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Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada; New Characters: Sanada Masayuki, Chacha, Sasuke, Lady Muramatsu, Takeda Katsuyori, Tokugawa Hidetada
Topic Started: Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:15 pm (168,834 Views)
AntonKutovoi
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Legend
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Mibu Kyoshiro
Wed Oct 5, 2016 8:23 pm
AntonKutovoi
Wed Oct 5, 2016 7:54 pm
And once again I fail to see why people want Nobunaga to be represented as a cruel villian. Why? It's not at he was more cruel than other lords. Because he was powerful? And what of it? Because the game needs black and white characters? Screw this mindset. Because it will give motivation to the characters to oppose him? Give them an actual motivation - they seek to built a different world rather han Nobunaga. SW3 had the best Nobunaga - a charismatic person, who wants to move the land forward, but at the same time ready to bury everyone, who stands in his path, not some moronic demon, like in Basara or Onimusha or crazy psycho, who doesn't give a damn about anything like in SW4.


But you just described just about any bishie character in Musou, 2 many well-liked and charismatic characters with vanilla personalities. Come on, have some cruel people, have some sadists, unrelenting ********, pure evil, undoubtedly villainous, pure smugness, bone-crushing, peon destroying demons in human skin. That's what Nooby is represented like in fiction and sets him apart because everyone else is 2 damn heroic for their own good. Hell, Yukimura's supposed to be the most heroic of all, even going as far as getting Takeshi Kusao to voice the character and his heroic charisma has been lost in a sea of pure vanila blandness because the fujoshi can't love older buff men that like being pure evil. :rolleyes:
I don't want Nobunaga to be a saint. I just don't want him to be a boring MWAHAHAHA villian. In SW3-era games he was more of an anti-hero (or anti-villian), rather than a straight villian, like in SW4.
And not only it worked well in the story, but Nobunaga actually ended up being pretty popular character.

SW3 poll - 17th place
Chronicles 2nd poll - 6th place (though he shared it with some other characters)
But as soon as they butchered his personailty in SW4 - 35th place.
Edited by AntonKutovoi, Wed Oct 5, 2016 8:43 pm.
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Mibu Kyoshiro
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Here's the thing. Like with BASARA, Musou and many other games, don't work with Anti-hero or hero Nobunaga. Very specific games like Nobunaga's ambition exist to paint him and show him as a charismatic anti-hero. Specific mangas like Ikusa no ko exist to show him become a traumatised anti-hero who meets his end in joy, with the person he considers his best friend and most loyal retainer.

In Musou, he's the straight up bad guy, everything, from his design, to his whimsical deep tone that Kosugi does and accentuates when he's serious, to his glowing swords and outright Psycho-Power driven moveset. He stands out, miles beyond anyone else in the cast and yet the story wants to make him vanilla and the more things go on, his moveset becomes worse and less unique and his swords just lose all the glow they had before. Character assassination / regression is never the way, especially when the character is the only one in the story to do these things. If Musou was filled with characters like Nooby, fair enough, one or two changing to something different to include more personality traits would be welcome.
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AntonKutovoi
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But it DID work in SW3, that's the thing. He still was memorable as anti-hero and probably had the most personality of the entire cast. Problem was (and it's still there) with Mitsuhide's personality. And then SW4 happened and Nobunaga turned into "Oh, betray me, please, oh I so want to be betrayed, oh yes, baby".
And then Chronicles 3 happened and I got confused: first he had a personality similart to SW3-era games (his post-Okehazama dialogue with Ieyasu about killing escaping Imagawa's soldiers was great), then suddenly turned into SW4 Nobunaga, then historical events started kicking in, with order to kill Kanbei's child, which would fit pre-SW4 Nobunaga, but not SW4 Nobunaga. I'm not touching What-If scenario,even though Nobunaga the Farmer was hilarious.
Edited by AntonKutovoi, Wed Oct 5, 2016 9:11 pm.
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Makörë
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That actually adds a lot of depth into Nobunaga's character. Have you ever thought that Nobunaga may actually feel bad for all the power he got? He can't just drop all he got, he will ruin many lives and bring chaos again if he does, so he expects someone to defeat him to be free from the responsibility with the land. In fact, if I am not mistaken, someone actually says something that ties up with this in the game, he asks another what will happen once Nobunaga unites the land, that it will be a bad thing, since Nobunaga is not a peaceful ruler, he lives for war and once peace arrives, he won't have to do anything. As such, Nobunaga would certainly want to be killed, so that he dies in the war that he loves so much and someone else who actually wants peace can take over the land and take care of it.
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AntonKutovoi
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Makörë
Wed Oct 5, 2016 9:02 pm
That actually adds a lot of depth into Nobunaga's character. Have you ever thought that Nobunaga may actually feel bad for all the power he got? He can't just drop all he got, he will ruin many lives and bring chaos again if he does, so he expects someone to defeat him to be free from the responsibility with the land. In fact, if I am not mistaken, someone actually says something that ties up with this in the game, he asks another what will happen once Nobunaga unites the land, that it will be a bad thing, since Nobunaga is not a peaceful ruler, he lives for war and once peace arrives, he won't have to do anything. As such, Nobunaga would certainly want to be killed, so that he dies in the war that he loves so much and someone else who actually wants peace can take over the land and take care of it.
While I agree that being a good ruler of peaceful times wouldn't fit Nobunaga, I think I prefer the way Nobunaga's Ambition handled it - it shows that as soon Nobunaga stops the wars withing the country, he is ready to move forward, actually being the reason why Mitsuhide betrays him. It also was present in SW3, where he wasn't really interested in the peaceful and calm land without moving (calling it a dead country).


EDIT: Anyway, I think we should stop talking about Nobunaga, since it becomes heavily off-topic. Back to the new characters:

Anyone else thinking it's funny how Katsuyori have the same VA as Takakage? It's like Okamoto now decided to voice all sons in the series (+Oda Nobuyuki in Geten no Hana) :XD
Edited by AntonKutovoi, Wed Oct 5, 2016 9:33 pm.
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Mibu Kyoshiro
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AntonKutovoi
Wed Oct 5, 2016 8:54 pm
But it DID work in SW3, that's the thing. He still was memorable as anti-hero and probably had the most personality of the entire cast. Problem was (and it's still there) with Mitsuhide's personality. And then SW4 happened and Nobunaga turned into "Oh, betray me, please, oh I so want to be betrayed, oh yes, baby".
And then Chronicles 3 happened and I got confused: first he had a personality similart to SW3-era games (his post-Okehazama dialogue with Ieyasu about killing escaping Imagawa's soldiers was great), then suddenly turned into SW4 Nobunaga, then historical events started kicking in, with order to kill Kanbei's child, which would fit pre-SW4 Nobunaga, but not SW4 Nobunaga. I'm not touching What-If scenario,even though Nobunaga the Farmer was hilarious.


:hmmm:

So you sayin' this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JitDlO-7l80

Works with this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAMXutn4grA

...Yeah, I'm having a bit of a hard time believing that the guy whi is basiically the Darth Vader of Warriors, becomes a generic semi-evil Jesus metapho...actually you know what :uh: , I take it back. It works perfectly. Matter of fact, the way Samurai Warriors games went after the first one remind me way too much of the prequel trilogy of Star Wars. You are right. Carry on.

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SRS
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Just a comment on the Nobunaga thing: he was easily one of my favorite character portrayals in SW2 and SW3, being a ruthless visionary leader able to see the grand picture of Japan that few could, but SW4 does this very odd "above human" portrayal, where it feels like he's just disconnected from the world around him.

As for Sanadamaru stuff:
- I really like older Hidetada, his face resembles Ieyasu, and the outfit helps too
- Calling it now that Muramatsu is a non-battle NPC, even her description seems to fit this
- If Muramatsu is non-battle, then maybe there could be one more character add coming, but that's just an optimistic hope. It's more likely this is all the characters.
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The Outsider
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So Hidetada is using the generic 'Sword' moveset?

His appearance is also very generic but I prefer the aesthetic compared to thar chunky one from before. If Hidetada can have two appearances then surely his Dad can!
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Manjiimortal
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SRS
Wed Oct 5, 2016 10:47 pm
Just a comment on the Nobunaga thing: he was easily one of my favorite character portrayals in SW2 and SW3, being a ruthless visionary leader able to see the grand picture of Japan that few could, but SW4 does this very odd "above human" portrayal, where it feels like he's just disconnected from the world around him.

As for Sanadamaru stuff:
- I really like older Hidetada, his face resembles Ieyasu, and the outfit helps too
- Calling it now that Muramatsu is a non-battle NPC, even her description seems to fit this
- If Muramatsu is non-battle, then maybe there could be one more character add coming, but that's just an optimistic hope. It's more likely this is all the characters.
What does her description says? And Katsuyori and Hidetada's by the way.
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bluefiend
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AntonKutovoi
Wed Oct 5, 2016 8:54 pm
But it DID work in SW3, that's the thing. He still was memorable as anti-hero and probably had the most personality of the entire cast. Problem was (and it's still there) with Mitsuhide's personality. And then SW4 happened and Nobunaga turned into "Oh, betray me, please, oh I so want to be betrayed, oh yes, baby".
And then Chronicles 3 happened and I got confused: first he had a personality similart to SW3-era games (his post-Okehazama dialogue with Ieyasu about killing escaping Imagawa's soldiers was great), then suddenly turned into SW4 Nobunaga, then historical events started kicking in, with order to kill Kanbei's child, which would fit pre-SW4 Nobunaga, but not SW4 Nobunaga. I'm not touching What-If scenario,even though Nobunaga the Farmer was hilarious.
Your right! Nobunaga's SW3 portrayal DID work! except for the part where it didn't....like at all.

Here you have a guy who's always talking about the world moving forward, even if it goes on without him, and in SW4 he's basically begging people to betray him as you said, let's address these two first.

1.) Ok, here's the thing about SW3 Nobunaga...who the hell thinks like that?! How can you relate to this guy's contrived and unnecessarily complex world views? That's right, you can't, I mean dam, even the Joker and Lex Luthor have somewhat grounded and relatable world views, but SW3 Nobunaga's makes absolutely no sense and isn't something any normal human can relate too. Because it's not relatable nor does it make sense, it causes every other character in the game to suffer as none of them can ever have a legitimate reason for opposing him as Nobunaga himself really isn't all that bad a guy. For example you can't blame Mitsuhide wanting to betray him as not making sense on Mitsuhide, as it's something Mitsuhide HAS to do regardless of his character due to history, as such it's the job of the writers to give Nobunaga and Mitsuhide personalities that would logically cause them to reach this point. However if Nobunaga is a respectable person Mitsuhide's betrayal is made significantly less reasonable by default. Remember how everyone laughed about how horrible Mitsuhide's betrayal in this game was because Motochika had to talk him into it? yeah, good guy Nobunaga is pretty much the reason for that.

2.) as for SW4 Nobunaga, once again, while he's eccentric he is still a pretty respectable guy and as such suffers from the same problems as SW3 Nobunaga, except this time around Nobunaga shows us another problem with him being a good guy: The story can't have any actual villians.

Hisahide Matsunaga was supposed to be the SW series new villain, but Hisahide's core problem is this: he has no power. You can't have a villain without them having some kind of power. He can't be threatening and thus turns into a joke. As a result few people actually enjoyed his SW4 portrayal because everything he did, all his schemes essentially came out to nothing. Meanwhile Nobunaga is their as the most powerful warlord in the game and is constantly laughing Hisahide off as pathetic whilst also taking out the Azai, Asakura, and Imagawa, which is actually quite ironic as all of this would be great set up for a villain character.

What both of these games do is rob us of what could be an incredibly interesting villain in Nobunaga, while providing no supplement for him(because there's literally no one else in the period that can take this role), and makes Nobunaga himself into an entirely unrelatable "good guy" who just happens to be eccentric.

Moving on to Mitsuhide, the effect of good guy Nobunaga(as a result of his massive power and presence) on this character has been profoundly disastrous, he went from a guy in SW1 who reasonably hated Nobunaga because of his methods and ideology which largely clashed with his own(which were relatable and understandable) which eventually boiled over into a rebellion as Mitsuhide simply couldn't stomach working for a guy like that. Into his SW2-4 depictions where he betrays Nobunaga for the silliest of reasons, of which SW4 was by far the worst; he goes from defending Nobunaga in a cutscene at Nagashino to being disgusted by him in the same battle for...killing the enemy. Mitsuhide in SW4 is literally disgusted by Nobunaga for wiping on his enemy at Nagashino of all things. He's not disgusted by him refusing to allow an enemy to surrender, not by him frying monks, nor slaughtering peasants that are trying to escape chaos, but for killing enemies that are also trying to kill him...like what?

Another character to look at is Nagamasa, just look at the hilarious reason he betrayed Nobunaga in SW4. He does it because he wants to surpass Nobunaga? really? does anyone anywhere think like that? Is that something people do? do we just all of a sudden one day just start beating up our older siblings in order to "surpass" them?

And as mentioned again this also has an adverse effect on everyone that fights Nobunaga. As Kenshin, Shingen, and Mori have any real reason to oppose the guy, they're fighting a battle against them because his army is there, yeah sure, but thematically and morally? they have no beefs with each other, sure they're fighting but it isn't personal for any of them and thus the conflicts feel empty.

You know what though? Funnily enough all of these issues could easily be solved if the Ikko-Ikki were brought back into the equation, Nobunaga's slaughtering of the Ikko-Ikki affected all of these clans, but of course, we can't have that because then Nobunaga would look bad and actually give all these guys a reason to want to stop him! can't have that!

Also, good guy Nobunaga makes Magoichi look like an idiot for hating him. I fought for the Oda then fought against them and they actually fought back and wiped out my village?! Nobunaga must die for retaliating against my betrayal/attack!(that SW2 Magoichi story was terrible with this).

And don't bother suggesting having anyone else as a villain. It doesn't work because Nobunaga steamrolls them too easily(they can't be threatening).

That said, for as evil as SW1 Nobunaga was, even he wasn't muahhaha type evil guy. He was just a rule by force type with an ends justify the means world view who just happened to enjoy a good bit of what he did.

For example this exchange shows in SW1 shows how Nobunaga and Shingen are different as leaders as well as perfectly summarizes why they can't get along and are fighting as well as why Mitsuhide and Nobunaga can't work together for too long: starting at 1:10 and goes on until 2:10

Actually now that I think about it, I really hope Hidetada doesn't completely lose his evil streak. I hated how irredeemably evil he was in the anime up until his "I don't like fighting" reveal, but I don't want him to be all good either.



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Makörë
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I think we are going waaaay off-topic here...
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Ixbran
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Makörë
Thu Oct 6, 2016 1:10 am
I think we are going waaaay off-topic here...
I agree

instead we should talk about how ADORABLE Muramatsu is~

Posted Image
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I mean just look at her! Precious cinnamon roll too good for this world, too pure <3

I know shes likely just going to get the Naginata, following the others trend of getting the CAW weapons, but really I'd love to see her with the Cup and Ball moveset Oichi used to have. It'd fit her perfectly <3

Having her be the more lighthearted and fun loving sibling would really help to contrast her younger, more serious, brothers.
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bluefiend
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omg yes please! the Sanada needs someone that's not a serious mcserious all the time!

Also, dam. That is some fantastic character design she's got going on :hey:
Edited by bluefiend, Thu Oct 6, 2016 1:44 am.
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Lazaroth
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wodash
Wed Oct 5, 2016 5:01 pm
i like fat Hidetada better, this just makes him looks so detached from Ieyasu you'd wonder if it's actually Ieyasu who is in this game, maybe it's just Jirosaburo and the real handsome Ieyasu is dead long ago :rolleyes:

also he looks like an ungodly mashup between Nagamasa design and Takatora's color scheme :wacko:
Indeed, He look's more like a young Ieyasu than Hidetada, WTF ? I can't understand koei's design departament, how can someone have a character pretty much defined from an anime and game and scratch it and make something plain out of it ?! Why don't a shot on the feet instead ?

I'll buy the game for sure, but damn, that's just lame, plain lame...
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Incorrigible King
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I'm happy that Hidetada is becoming more prominent (slow and steady which is quite fitting). Though his drastic makeover really is off-putting. Also very happy about Katsuyori. ^_^
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garnix
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I do not think she'll get the Naginata.
She looks definitely less generic than the two other newcomers.
And I actually doubt it will fit to her design.
I think she will use some kind of magic.
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Artorias
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next kagetora uesugi??
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WarHawk
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If she does not get Naginata then somebody else gets. Hideyori or Matabei or Morichika or... Kennyo) oh ok, never mind just wishful thinking. I just do not see her with Naginata. Something magical, yes.
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Ixbran
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garnix
Thu Oct 6, 2016 2:44 am
I do not think she'll get the Naginata.
She looks definitely less generic than the two other newcomers.
And I actually doubt it will fit to her design.
I think she will use some kind of magic.
Yeah, considering shes the only newcomer here with a completly unique design, chances are her weapon will be as well. Though, I dunno about her using magic. So far all the Sanada warriors are poll arm based so if she doesn't use the Naginata, I could see her using something else, but similar.

Was there anything that she was well known for in history? Writing, poetry, dancing? Maybe if we knew a bit about her historical self we could better gauge what her weapon might be.
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Zai Tong
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They should have made the girl older we don't need another hayakawa oichi gracia kunoichi not saying make her like no or Ginchiyo or Kai but like a mature loving yet firm woman have yet to actually see that

Might have to wait for matsu to see that

Like Kira Katakura soi pic is how I would want to see the older Sanada sister portrayed
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Raiko Z
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wodash
Wed Oct 5, 2016 5:46 pm
Raiko Z
Wed Oct 5, 2016 5:42 pm
Why isn't Nobuyuki wearing different costume for his old design?
that, my friend, is called being consistent, and faithful

he totally learns it from fellow kindred spirits Musashi, Kojiro, and Goemon, who never changed their clothes for TEN FUKING YEARS
Such compassion is priceless.

Pre-order confirmed..

NOT

----

Man, that Sanada older sister really got the Chunhua syndrome.
Edited by Raiko Z, Thu Oct 6, 2016 4:22 am.
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Maya
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Why do people think that should be all characters? Muramatsu and Katsuyori hardly play a role in the Taiga drama.

We have seen pretty much nothing except characters who appear at the beginning.

What about the Siege itself? What about establishing a proper and non fictional connection between Yukimura and the Toyotomi like the Taiga does?
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bluefiend
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Your right! they still have to add Otsu Ono and Akihime!
Edited by bluefiend, Thu Oct 6, 2016 5:15 am.
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Makörë
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Guys, remember that now we have like 5 generic movesets, so I don't think they will obligatorily add one character per generic movesets. I will admit, however, that Sword/Spear/Naginata were the original three generics, so maybe they would add representants to just them, I just don't think its likely, due to the new ones. Muramatsu will certainly not use a Naginata, though, I mean, Katsuyori and Hidetada appeared with their weapons, and Muramatsu didn't. That likely means that, much like Chacha, Muramatsu won't have her weapon revealed at first (I believe Sasuke also did not have his weapon in one of his first images), so maybe hers will come later.

Also, its very unlikely that she will be a cutscene-only character, Koei doesn't have enough storytelling, nor does Muramatsu has any really big role to play to be worth making an unique character just for cutscenes. Also, before anyone says that she doesn't "look like she is a fighter", well, neither did Nö or Okuni on their debut, Oichi looks less and less like a fighter with each installment and CAW has a lot of non-fighter costumes available, so, no, that doesn't mean anything either.

EDIT: Also, I must remind people to pay attention that this cute little girl is the ELDER sister of Nobuyuki and Yukimura. Koei and their age logic.
Edited by Makörë, Thu Oct 6, 2016 5:29 am.
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Last_Stallion
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Ixbran
Thu Oct 6, 2016 3:24 am
Was there anything that she was well known for in history? Writing, poetry, dancing? Maybe if we knew a bit about her historical self we could better gauge what her weapon might be.
She was known for writing and receiving letters, so a scroll or some kind of paper based weapon would make sense.
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