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Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada; New Characters: Sanada Masayuki, Chacha, Sasuke, Lady Muramatsu, Takeda Katsuyori, Tokugawa Hidetada
Topic Started: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:15 pm (168,866 Views)
wodash
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undefeated in all directions
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Hanzo didn't even appear in the SW animu, that's how insignificant he is compared to even fictional characters like kunoichi.
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Hanzo got screwed over by the change in the series to a more historical tone. In SW1 they were banking more on legends and lore. In later games they decided for a more historical plot, particularly after SW2 from what I gather.

Hanzo falls into a similar category as Keiji, Musashi, Kotaro, etc. where he isn't all that amazing historically but as a warrior of legend he has a lot more going for him. He benefits more from a semi-fictional plot where his supposedly legendary ninjer skills see more utility.
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Fūma
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The Dragon Has Returned
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Hanzo needs his own Ninja Gaiden -esque spin-off game to bring him back to his full glory. He was awesome in SW1 but his story, involvement, objectives and design have only got worse after each game.
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Also it doesn't help that they pretty much removed any escape through Iga (post Honnoji) for Ieyasu and Hanzo. Even if they go with the historical tone, they could at least have that.
Edited by Rance, Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:29 am.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

IIRC, he wasn't in the anime because he was historically dead by that point. But I agree, he has become less and less relevant since the roster started getting bigger and he ended up getting overshadowed by his own team. He could also go back to being friends with Tadakatsu, they seemed to have a mutual understanding and supported each other when they needed it. He can also be close to Yoshimoto and try to protect him pre-Okehazama and meet Ieyasu at Okehazama, protecting him following the latter's death.

....wait, this isn't the Hanzo thread :lol: but you guys get it. Most likely Yukimura-den will feature these guys as villains, so it'll be a new, and quite interesting take on the Tokugawa
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The Outsider
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^
Did you just say them showing the Tokugawa as villains will be "new" and "interesting" :lol: ! That's how Koei have always shown them with there bias towards Mitsunari and Co.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

Your Ishida bias is showing! :lol:

Yeah, I totally did. They do show them as the villains from that perspective, if you're playing Mitsunari or any Western side. Though I'm sure they'll be the be all end all villains in this as I'm sure we won't get to play the Tokugawa side except for free mode.

Hopefully Ina does more than what she did in the anime besides the generic holding hand to heart and crying Nobuyuki's name all the time. Though she did slap Hidetada, that was pretty cool. She needs to slap more people
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bluefiend
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Rance
Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:37 am
Hanzo got screwed over by the change in the series to a more historical tone. In SW1 they were banking more on legends and lore. In later games they decided for a more historical plot, particularly after SW2 from what I gather.

Hanzo falls into a similar category as Keiji, Musashi, Kotaro, etc. where he isn't all that amazing historically but as a warrior of legend he has a lot more going for him. He benefits more from a semi-fictional plot where his supposedly legendary ninjer skills see more utility.
eh, I don't think so, I feel like certain SW1 characters got screwed over more by having some characters they were supposed to be in contrast or complementary towards having their personalities removed, changed, or simply having had the relationship erased. Hanzo and Kunoichi could no longer be thing because Kunoichi was removed, which was terrible for Hanzo because he could bounce off of her really well due to them being so different(For example he could act cheeky or arrogant with Kunoichi and Goemon as they were either equal to or weaker than him and a lot less serious than Kotaro). Nobunaga and Noh had a lot less to work with in SW2 when Oichi became older, lost her optimism which contrasted and complemented them both and left the Oda altogether. And a lot of characters lost a lot to oppose when Nobunaga became an estranged good guy rather than an arguably cruel bad guy, even the conflict between Mitsuhide and Nobunaga itself suffered as Mitsuhide's reason for opposing Nobunaga couldn't be so black and white anymore. And in addition for whatever reason they erased the triangle between Ranmaru, Mitsuhide, and Nobunaga as well(Why?!?!).

Yet at the same time they've continued to show us that they really don't care all that much about history as Sakon continues to serve the Takeda, Mitsunari, Yukimura, and Kanetsugu continue serving Hideyoshi, Shingen and Kenshin in battles they weren't in, Yoshitsugu gets to serve the Azai when he wasn't there, Ujiyasu gets to serve all the way until Odawara. One of the few characters that didn't suffer all that much is Magoichi and that's only because all of his relationships have managed to stay in tact, minus the one he had with Keiji(Although his reasons for hating for Nobunaga have gotten a bit more contrived it still works rather well, and has the benefit of showing Magoichi himself as a more flawed character).

I'd say it's less that these characters suffer because they're legends but more because they don't get much spotlight anymore, the relationships they were built to work around were destroyed, and for whatever reason koei refuses to let them replace those relationships or give them the screentime to build new ones(well they tried with Hanzo in SW2, but you can't really bounce off of Kotaro like that and his SW3 relationship with Nene was quite a bit better).

This is also why I liked SW1's castle stages, it allowed every character to shine without having someone else hog up the screentime.
Edited by bluefiend, Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:19 pm.
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Fūma
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The director has said that character relations between each entry tend to be altered, strengtened or omitted because the development team wants to portray the characters and relationships in different angles. This is great because it keeps things fresh and avoid making things stagnant.

The same principle should be applied stronger to the gameplay too... KT seems to be afraid of letting go of old ideas instead of continuosly exploring with new ones. I mean it does happen but not enough IMO. As I've said before a Hanzo spinoff would be great because it'd allow them to explore with vastly different gameplay mechanics like stealth, assassination, platforming and maybe even some puzzles too.
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garnix
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Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:55 pm
The director has said that character relations between each entry tend to be altered, strengtened or omitted because the development team wants to portray the characters and relationships in different angles. This is great because it keeps things fresh and avoid making things stagnant.

The same principle should be applied stronger to the gameplay too... KT seems to be afraid of letting go of old ideas instead of continuosly exploring with new ones. I mean it does happen but not enough IMO. As I've said before a Hanzo spinoff would be great because it'd allow them to explore with vastly different gameplay mechanics like stealth, assassination, platforming and maybe even some puzzles too.
They said they would like to include stealth feature in upcoming games, taking some inspiration from Assassins Creed. They said this would make a more diversified gameplay.
We might see this kind of things in DW9 actually...
No need for a Hanzo spin-off if they are able to find a way to implement it in the main games somehow.
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Amakusa
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Remember in SW1 when Hanzo was Yukimura's rival? That was crazy.

Whenever that fat turtle Cookie Monster Ieyasu ran away, it was always Hanzo there to stop you. Hanzo got in your way a lot in that game. Hanzo who jumped out of the shadows like a flippin Internet Meme Ninja and murderized everything.

I mean, sure, Hanzo is dead by the time the Osaka Campaign happens, but that Hanzo was the best one.

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Hopefully Ina does more than what she did in the anime besides the generic holding hand to heart and crying Nobuyuki's name all the time. Though she did slap Hidetada, that was pretty cool. She needs to slap more people


That was flippin terrible; there was like no point to her being there and she never shot at anyone at any point in the show.

They needed to stick Ina with Hidetada more because she was like the only one in the show that wouldn't put up with his bullcrap (and unlike most every other character probably the only one that could considering just about every other character is subordinate to Hidetada and he could actually do something to them).
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Rance
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At first I was inclined to disagree with bluefiend, but after reading Amakusa's post, i think it's a combination of factors.

I don't think it's the alteration of relationships that has hurt Hanzo so much as spotlight stealing. In SW1, Amakusa's right that he was the main guy in the Tokugawa story. And that was because...he was pretty much the only guy in the Tokugawa story. Ieyasu wasn't playable and neither was Honda or Ina. Hanzo had the entire Tokugawa story to himself and was essentially the main character.

I feel like my point still stands though. In SW1, KOEI was willing to have goofy stages like Dance of Osaka or Goemon stealing Hideyoshi's ****, or even escaping from a boiling cauldron and running wild. It also had stages like Hanzo and Ieyasu's escape through Iga. These stages added something to characters who otherwise did little historically. While KOEI is still willing to use fictional license, their overall plot is nowadays so historical and by the books that anything fictional they do is shoehorned and peripheral. And I feel like this really hurts characters like Hanzo and Keiji more than the removal of a relationship between Hanzo and Kunoichi or changing certain other character relationships. If they seriously had a stage that involved escaping through Iga, with Hanzo as the main protagonist, Hanzo would get a lot more out of that than if they just reignited some kind of sarcastic repartee between him and Kunoichi again.
Edited by Rance, Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:08 am.
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__Wang Yi__
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General
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Wait... Does this have any chance of coming to the west? And if not, then shouldn't it be sengoku musou Samara maru?
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

If Koei is smart, yes, seeing that Capcom isn't putting their version here. But we'll see
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SAMURAIWARRIOR 2010
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Kat that what i was going to ask that game looks beyond Awesome. :yukimura: GO Sanada. :yukimura:
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bluefiend
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Rance
Mon Aug 15, 2016 3:00 am
At first I was inclined to disagree with bluefiend, but after reading Amakusa's post, i think it's a combination of factors.

I don't think it's the alteration of relationships that has hurt Hanzo so much as spotlight stealing. In SW1, Amakusa's right that he was the main guy in the Tokugawa story. And that was because...he was pretty much the only guy in the Tokugawa story. Ieyasu wasn't playable and neither was Honda or Ina. Hanzo had the entire Tokugawa story to himself and was essentially the main character.

I feel like my point still stands though. In SW1, KOEI was willing to have goofy stages like Dance of Osaka or Goemon stealing Hideyoshi's ****, or even escaping from a boiling cauldron and running wild. It also had stages like Hanzo and Ieyasu's escape through Iga. These stages added something to characters who otherwise did little historically. While KOEI is still willing to use fictional license, their overall plot is nowadays so historical and by the books that anything fictional they do is shoehorned and peripheral. And I feel like this really hurts characters like Hanzo and Keiji more than the removal of a relationship between Hanzo and Kunoichi or changing certain other character relationships. If they seriously had a stage that involved escaping through Iga, with Hanzo as the main protagonist, Hanzo would get a lot more out of that than if they just reignited some kind of sarcastic repartee between him and Kunoichi again.
Wasn't the escape from Iga in Sw3 or 4 though?


That said I do agree with you that flavor stages like Goemon's castle stages and Dance of Kyoto added a lot of well...flavor. Thinking back on it though Dance of Kyoto didn't actually add anything to Keiji it just expounded on things about him that other stages already told us, but it was great for Okuni and Goemon.

That aside, what would be the point of having Hanzo star in a stage if it can't highlight any of his relationships? If he has no one to talk to or bounce off of how would that expand his character at all. My thing is, I don't actually think being historically important makes for better characters in this series. On some occasions it can guarantee that characters get to participate in certain battles or perform certain feats each game but even then as we can see with characters like Naomasa, Yukimura, or Katsuie, having actual historical achievements doesn't make for an interesting character. The only things that's really necessary for an interesting character is good relationships and screentime. For example they could have someone like Oichi appear in every battle and do absolutely nothing in each battle, but if she has some good dialogue with her brother and Nagamasa she's an interesting character all the same.

Just look at Tadakatsu he was in virtually every major battle in the era yet everyone says he's boring. Conversely Mitsunari wasn't really in any battles yet he's one of the more interesting characters in the series simply because he has a unique personality and a lot of people to talk too. That aside they can always make up stuff for characters that weren't actually involved in battles. Like Keiji for example came out of SW4 and SW3 looking like a pretty good character thanks in part to Toshie, Tadakatsu, and his own personality.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'd rather have someone like Kai who did nothing historically have a few lines of dialogue with Hayakawa than watch Tadakatsu pull off one of his feats in battle in a cutscene(These moments are only fun when the characters involved in them are fun imo).

Also, I don't think everything fictional they do comes off as forced. Mitsunari's lead up to Sekigahara with him losing just about every battle against the outer clans, Takatora joining the Tokugawa like 16 years early, Yoshitsugu serving the Azai, and Ujiyasu lasting all the way up until Odawara all felt pretty natural to me.

And how can things being fictional hurt characters like Hanzo and Keiji but not characters like Kanetsugu and Mitsunari? then again this probably goes into this last issue:

Also your completely right about spotlight being an issue as well. Relationships or not; no character can shine if they aren't on screen.

One last bit, as for evidence of how the characters in SW1 were built for each other an entire piece of Hanzo's personality was inaccessible up until SW4 due to Goemon being gone(and still seems to be as they never interact): His hate of rogue ninja's. In all the SW games rogue ninja's is the only thing Hanzo has actual hatred(well that and Kotaro Fuuma) for and it's a trait he can't express with any other character in the series.
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Zai Tong
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I forgot here most popular characters are the ones who scream and act all lovey dovey
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wodash
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Katatonia
Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:53 pm
IIRC, he wasn't in the anime because he was historically dead by that point.
well so does Kotaro Fuuma IIRC, i don't recall anything about fuuma raiding Kudoyama before the SW animu :wacko: that could've been easily given to Hanzo since Ieyasu is dying to have yukimura rebel against him so he can kill him after all, having Hanzo provoking Yukimura would've had the same effect, and yet they gave that role to a Hojo relic that wasn't supposed to be there anymore

and then there's Kunoichi of course :wacko: they didn't even give her a name, which makes it awkward in some scenes where normally someone would scream her name :uh: (like when she got shot in front of Yukimura)
Edited by wodash, Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:35 am.
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Makörë
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Kotaro Fūma is the title to the Fūma clan leader, many men used it.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

Yes, but I think the Fuma clan died out after Odawara. Then again, this particular Kotaro was full of folk tales because I'm sure he wasn't really a red-headed giant in rave wear walking out of club Shampoo. The folk tales said he had red hair though, so it makes sense? But I digress.

...i actually forgot he was in the anime 😳
Edited by Katatonia, Mon Aug 15, 2016 5:17 am.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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Zai Tong
Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:28 am
I forgot here most popular characters are the ones who scream and act all lovey dovey
C'mon man you know if Tadakatsu had a wife he'd dote on her like nothing else. :P

And yeah, like Saika Magoichi, Fuuma Kotarou was a title serveral men used, and IIRC the last Fuuma is said to have lived until past Osaka (he got caught by some police in Edo because another ninja ratted him out). Hence why Magoichi and Kotaro can be treated as a single character with a longass lifespan without too much trouble.
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AntonKutovoi
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wodash
Mon Aug 15, 2016 4:34 am
Katatonia
Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:53 pm
IIRC, he wasn't in the anime because he was historically dead by that point.
well so does Kotaro Fuuma IIRC, i don't recall anything about fuuma raiding Kudoyama before the SW animu :wacko: that could've been easily given to Hanzo since Ieyasu is dying to have yukimura rebel against him so he can kill him after all, having Hanzo provoking Yukimura would've had the same effect, and yet they gave that role to a Hojo relic that wasn't supposed to be there anymore

and then there's Kunoichi of course :wacko: they didn't even give her a name, which makes it awkward in some scenes where normally someone would scream her name :uh: (like when she got shot in front of Yukimura)
I honestly doubt Hanzo killing Naomasa would've worked well.
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Fūma
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garnix
Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:36 pm
Fuuma
Sun Aug 14, 2016 8:55 pm
The director has said that character relations between each entry tend to be altered, strengtened or omitted because the development team wants to portray the characters and relationships in different angles. This is great because it keeps things fresh and avoid making things stagnant.

The same principle should be applied stronger to the gameplay too... KT seems to be afraid of letting go of old ideas instead of continuosly exploring with new ones. I mean it does happen but not enough IMO. As I've said before a Hanzo spinoff would be great because it'd allow them to explore with vastly different gameplay mechanics like stealth, assassination, platforming and maybe even some puzzles too.
They said they would like to include stealth feature in upcoming games, taking some inspiration from Assassins Creed. They said this would make a more diversified gameplay.
We might see this kind of things in DW9 actually...
No need for a Hanzo spin-off if they are able to find a way to implement it in the main games somehow.
I didn't say we necessarily need a Hanzo spin-off for these gameplay mechanics, it's just that it has potential for them if KT decides to do another character-focused SW spin-off after this. And this is SW we're talking about so I dunno why you're dragging DW into this.


And Iga stage appeared in SW1 as Crossing Iga and in SW3 as Escape through Iga. I can see why it didn't appear in SW4 seeing how they wanted to end Tokugawa chapter at Mikatagahara and keep all of the prologues 3-4 stages long, but it could've been part of Naomasa's story in SW4-II in my opinion.
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Lady Of Bow
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Still there's nothing news for Koei... :( might wanna wait tgs 2016 for more info and new trailers of this game
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wodash
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AntonKutovoi
Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 am
I honestly doubt Hanzo killing Naomasa would've worked well.
nobody killed naomasa, he died of his Sekigahara wounds+forcing himself to battle/not resting, not because Fuuma fatally injured/killed him, mirroring his actual historical death cause :uh:

Hanzo could've tranq-ed Naomasa sincehe's an ally or something and still have Naomasa die due to the same injuries a bit later, so yeah
Edited by wodash, Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:09 am.
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