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Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada; New Characters: Sanada Masayuki, Chacha, Sasuke, Lady Muramatsu, Takeda Katsuyori, Tokugawa Hidetada
Topic Started: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:15 pm (168,844 Views)
Amakusa
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Emperor's Retainer
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bluefiend
Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:08 am
Nobody else seems to see it, but I think you just might be on to something here Raiko. In fact I think we should take it even farther! normal hyper attack strings should now go on infinitely, affect officers, and be unblockable! Why should we bother having silly things like gameplay interrupt stage flow and mission completion?
No, seriously, do a Horse Musou. That does everything you're describing, even rolling over the high-morale troops. The problem is people are too quick to Hyper attack spamming to notice it.
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wodash
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undefeated in all directions
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Amakusa
Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:50 am
Raiko Z
Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:28 am
No, man. All we need is to apply another button to activate Hyper Horse Rush where we can trample every single enemy in our way to reach absolute victory.
You can already do that... if you weren't too busy using Hyper attacks on them to bother getting on a Horse.

Actually from a grinding standpoint the Horse Musou is better than Hyper attacks in SW4-II
the horse is already broken without the ability to do damage anyways in SW4-II the ability to fill both Musou and Awakening/whatever gauge really fast by simply riding around is just broken :wacko:

also, superpowered horses already existed in KT's musou game before, specifically in the DW6 games, a fully developed Red Hare King+Flash element=ram any enemy with the horse and it'll murder them
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Raiko Z
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Dynasty Recon Chinalands
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Amakusa
Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:50 am
Raiko Z
Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:28 am
No, man. All we need is to apply another button to activate Hyper Horse Rush where we can trample every single enemy in our way to reach absolute victory.
You can already do that... if you weren't too busy using Hyper attacks on them to bother getting on a Horse.

Actually from a grinding standpoint the Horse Musou is better than Hyper attacks in SW4-II
Hyper Horse Rush would be superior because it won't need recharge like Horse Musou. Horse Musou is for n00bz

l33t
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Makörë
Makörë
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Andreas-andi
Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:47 am
Well, I guess they do know its a horrible mistake to keep the western fans from receiving the game. I really hope they don't cut PS3 from the western release for no reason like they did with Berserk, though.
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Zai Tong
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Have any of you played empires ? hyper attacks when not on easy are almost useless

When your enemies have the flashing red bar your hyper attack is pointless and you move slow too
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Fūma
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That's because they nerfed the hyper attacks immediately after SW4.
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Yeah it always kinda confused me when people acted like hyper attacks were the end-all be all of gameplay in SW4-subseries. Yeah, in the main game, it pretty much was, but all subsequent titles (II, Chronicles 3, Empires) makes it much more balanced. Frankly I find Samurai Warriors 4 (outside of vanilla 4 itself) a lot more fun than Dynasty Warriors.
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Last_Stallion
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It's not just about the hyper attacks themselves, but the fact that their introduction led to the removal of other attacks. And then there's the aforementioned introduction of the hyper style characters which feel so pointless compared to the other styles.
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Zai Tong
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StormBlessed
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Well after sw1 mitsuhide moveset has been destroyed
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bluefiend
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Uesugi Kenshin
Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:09 am
Yeah it always kinda confused me when people acted like hyper attacks were the end-all be all of gameplay in SW4-subseries. Yeah, in the main game, it pretty much was, but all subsequent titles (II, Chronicles 3, Empires) makes it much more balanced. Frankly I find Samurai Warriors 4 (outside of vanilla 4 itself) a lot more fun than Dynasty Warriors.
It's still not balanced. Being unable to use them because enemies are glowing red is just as bad as them being ridiculously overpowered when they are usable. Switching between movesets is never a choice, but is instead something you do because you have to, moreover making hyper attacks useless against peons some of the time when they're already useless against officers is incredibly bad game design, who creates moves that straight up don't work more than half the time? And then when they do work they essentially throw the game onto easy mode, like wtf is that? Not even Devil may cry's devil trigger or Onimusha's Oni forms or even DW strikeforce's fury forms warp a games difficulty by that much.

The problem isn't that hyper attacks are too strong or too weak, the whole problem is the concept of hyper attacks themselves. An attack or ability in a game that entirely trivializes a set of opponents(having an ability that performs better against one set of enemies vs another is a different thing entirely) in a video game is inherently broken. There's a reason call of duty players can't use 1 hit kill zombie weapons in campaign mode or Grand theft auto players don't start the game with 1 hit kill cheats automatically activated.

Now I know godspeed isn't a 1 hit kill of course, but it's so hilariously powerful that it might as well be, as peons have absolutely no way of countering it, all they can do is maybe survive one string by blocking some of it, which is pointless as the dash sends the player far outside of their attack range. Musou attacks in previous games can't even stand up to what hyper attacks are now.

Actually the best comparison for hyper attacks are DW8's insanely strong rage mode musou's...except hyper attacks never run out, cover just as or nearly as much range horizontally, and can't be used on officers.

Also, the ways they've tried to balance are also really terrible, they've balanced it by making it so you can't use it in certain situations? wha? why? Just fix the hyper attacks themselves, otherwise you'll still end up with situations where players get to be way too strong. and on top of that your managing to serve as an annoyance when they can't use their moves for whatever arbitrary reason you've set forth(the shield peons that block hyper attacks, remind me of the crappy angel/devil weapon system the new DMC had that everybody hated). Sengoku Basara for example doesn't have any moments where an enemy can disable or negate a characters abilities.
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wodash
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bluefiend
Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:31 am
It's still not balanced. Being unable to use them because enemies are glowing red is just as bad as them being ridiculously overpowered when they are usable. Switching between movesets is never a choice, but is instead something you do because you have to, moreover making hyper attacks useless against peons some of the time when they're already useless against officers is incredibly bad game design, who creates moves that straight up don't work more than half the time? And then when they do work they essentially throw the game onto easy mode, like wtf is that? Not even Devil may cry's devil trigger or Onimusha's Oni forms or even DW strikeforce's fury forms warp a games difficulty by that much.
pretty much, in SW4-II Godspeed only works if you use it while you're under Awakening/Rage/whatever unless your morale is up the wazoo(during which it's pointless to kill peons already), making Hyper useless early game but once you get the active skills that allows you to fill and refill those gauges easily you'll pretty much break the game again like SW4 using Godspeed and Musou spams
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Ryō Genken
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Godspeed attacks are useless. I'd wish they make godspeed a fullfledged alternate s-string by the next SW5.
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Raiko Z
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Dynasty Recon Chinalands
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We need X button strings, O button strings, and also Share button strings.
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dragongaiden
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First Lieutenant
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What the moveset needs is that be like Sengoku Basara. The characters feel like unique protagonists of hack'n and slash game... I never thank that I will say that...
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Ryō Genken
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Raiko Z
Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:59 am
We need X button strings, O button strings, and also Share button strings.
That's even better if they manage to combine the combos. Like:
STTOTSS or OOOTTSST.

Lately i've been thinking that musou attacks are generally only used as oneoff attack to get away or something it clearly needs to be more than that.
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wodash
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undefeated in all directions
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Raiko Z
Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:59 am
We need X button strings, O button strings, and also Share button strings.
that way the "mash x to win" that non Musou game player kept labeling the games with will finally actually makes sense :haha:
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bluefiend
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Raiko Z
Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:59 am
We need X button strings, O button strings, and also Share button strings.
This is what I would love to see. Multiple attack strings per character would be fantastic, especially with jump/roll/special stance cancels and a way to "freeze" and "resume" movesets in place between them. Like say you use Square string charge 4, then cancel into your triangle string up until the middle of charge 3, then cancel back into the square string to finish charge 4 where you left off.
Ryō Genken
Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:55 am
Raiko Z
Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:59 am
We need X button strings, O button strings, and also Share button strings.
That's even better if they manage to combine the combos. Like:
STTOTSS or OOOTTSST.

Lately i've been thinking that musou attacks are generally only used as oneoff attack to get away or something it clearly needs to be more than that.
This makes me remember how much I hated how you could only counter enemy musou's in DW8 with your own musou. Maybe a counter/parry system could work?
Edited by bluefiend, Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:57 pm.
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wodash
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Ryō Genken
Fri Sep 23, 2016 9:55 am
Lately i've been thinking that musou attacks are generally only used as oneoff attack to get away or something it clearly needs to be more than that.
in SW4 games? it's super effective, at last on my experience, boring, but super effective, especially with the infinite availability of them via a ot of means be it from horse or active skills :wacko:
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Uesugi Kenshin
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Mewshuji
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Fair enough on the fact that hyper attacks essentially removing strong attacks (there were several moves that were BnB for me whenever I used Ranmaru that were activated with a strong attack), but I think that making them ineffective in certain situations isn't a bad thing. Their presence is meant to make slogging through droves of enemies faster and more fun, while keeping the challenging enemies challenging as they're supposed to be- which they succeed at. One could argue that, then, that's a lazy way of accomplishing it, but I wouldn't agree with that either- I still feel it was and still is a much needed addition. I do feel bringing back strong attacks would be of great help, perhaps relegating hyper attacks to only certain characters, or switching out hyper and strong with a button press

As a side note, I also think that the idea that a game needs to be *hard* to be fun is an inherently flawed idea. That's not to say an easy game should lack challenge, or that hard games can't be fun, but rather, if it's not a game's goal to not be challenging per se, then there's nothing wrong with that. A game can want to tell a story, or be a stress reliever, or be entertaining in some other way. And frankly, it's not Musou's schtick to provide a hard challenge 24/7. A bit of one, sure- fighting a Lu Bu expy is always a laugh until you get your head bashed in, or turning up the difficulty level to change enemy reactions and such- but overall it's meant to be a pick-up-and-play sort of title. A nice beat-'em-up for you to feel like a badass.

That's my opinion anyway. My defense of SW4 style gameplay, to be exact, not Musou as a whole- I do feel the franchise could stand to evolve. But it doesn't expressly need as desperate a tune up as people act like it, especially with hyper attacks in the mix.

Also I'm 99% sure Raiko was being sarcastic. You guys do realize he said "Share Button" right? That's hard-mapped to not do anything in a game, just bring up the share menu. <<;;

I could go into the nitty-gritty, like I said earlier- talking about multiple strings per character and what have you- but that was never going to happen in Sanadamaru, or in any other game using 4 as a base, so it's off topic to discuss it here.
Edited by Uesugi Kenshin, Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:43 am.
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bluefiend
Emperor's Retainer
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Uesugi Kenshin
Sat Sep 24, 2016 2:38 am
Fair enough on the fact that hyper attacks essentially removing strong attacks (there were several moves that were BnB for me whenever I used Ranmaru that were activated with a strong attack), but I think that making them ineffective in certain situations isn't a bad thing. Their presence is meant to make slogging through droves of enemies faster and more fun, while keeping the challenging enemies challenging as they're supposed to be- which they succeed at. One could argue that, then, that's a lazy way of accomplishing it, but I wouldn't agree with that either- I still feel it was and still is a much needed addition. I do feel bringing back strong attacks would be of great help, perhaps relegating hyper attacks to only certain characters, or switching out hyper and strong with a button press

As a side note, I also think that the idea that a game needs to be *hard* to be fun is an inherently flawed idea. That's not to say an easy game should lack challenge, or that hard games can't be fun, but rather, if it's not a game's goal to not be challenging per se, then there's nothing wrong with that. A game can want to tell a story, or be a stress reliever, or be entertaining in some other way. And frankly, it's not Musou's schtick to provide a hard challenge 24/7. A bit of one, sure- fighting a Lu Bu expy is always a laugh until you get your head bashed in, or turning up the difficulty level to change enemy reactions and such- but overall it's meant to be a pick-up-and-play sort of title. A nice beat-'em-up for you to feel like a badass.

That's my opinion anyway. My defense of SW4 style gameplay, to be exact, not Musou as a whole- I do feel the franchise could stand to evolve. But it doesn't expressly need as desperate a tune up as people act like it, especially with hyper attacks in the mix.

Also I'm 99% sure Raiko was being sarcastic. You guys do realize he said "Share Button" right? That's hard-mapped to not do anything in a game, just bring up the share menu. <<;;

I could go into the nitty-gritty, like I said earlier- talking about multiple strings per character and what have you- but that was never going to happen in Sanadamaru, or in any other game using 4 as a base, so it's off topic to discuss it here.
But the thing is for one, making them ineffective is annoying to the player and only limits the players actions, that is choosing to execute a hyper attack over a normal attack stops being a choice and instead simply becomes: I can use hyper attacks here so I will or I can't use hyper attacks here so I won't, further as a player having half your options cut off just because you're in one scenario as opposed to another isn't any fun either, I mean does anyone ever actually enjoy those stages in games where they take away all your equipment and abilities that you worked so hard to gain throughout the game?

Slogging through enemies mindlessly while tapping one button isn't fun, it's just tedious; if there's no challenge in doing it, then there's nothing there to keep the player engaged while playing, if the player isn't engaged then they probably aren't having fun. There's no difference between killing peons with hyper attacks as opposed to say mining with the laser in No Man's Sky.

As for only certain enemies being meant to be challenging...well if that's the case then why have the peons there at all?(I would also argue that the challenging enemies also aren't challenging with the whole execution mechanic at 50%) Moreover the "challenging enemies in these games difficulty is also affected by having weaker peons. For example fighting an officer in SW4 is far easier than it was in DW4 because it's basically a one on one as the troops will rarely interfere, whereas in DW4 if you left your back open to peons for too long you could be looking to get hit by a full C5 attack string.

That said, I don't actually care about strong attacks(You mean C1's right?) They could easily be turned into attacks where you just hold the button down to activate them anyway, I'd much rather they just turn the hyper string into a full fledged moveset itself(if they wanted to it could have some differences from the regular moveset, but they should be small differences not massive gaping differences like hyper attacks to normal attacks).

As for games not needing to be hard. Well I agree they don't necessarily have to be hard, but they do have to be engaging. Peons being worthless isn't engaging and thusly isn't fun. And generally a game being difficult is the easiest way to make it engaging.

Also, I've just started watching the Sanadamaru drama and nobuyuki seems to be really loyal in it(but I won't spoil anything about it/him). But thinking about it, I hope they acknowledge the fact that the Sanada were Tokugawa vassals that left Ieyasu during the Sekigahara campaign(during a campaign against the Uesugi no less!) to join Mitsunari(excluding Nobuyuki of course). I think it could add a good bit to the Sanada/Tokugawa conflict if they do fight under the Tokugawa at some points instead of just against them.
Edited by bluefiend, Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:07 am.
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Rance
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Yuki Oh. No.
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Nah I agree with Raiko. We need share button strings where characters like gracia take pictures of the battlefield and post them to various different social media.
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Raiko Z
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Dynasty Recon Chinalands
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Rance
Sat Sep 24, 2016 7:38 am
Nah I agree with Raiko. We need share button strings where characters like gracia take pictures of the battlefield and post them to various different social media.
roflmao

Gotta make a petition at Change.org to change Gracia's weapon into a Smartphone.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

But will they have the Selfie Fatality? That's what Sanadamaru needs
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Mr. Kamikaze
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God of War
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you take your PS4 to any Blockbuster to get the pictures Gracia took printed.
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Katatonia
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destroy.erase.improve

Sengoku Musou Snap, Shikoku/Akechi-Hosokawa Edition :lol:
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