sanada, they could take advantage of the existing battles involving Takeda and Hojo.




I mean, Gracia and Koshosho knew each other in the Conquest of Shikoku, which obviously did not happen. And I think even Magoichi was historically not there.

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Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:10 pm
Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.
Nobuyuki Sanada didn't take part in the Osaka Campaign; he sent his two sons in his stead.
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LordTerrantos
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Sun Nov 5, 2017 2:27 am
Lion of Sagami
Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:10 pm
Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.
Nobuyuki Sanada didn't take part in the Osaka Campaign; he sent his two sons in his stead.
So in actual History Nobuyuki never was at Osaka? weird i always assumed he was. then again i know very little on Nobuyuki other then what the games say
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Maya
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No he wasn't. His sons Nobumasa and Nobuyoshi went to Osaka though. They were adults by this point.
Both of them we're casted in Sanada Taiheiki and in the Sanadamaru Taiga and have portraits in Nobunaga's Ambition if I remember correctly.
Edited by Maya, Sun Nov 5, 2017 8:54 am.
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LordTerrantos
Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:21 am
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Sun Nov 5, 2017 2:27 am
Lion of Sagami
Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:10 pm
Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.
Nobuyuki Sanada didn't take part in the Osaka Campaign; he sent his two sons in his stead.
So in actual History Nobuyuki never was at Osaka? weird i always assumed he was. then again i know very little on Nobuyuki other then what the games say




I did not know that either. In fact, one of his sons also was in SW4.

I just think it's weird how he let the heirs of the Sanada clan risk their lives, rather than go it alone. Well, maybe he had other heirs who stayed safe.


But it's strange that they still included Hayakawa (died a few years earlier), Kotaro (died a decade ago), Kai (probably never existed), Kunoichi (never existed) and Hanzo (died two decades before) who is only there for Sasuke have a rival.


So even if he were to follow historical accuracy, Nobuyuki would still make more sense than these.




Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sun Nov 5, 2017 6:06 pm.
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LordTerrantos
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Sun Nov 5, 2017 6:06 pm
LordTerrantos
Sun Nov 5, 2017 4:21 am
Amakusa
Sun Nov 5, 2017 2:27 am
Lion of Sagami
Sat Nov 4, 2017 6:10 pm
Is there any explanation why Nobuyuki is not in the Osaka Campaign? I can understand Hayakawa, but I think it's strange the way they did with Nobuyuki. But okay, I'll play with open mind.
Nobuyuki Sanada didn't take part in the Osaka Campaign; he sent his two sons in his stead.
So in actual History Nobuyuki never was at Osaka? weird i always assumed he was. then again i know very little on Nobuyuki other then what the games say




I did not know that either. In fact, one of his sons also was in SW4.

I just think it's weird how he let the heirs of the Sanada clan risk their lives, rather than go it alone. Well, maybe he had other heirs who stayed safe.


But it's strange that they still included Hayakawa (died a few years earlier), Kotaro (died a decade ago), Kai (probably never existed), Kunoichi (never existed) and Hanzo (died two decades before) who is only there for Sasuke have a rival.


So even if he were to follow historical accuracy, Nobuyuki would still make more sense than these.




Well to be fair. Hanzo Hattori and Kotaro Fuma, the Leaders of thier clans are always named "Hanzo Hattori" and "Kotaro Fuma". i think in the samurai warriors universe. Hanzo is suposed to represent all the Hanzos just as Kotaro represents all the Kotaros. and Magoichi represents all the Magoichis.


thus why Magoichi lives for so long.




tho technically speaking. the Hanzo Hattori we see through most of the game was also a Samurai not a Ninja. it was Hanzo the First who was the Ninja.



tho i can't argue Kunoichi, Kai, and Sasuke don't make as much sense as Nobuyuki would
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Rance
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I would rather blood be confined to cutscenes and not slow the game down or clutter the screen while playing
I think blood can be useful in small amounts but too much is pointless or even detrimental.
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Raiko Z
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How come blood effect will slow down the game when you have all the crazy effects and particle already applied in the game for years?

This is like saying a flower motif on a cloth will make it easier to tear than when if it was with animal motif.
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Kiheiji
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Nobuyuki was said to be ill during Osaka.
Hattori Masanari was the most famous Hanzo and the one who served Ieyasu for most of the latter's career. Hanzo in this game is sort an amalgam of him and his son, but like in other games and movies it's MOSTLY Masanari. Let's not get into the "He wasn't a ninja" because we'd have to explain what a ninja really was.
Blood is overrated.
Edited by Kiheiji, Mon Nov 6, 2017 9:22 am.
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Amakusa
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Lion of Sagami
Sun Nov 5, 2017 6:06 pm
I did not know that either. In fact, one of his sons also was in SW4.

I just think it's weird how he let the heirs of the Sanada clan risk their lives, rather than go it alone. Well, maybe he had other heirs who stayed safe.
I know there's at least one anecdote where Nobushige (Yukimura) stood out on the Sanadamaru and pointed out his nephews to one of his subordinates and supposedly asked not to kill them or something.
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The Outsider
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Does anyone have a list of all the skills you can attach to your weapons in this game?
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Lion of Sagami
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How long did it take for most to finish the game?

I'm already in chapter seven after seven hours of playing, although I've read that it's a lot longer than SW4.


I am a bit disappointed that Naotora does not even have an event to introduce her. If Grace survived in the end because she was popular then why Naotora did not have screen time?


Thinking like that, Hayakawa was lucky because in SW3C, she simply came under the care of Tokugawa and could have stayed out of the Siege of Odawara (where she has an event where she is "introduced" though appeared earlier).



I am surprised that the Hojo and Uesugi are less criticized negatively than the Tokugawa. The first two were enemies of the Sanada for a long time, but Masayuki at best a little "snark" at them while he seems to really hate Ieyasu.


I just do not understand what he means that Ieyasu uses the dead to justify their actions ... Hideyoshi does not do that too? So what difference does it want to allude to the Toyotomi clan or Tokugawa clan? Or does he despise Hideyoshi as well, but is there more anger against Ieyasu as well?


If that's the case, I think it would be more interesting. I do not like the simplistic division "Here are the ones who love Ieyasu and those there are the ones who loved Hideyoshi and do not accept Ieyasu".



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Kuroda Kanbei
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I am surprised that the Hojo and Uesugi are less criticized negatively than the Tokugawa. The first two were enemies of the Sanada for a long time, but Masayuki at best a little "snark" at them while he seems to really hate Ieyasu.


I just do not understand what he means that Ieyasu uses the dead to justify their actions ... Hideyoshi does not do that too? So what difference does it want to allude to the Toyotomi clan or Tokugawa clan? Or does he despise Hideyoshi as well, but is there more anger against Ieyasu as well?


If that's the case, I think it would be more interesting. I do not like the simplistic division "Here are the ones who love Ieyasu and those there are the ones who loved Hideyoshi and do not accept Ieyasu".


Part of the reason is probably that there was never a lot of bad blood between the Uesugi and the Takeda/Sadada in the SW series. They kinda fight each other for fun rather than for dominance, silly as it is. Hojo points out the insanity of that and isn't involved as much in this mutual crush the other two Kanto lords have but the relations are at least cordial and he's both their drinking buddy in Chronicles. Another part is historical necessity. Popular culture ensures the Tokugawa are known as the chief enemy of the Sanada.

Ieyasu occasionally makes comments about how he's fighting for the sake of those that died so that's what Masayuki may be referring too.

As for the difference between Ieyasu and Hideyoshi....there isn't one, really which makes some characters make very contradicting actions when they deal with both of them. You mention Masayuki but Takatora has the opposite version of this. He's incredibly bitter about Hideyoshi's role in Nagamasa's defeat but he has no problem with Ieyasu's even bigger role in the downfall of the Asai. Its weird and kinda bad writing if you ask me.

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Lion of Sagami
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Kuroda Kanbei
Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:52 am

Part of the reason is probably that there was never a lot of bad blood between the Uesugi and the Takeda/Sadada in the SW series. They kinda fight each other for fun rather than for dominance, silly as it is. Hojo points out the insanity of that and isn't involved as much in this mutual crush the other two Kanto lords have but the relations are at least cordial and he's both their drinking buddy in Chronicles. Another part is historical necessity. Popular culture ensures the Tokugawa are known as the chief enemy of the Sanada.



I'm not sure what you mean the Hojo have pointed out how insane this is because in the "Siege of Otate", it seems the Takeda (or at least Masayuki) were the only ones who did not understand why Saburo and Kagekatsu were fighting. (Saburo and Aya literally tell Masauyuki to shut up because he did not understand the "Uesugi spirit")


In fact, because of "historical accuracy," people are "dumbfounded." Maybe Kenshin did not say anything because Saburo, ironically, was four years older than Kagekatsu and he simply did not specify an heir because they could follow the common tradition of the older brother inheriting the clan.


Perhaps another example is why Masauyuki is so obsessed with Castle Numata? In the beginning, it was to be a defense against Uesugi, but he admitted that the castle was weak ... It did not make sense anymore after Hideyoshi had them all submit to him and so the castles became useless.


Then Ujimasa says that he will not accept to submit to the force, but Hideyoshi only sent several requests before he decided to attack.


And then there was that enigmatic scene, where Yukimura supposed that his father manipulated an attack of the Hojo to Hideyoshi to have a pretext to attack of Hojo. It then appears that Ujimasa confirms that the attack was true, but it seems he was blaming someone I do not remember the name while Kai said the Sanada were manipulators.


But why would Masayuki want this? Just to get a castle that he did not need? Was he very afraid that the Hojo would counter attack only by resisting against Toyotomi? Or was he "innocent" and Ujimasa was only an idiot for not handing over the guilt (preferably up to Osaka) and resolving the situation?




Quote:
 
Ieyasu occasionally makes comments about how he's fighting for the sake of those that died so that's what Masayuki may be referring too.

As for the difference between Ieyasu and Hideyoshi....there isn't one, really which makes some characters make very contradicting actions when they deal with both of them. You mention Masayuki but Takatora has the opposite version of this. He's incredibly bitter about Hideyoshi's role in Nagamasa's defeat but he has no problem with Ieyasu's even bigger role in the downfall of the Asai. Its weird and kinda bad writing if you ask me.



This was indeed a problem in the Siege of Odawara in SW4, because it gave the impression that everyone loved Hideyoshi and that the Hojo were the reason for all the ills of Japan, along with the Akechi, Shibata and the Azai, so they deserved to be put to low.


At least in SoS, it seems that the Tokugawa accept Toyotomi because they are trying to look for a certain moment instead of looking like they love Hideyoshi in everything he does. Yukimura at least seems to consider that they are being a little unjust to the Hoj (not that Ujimasa is not a fool, but you can not blame the whole clan for acting like a common samurai and defending the clan itself).


In fact, Yukimura would be a hypocrite if he were to criticize the entire clan for being "stubborn," considering what he did later. (and perhaps because Ujimasa thinks that somehow stubbornness will help protect the clan, it would be different if he wanted to die for his own ideals ...)











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Kuroda Kanbei
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I'm not sure what you mean the Hojo have pointed out how insane this is because in the "Siege of Otate", it seems the Takeda (or at least Masayuki) were the only ones who did not understand why Saburo and Kagekatsu were fighting. (Saburo and Aya literally tell Masauyuki to shut up because he did not understand the "Uesugi spirit")


I'm talking about the general dynamic between Shingen, Kenshin and Hojo when they are together.
It usually involves Shingen and Kenshin saying how awesome their wars are and Hojo being annoyed by it.
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