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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:20 am (5,237 Views) | |
| Amakusa | Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:30 am Post #76 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Kiyomasa didn't get punished by the Tokugawa... he died. As one of the peoples that was actively mediating between the Toyotomi and Tokugawa his death was one of the signs that Toyotomi was on death's door. |
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| Kuroda Kanbei | Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:13 am Post #77 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Its interesting that the Tokugaga were wary of the Kato and Fukishima clans and eventually eliminated them while acting far more generous to those other two Toyotomi big shots that joined them. The Kuroda was rewarded pretty heavily after Sekigahara and got to have one of the richest provinces in the land while Takatora also quickly entered Ieyasu's inner circle. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:05 pm Post #78 |
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General
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Sorry my confusion, but how Kuroda and Takatora are big names for the Toyotomi clan, more than Masanori and Kyomasa? Hideyoshi never trusted Kanbei, right? In addition his son (Nagamasa Kuroda) served the Tokugawa clan and killed Sakon Shima, so it makes sense that Ieyasu would give generous rewards. Takatora, at least in SW, seemed uncomfortable in serving Hideyoshi and seemed to do everything to not serve him indirectly. He already thought that Ieyasu could be the successor to Hideyoshi before he died. And when Hideyoshi died, he is literally acting as a personal guardian for Ieyasu. When Nobuyuki, Ina and Tadakatsu threatened to oppose Ieyasu for him to spare Yukimura, it was Takatora who was reprimanding them for it. Later, when Kyomasa insisted on supporting Hideyori in front of Ieyasu, it was Takatora who did it again. And he also helped kill Yoshitsugu, which really was a big name for the Toyotomi clan. In fact, all of Takatora's contribution to the Toyotomi clan was when Ieyasu also did exactly the same thing, so I do not think he would be paranoid because Takatora served Hideyoshi. With this rigid anti-Toyotomi criteria, he would only rely on Hayakawa, Gracia, Kai (before the Osaka Campaign) and Kotaro (before the Osaka Campaign). Because they are the only ones who did not contribute to the Toyotomi clan. Especially Kotaro, he only appeared again in Osaka Campaign and was only for Kai and cause chaos, it is not as if added on anything. I think Gracia could have fought for the Toyotomi clan, but I do not even remember when she is selectable when it's possible to play by the Toyotomi clan, so it does not count. I hope I'm not being rude, but Kanbei (who actually started with the Oda clan and maybe did not even join Hideyoshi because he likes him or something) and certainly Takatora are not the best examples to be defined as officers of the Toyotomi clan . Edited by Lion of Sagami, Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:07 pm.
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| Kiheiji | Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:29 pm Post #79 |
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Miracle Violence
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He didn't say Kanbei and Takatora were considered more of big shots than Kiyomasa and Masanori lol. It's merely about who you liked more. I think it's natural for Ieyasu to not really give a hoot about the latter two given that they were basically jocks who were out of work because the war ended. Takatora was a good political adviser and a master of castle-building. Edited by Kiheiji, Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:31 pm.
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| Kuroda Kanbei | Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:25 pm Post #80 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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I never said Kanbei and Takatora were bigger then Kiyomasa and Masanori. What I did was place them in the same group as central Toyotomi retainers with a long history of service who defected to the Tokugawa after Hideyoshi was gone. If you view them like this it gets noteworthy when two get conspired against and lose all their lands while the other two clans prosper. And Kanbei and Takatora are definitely solid examples of Toyotomi retainers. I think you underestimate Kanbei's ties to the Toyotomi especially. Almost every moment in Kanbei's career had been under Hideyoshi's command even when he was still with the Oda clan. He served under Hideyoshi during the war against the Mori, supported Hideyoshi in taking over the Oda realm and seems to have been given prominent roles in the conquest of Shikoku and Kyushu. Kanbei got a pretty decent reward out of this all. He hardly had the biggest or richest province but that he was able to field two armies and be successful on both Sekigahara and his own Kyushu campaign suggesting he was a very powerful man. In Korea Kanbei was even made the chief adviser of Hideaki. This didn't go particularly well for Kanbei but that he was even given the job implied his seniority in the regime. There is also a letter in which Hideyoshi claims he was as close to Kanbei as with his own brother. Now this may have been flattery but Hideyoshi choosing to flatter Kanbei like this suggest the Kuroda were in very good graces with Hideyoshi. I'm not sure how much stake we should put in the rumor Hideyoshi distrusted or even feared Kanbei. It may just as well be Kuroda propaganda to hype up their biggest name or to justify their betrayal. I never seen anything to suggest Hideyoshi ever acted with this in mind. Their relation went downhill but Hideaki's performance in Korea seems a better explanation then any fear of Kanbei, a cripple owning just one province on Kyushu. Kanbei starting with the Oda doesn't mean a whole lot. He was mostly under the command of Hideyoshi during that time and the Toyotomi were internal successors to the Oda rather than external conquerors. Provided you didn't throw your lot in with Katsuie then the switch from Oda to Toyotomi should have been rather seamless. Plus with how Nobunaga tried to kill Kanbei and his son I doubt Hideyoshi ever feared Kanbei getting nostalgic for their old boss. I don't believe the Kuroda killing Sakon mattered very much either. With Sakon I get the impression he was hyped up merely because of the position he held at Sekigahara rather then because he was particularly skilled or held in high esteem of his peers. I doubt Ieyasu even knew who he was. As for Takatora, its worth remembering that his bitterness to Hideyoshi are a Koei invention made to emphasis his early years with the Azai. Its true that Takatora joined Ieyasu earlier then most but he was still with the Toyotomi for decades and there's nothing to suggest he was all that resentful about it. Edited by Kuroda Kanbei, Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:33 pm.
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| Katatonia | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:30 pm Post #81 |
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destroy.erase.improve
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Just chiming in to ask that we please don't talk about Masanori Fukushima getting cut again. I'd be pretty sad. Ok, carry on, friends All this being said, how much earlier do you think they'll backtrack into older eras? IIRC, SW3 and Chronicles 1 featured some early Hojo battles, and we saw Itsukushima with the Mouri clan. I'm looking forward to more trouble in the capital as well. If any Hosokawa gets in, I'd rather it be Fujitaka. If any more Sekigahara adds gets in, I'd like to see Nagamasa Kuroda and Hideaki Kobayakawa |
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| Wild Lion | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:35 pm Post #82 |
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Legend
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I'd like to see Musashi get some love with his own story, even though he came after the Sengoku period really Might be cool to have his own Castle-style game mode of fighting increasingly harder enemies with bosses representative of his most famous real duels, then beating it unlocks him for normal gameplay in Free Mode Edited by Wild Lion, Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:36 pm.
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| Lion of Sagami | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:43 pm Post #83 |
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General
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Sorry, but I do not understand what you mean by defect for Tokugawa clan against the Toyotomi clan. I thought the Tokugawa clan were subordinates of the Toyotomi clan in the same way as Mori or Tachibana. Takatora basically split up with the Tokugawa, it was not as if the Tokugawa was a fully separate clan. Or sorry, maybe I do not understand the Tokugawa relationship with Toyotomi.
What did Takatora do to the Toyotomi clan that Ieyasu, Ina, Tadakatsu, Naomasa, Naotora and Hanzo did not? He only had two fights by the Toyotomi clan, the other two had participation of the Tokugawa clan and after, only for Tokugawa. Unless I'm remembering wrong.
Well, I do not know much about it and do not even remember any of it in SW4. What I said was one of the few I know about him, but maybe you're right. On the other hand, I do not even remember all this is in the game. It's almost like saying that Ieyasu cares about Hayakawa because of the Imagawa relationship, except that this is never shown.
In a historical sense, it may be strange that he has given traitorous special to Takatora, but what matters in SW is that he proves to be much more bitter for the Toyotomi clan than he must have had historically, so this has explanation in the context of the game. And again, in SW, Takatora does not show anything special to the Toyotomi that the Tokugawa themselves did to them. Sorry if I look rude or I'm missing something.
I think the Hojo need to have the battle of Kawagoe again because I do not like how they seem to be too passive. And Ujiyasu must have the last battle in the Siege of Odawara by the Takeda clan. Then he naturally dies by historical accuracy. And Masayuki and Katsuyori get some guaranteed screen time in SW5. Edited by Lion of Sagami, Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:47 pm.
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| AntonKutovoi | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:48 pm Post #84 |
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Legend
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1517 is the earliest time period I can see for the SW series to go, and even that is highly unlikely, unless we’ll have a Mōri spinoff game. Most realistic is 1540. |
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| Kuroda Kanbei | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:55 pm Post #85 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Well, the main thing about Ieyasu is that he isn't a direct vassal to Hideyoshi. He's a lord in his own right with his own vassals, and his own powerbase. He agrees to serve Hideyoshi as a subordinate ally and acknowledged him as ruler of the land but the Tokugawa are still their own faction. As are the Mori, Uesugi and Date. The Toyotomi government wasn't a centralized regime but a coalition where every agreed(at sword point) that Hideyoshi was on top. Ina, Tadakatsu and the Ii's are Ieyasu's vassals and not Hideyoshi's. If they fight for Hideyoshi its because their lord tells them to do so. Kanbei, Takatora as well as Mitsunari and Kiyomasa are what Ina and Tadakatsu are to Ieyasu. They are Hideyoshi's personal retainers and they directly serve the Toyotomi family as commanders in the Toyotomi army. When they get their own domains its a reward for their service to the Toyotomi in this capacity. Samurai warriors 4 does cheat a little bit by making Takatora a Tokugawa retainer a lot sooner and skipping over his service to Hideyoshi but historically as well as in Chronicles and I think SW4 2 he's a Toyotomi retainer. The main thing being that Ieyasu and the Mori for instance were already powerful clans before Hideyoshi and have their own powerbase while the Toyotomi guys start out as Hideyoshi's officers and owe their land entirely to the favor of Hideyoshi. Edited by Kuroda Kanbei, Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:56 pm.
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| Lion of Sagami | Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:57 pm Post #86 |
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General
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Well, the popularity of Motonari may be a factor though it is not a top 10. The only problem is that we would have a lot of NPCs who were only there to fight Motonari. And the other two older ones are Matsunaga and Ujiyasu and I do not find any relevant fighting they had around 1530. At most, I think there may be a battle of 1545 which is that of Kawagoe that the Hojo and Uesugi fought.
Sorry, I actually had some doubt I rewacth the events of Takatora in SW4 II. But after Nagamasa's death, he actually followed Tsuna Nobuzumi who was Nobunaga's nephew. After the Battle of Nagashino, it is Ieyasu who goes there and encourages a little about loyalty, something he never does with the loyal subordinates of the Toyotomi clan. Later, when he was retainer of Hidenaga Toytomi, he seems annoyed when Kyomasa thinks he wants to follow Hideyoshi and acts as if Hidenaga was not related to Hideyoshi. When he is really serving Hideyoshi, in the conquest of Kyushu, he seems impressed by Hideyoshi's numerical strengths ... Then he begins to speak as Ieyasu seems to be a better option if Hideyoshi died. Sorry, but when Naomasa or Ina acted with such apathy with Ieyasu? Or received praise from Hideyoshi? Even if Hideyoshi trusts him, it does not look like Takatora to see himself as a retainer of him. Edited by Lion of Sagami, Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:18 pm.
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| Kuroda Kanbei | Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:35 pm Post #87 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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But he is. He follows a Toyotomi family member, fights in their battles and follows their orders. He may act like a little bitch about it but he's still their retainer. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:02 pm Post #88 |
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General
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Sorry, I think I'm getting to clarify my point. I never said that he was not a retainer of Toyotomi, but that he never really considered himself one. I understood that you said that it is ironic Ieyasu to favor Takatora, even though he was a great retainer of Hideyoshi. The problem is that he is only considered a great Toyotomi reteianer because he is a talented warrior, not because he glorified everything Hideyoshi does (like Mitsunari, Kyomasa and Masanori). But constant complaints, hesitation in considering himself loyal to Hideyoshi and preference for Ieyasu before even Hideyoshi died, served with a huge flag of possible traitor. Ieyasu was intelligent in realizing this and welcomed him very early. The same happened to Nobuyuki who did not even socialize with the Toyotomi clan, but did the same things as Yukimura. Edited by Lion of Sagami, Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:10 pm.
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| saner | Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:16 am Post #89 |
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Supreme Warrior-Scholar
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well it seems don't have to worry about Japanese dubs not being there. well who knows, SW4 was Japanese only, which was fitting, though the english dub fans raged about it. they could include both language dubs in SW5. yea SW is niche compared to DW, though perhaps they'll aim higher with it, especially with DW9's open world definitely getting a positive reception from open minded fans and newcomers, SW5 open world can be amazing! you know to this day, SW4 still has the greatest graphics in a musou, great facial animations too. with new engine on PS4, Samurai Warriors 5 could look even greater!! |
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| garnix | Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:43 am Post #90 |
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Legend
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SW5 is going to introduce the clone issue to the Samurai Warriors Franchise! Joking, it will not happen. They will reuse DW9 engine, and put a SW skin on it. So they will have all the budget necessary into movesets. |
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| Fūma | Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:21 am Post #91 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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On the previous page there was talk about possible cuts. I'm really surprised Kojiro was barely mentioned there because his sole existence depends on Musashi. Basically you can have Musashi without Kojiro but you really can't have Kojiro without Musashi. I'm not saying anyone will cut get anymore but I just found that interesting. About individual stories, I actually wouldn't mind if some characters had them in the next game. Characters who serve multiple clans and have scattered appearances through the story could use a personal story so that we get a better idea of their entire role in the game. I think Munenori is a good example of this even though I'm not a big fan of him. I also think individual stories would be a good way to tailor some stages better for certain characters. For instance, if Hanzo had a personal story, his battles could be a lot different than regular battles... assassination, castle missions, ninja paths, eavesdropping etc. There were some good concepts of those in the original SW, but they sadly more or less disappeared in subsequent games. It's rather problematic that the stages feel more generalized these days and do not give much room for more individualized missions. Perhaps there could be the usual clan stories for at least most of the same clans we had in SW4, but then we had, say, a dozen individual stories for characters who could really use those and of course a few for the super popular ones Gracia... or actually, Gracia could use a personal story anyway. |
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| Artorias | Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:43 pm Post #92 |
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Ghost Girls Squad
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If SW5 is going focusing Sekigahara arc. I would like to see Hideaki Kobayakawa and Nagamasa Kuroda Being added in SW5. |
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| Last_Stallion | Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:00 pm Post #93 |
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Special Task Force A-01
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Yeah, those facial animations during camp conversations were really top notch. |
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| Kuroda Kanbei | Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:08 pm Post #94 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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I think the focus may go to earlier periods due to the latest games focusing on the Sekigahara conflict so much. |
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| Masayuki Sanada | Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:25 pm Post #95 |
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Elite Soldier
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Well i would like some focus on the imagawa so i can get Taigen Sessai and add the lords for Kyushu Shimazu Yoshihisa,Otomo Sorin and Ryuzoji Takanobu |
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| Fūma | Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:23 pm Post #96 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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Well, SW4 did have pretty detailed and vibrant environment for a Musou game. The models also looked pretty good except for some of the awkward animations like mentioned above. As for the focus of SW5, first let's take a look what has been the focus of the previous games. - SW1: Nobunaga's reign, heavy emphasis on 1560-1582 - SW2: Sekigahara campaign and the post-Honnouji era - SW3: Covering the entire timeline from 1545 to 1615, new early battles - SW4: Clans and regions, providing the big picture - SW SoS: The complete story of the Sanada clan (I guess, haven't played it) I'd like them to make a second iteration of the clans story system that makes the campaigns more independent this time... in SW4, most of the stories were really just a set-up for Legend of A Land United & Sanada, I don't want to see that again. And in addition have individual stories for select characters that struggle to find their place in the clan campaign. If there is a particular area in Japan they should focus, I'd say the west is ideal. There's a lot of potential at Kyushu in particular. Same goes for Chugoku region. |
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| Zillion | Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:02 am Post #97 |
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Soldier
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It'd be a boring way to go about it perhaps but just building on what SW4 was doing could work out alright. Most of the clan stories really did not have enough characters to do much with the setup. Or maybe just divide the story up into general eras/periods with events within each of those, I dunno. |
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| Cao Hong 14 | Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:18 am Post #98 |
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The one and only
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I think with SW5 Koei really needs to try something new. DW gets all the flack between the two because it's always the one trying to do new and cool things, which don't always pan out the way they should, while SW stays more safe and doesn't ever really change much, which makes the games more polished in general. However, I'm tired of playing with the same movesets that have been around since the beginning of the series. Godspeed was great but they have to do more than that to satisfy change. I'd like to see some form of an overhaul. It doesn't necessarily have to do whatever DW does, like it never did weapon switch and also doesn't necessarily have to go open world. Just some kind of major change. As for new characters, I'd still like to see a decent number. Nothing too crazy but I think about 10 or so would be ideal, which is about what almost every base game has done up till now. 60 is much smaller than DW and SW has done a much better job at implementing and balancing characters so I'm sure they could handle 10 more. |
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| Fūma | Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:35 am Post #99 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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I actually think SW has generally changed more over the years. For instance, if you look at the movesets between SW1 & SW4, they've changed quite drastically: now we have four different moveset structures instead of one, there are special attacks (R1), spirit attack cancels, hyper attacks, musou finishers, ultimate musou finishers etc. And more stuff probably within four main games. It's true that for majority of the characters, the core of the moveset is still too similar to what it has been since the beginning, so I do understand what you're saying. In fact, I'd gladly welcome at least a soft-revamp for all the movesets. I don't exactly know what DW9 did the movesets but it seems like there is considerable change this time. The overall tone of the series has also gradually changed, with SW1 being rather gloomy and dark and SW4 being a lot more vibrant and anime-ish in terms of character designs, presentation and atmosphere. I don't know if I'm in the minority here but I'd like the series return more to its roots and even beyond that in this... something close, but not identical, to Nioh would be ideal in my book. As for the stories, well we did have individual stories for the first three main games, with SW4 finally having a rather different story system which I think worked out pretty well. They essentially divided the story to two eras/periods and shifted the focus from individual characters to clans: - Part 1: Oda & all the short 3-4 stage long stories (1555-1582) - Part 2: A Land United + Sanada (1582-1615) I always felt that while the story in SW4 did shaft some characters, they managed to provide a good overall presentation of the entire era... the big picture. The structure may seem a bit confusing, but it was one logical way to do it. |
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| Cao Hong 14 | Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:04 pm Post #100 |
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The one and only
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Well to me all those different moves introduced is akin to the adding of new musous, arial musous, EX attacks, etc. I don't classify those as innovative. The exception being hyper attacks. Yeah I do agree about the tone being changed, which is cool. DW4, which came out around the same time as SW1 is also the darkest entry in the DW series. I, however, don't really wanna see a return to that so much. I'm very ok with the story taking much more gritty and dark tones but as far as the atmosphere of the game goes, I would prefer it stays away from every stage feeling to be stuck in perpetual nightfall, etc. I didn't mind the SW4 style of storytelling in theory, but I thought it was extremely poorly executed in-game. So many battles previously in the series were omitted and characters with no true clan identity were shoe-horned into stories they didn't belong as well as smaller clans being given adds they may have otherwise not needed just yet. I think instead of clan storylines just having one long timeline style story mode could be best, in which all the battles are presented, just as time moves along. |
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