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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:20 am (5,236 Views) | |
| AntonKutovoi | Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:17 pm Post #101 |
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Legend
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That really won't work. Instead of the solid narrative you'll have one huge mess with all battles thrown in together. Yes, all battles will be in and all characters will fight, but story won't be present. You can't jump all over the place across Japan and have a story that make any possible hint of sense. |
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| Fūma | Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:44 pm Post #102 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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@Cao Hong 14: Hmm... what battles were omitted in SW4? If I recall right they kept most, if not all major battles featured in previous games while adding a lot of brand new ones for clans that were previously somewhat ignored, such as all regional battles in Legend of Kyushu, Shikoku, Chugoku, Tohoku. And also a few new ones in Azai, Uesugi, Takeda & Hojo. So I personally feel it's quite the opposite what you said about the battles. SW4 actually did justice in terms of covering enough battles for every major clan, whereas the previous games omitted a lot of regional battles that were crucial in term of building up the clan's future (such as Shimazu clan's rise in Kyushu). SW4-II on the other hand omitted a terrible amount of important battles from the game and basically ignored half of the important stuff that happened in the pre-Honnouji era. A lot of scenarios were also repeated multiple times in the stories whereas virtually every scenario had to be played only once in SW4. |
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| Lu Xun001 | Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:19 pm Post #103 |
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He's a Pirate
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to be fair, SW4-II was about making the individual characters shine, rather than give a comprehensive look through the era to be fair it should have been a 20 bucks dlc
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| Cao Hong 14 | Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:58 pm Post #104 |
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The one and only
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That’s true that the one long story using a timeline would make things a little less cohesive, but there really isn’t a good way of presenting the story in SW besides individual stories that will do it justice. The clans aren’t as clear cut as the kingdoms in DW and many characters never really had much of a clan or stuck to a certain faction. As far as battles go in SW4, there were a bunch of Oda battles removed and even more that were present but not playable on both sides such as Yamazaki, Komaki-Nagakute, Shizugatake, etc. There were certainly some battles added for the minor clans that we’d never seen before though, so it was a trade off. Not one that was an overall improvement in my opinion. |
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| AntonKutovoi | Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:14 pm Post #105 |
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Legend
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I prefer clan stories, but there shluld be more of them, even if they will be pretty short ones. Like Akechi story, for example (from Honnoji till Yamazaki). And why is it a problem if character served a few clans? He can be playable in few stories in that case. And it should be the same way for DW as well, but that doesn't belong in this topic. Also, SW4 tried really hard not to repeat any battles in the stories. I think they went too far with it - some battles should be repeated across the stories, as long as we won't reach the levels of SW2 Odawara. But to be completed honest, instead of SW5 I'd prefer them to make games like Spirit of Sanada - one huge story about one clan per game. However, such games won't sell, so it's out of question. |
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| Maya | Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:33 pm Post #106 |
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General
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I hope that they don't make a game like Spirit again. It was a lackluster Sanada game and not a good/complete Sanada story. If they make a clan game than they should do it correctly and go more in depth. SW5 should definitely have a mixture of clan stories and character stories (for characters that need it). Some characters should also be cut until the opportunity for a storyline in a future game might appear. Would anyone else like side games like Sugoroku in SW2 again? I remember that it was fun to play it in groups. Edited by Maya, Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:49 pm.
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| AntonKutovoi | Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:29 am Post #107 |
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Legend
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Eh. The only noticable problem in SoS was the fact that Chacha wasn't Hideyoshi's concubine, otherwise it was great. Hideyori can wait for his chance later, Akihime isn't needed, amd adding Osaka defenders would be an overkill for this game - they are already unique, however. |
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| Maya | Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:34 am Post #108 |
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General
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Not eveyone must like Spirit. I didn't like it and didn't think that it was great since I do think that Chacha's role was bad, Akihime was necessary since Yukimura's historical biography is hard to explain without her and defenders were needed since otherwise the focus of the game is Yukimura's youth (see the additions of Muramatsu and Katsuyori). Edited by Maya, Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 am.
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| AntonKutovoi | Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:06 am Post #109 |
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Legend
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The only thing Akihime adds is another reason for Yukimura to join Mitsunari and Toyotomi. But he already has one. What’s wrong with Yukimura joining Mitsunari and Toytomi because of friendship? Not to mention that all Akihime would do as a character, if added, is stand behind Yukimura’s back, saying “Yukimura-sama”. Osaka defenders are in game, they have a semi-unique design and a role in the story, even though a minor one. Making them playable in this game would be a little too much - they will require more unique designs, new movesets and voice actors. Oh, and they would also require a proper introduction in story.
Edited by AntonKutovoi, Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:21 am.
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| Artorias | Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:41 am Post #110 |
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Ghost Girls Squad
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I really want Matabei Goto being added in SW5. his weapon will be a Shield like Captain America. They should need older Chacha aka Lady Yodo. I shouldn't expect Her VA can play older woman because her VA is too young. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:55 pm Post #111 |
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I prefer individual stories because all the characters have the same amount of screen time and they do not get dependent on others. But will not some have "repeated" endings (ending with the same battle and history)? For example Yukimura X Nobuyuki, Toyoshisa X Naomasa and Kai X Hayakawa. If they are more historically accurate, as in SoS, then Yukimura and Nobuyuki may have indepedent endings. Naomasa could simply have more focus on him serving Ieyasu or developing friendship with Tadakatsu, while Toyohisa may get stuck in the very world where he is a great rival of Naomasa. The friendship of Kai and Hayakawa can be almost cut off. Hayakawa does not necessarily need more time, but all the time she had in SW4 could be used to develop her relationship with the Tokugawa instead of her promise to Kai, who does not even care about her. I hope they included Tazu so that Naotora can have her own story instead of just being Naotora's mother. It would be interesting if Hayakawa was a "stand in" for one of her brothers who was held hostage by Imagawa along with Ieyasu and could serve as a link with the Tokugawa clan. Not a helper who could very well be a slave who was forced to be there. Can we at least once see a gentle and peaceful character be rewarded and welcomed? If they are going to put Hayakawa on a "family" theme and someone who fought for Tokugawa, then I want it to be well done. And the same goes for Muneshige, although he has reasons explained in real history, this is not well developed in the game. He almost ended up as an officer trophy for Ieyasu in the end. |
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| Maya | Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:33 pm Post #112 |
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Some characters definitely do need individual stories otherwise you won't see much of their personality. Ina for example needs a storyline. Chacha might as well since than they might perhaps be able to portray ChachaxHideyoshi and include Hideyori. Nou for example was in the long run quiet irrelevant for the Oda historically after the Saito were gone since she didn't have children and since Kitsuno/Yoshino pretty surely had a higher position despite being a concubine by giving birth to Nobunaga's most well known children. However since Kitsuno didn't have a long life Nou was chosen in SW due to rumors/legends about her (being a spy, being related to Mitsuhide etc.). If she doesn't have a storyline they can't dive into these rumors. Edited by Maya, Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:38 pm.
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| AntonKutovoi | Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:48 pm Post #113 |
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Legend
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Female characters in general will benefit from individual stories. As I said before, I personally prefer clan stories, but since you can't give everyone equal screen time in them (obviously), some characters are getting shafted to the background. Individual stories might fix that. |
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| Fūma | Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:20 pm Post #114 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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Yeah, the problem with splitting the story entirely to clans is that you can't really see the full story of a lot of characters. It's difficult to map their entire story during the game if they have a prominent role in several clans. An individual story works better in this case for some characters. However, I'd still say a good amount of characters can have a decent story with clan stories alone. As for the battles, well they were still there. I do think they should've had let us play Yamazaki, Shizugatake and Komaki-Nagakute from the opposite perspectives (perhaps as gaiden stages in Oda & Tokugawa stories). But my point was that SW4 did a very good job at including all important and even the less known battles from the era... there were like a dozen of new regional battles introduced that are crucial for the rise of several clans. All games prior that had a lot of important battles missing, even SW3. I disagree with this. They made it work excellently so that you never play the same battle from the same perspective more than once. Tokugawa's Osaka Campaign was the sole exception but even that features a completely different set of characters for both versions. I don't see any benefit of being forced to repeat the same scenario in the stories. This is one of the biggest downsides of individual stories IMO and it became apparent again when SW4-II went the individual story route even with as little as 13 stories. I like to think SW4's story structure as a history book where each Legend is a chapter with a varying amount of pages and you never have to read the same page twice. At worst there is some repetition in the narration here and there, but it's understandable, given that a lot of the chapters take place in parallel with each other. SW4 aimed to give a comprehensive and overall view of the entire era and that approach worked out quite well in my opinion. It was about time Koei/Omega tried something else than individual stories anyway as we had had those three main games in a row already. Yes, it wasn't perfect seeing how some characters got neglected, but every story format has its flaws, such as individual stories having repetition in stages or a hypothetical one huge linear story constantly bouncing across the entire country between the stages. Yes please! That is one of my favorite side modes in any Warriors games. I really wish they would sort of remaster it in SW5 with all characters being available and having a possibility to leave an interim save. |
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| The Outsider | Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:27 am Post #115 |
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The Demon's Rival
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In my opinion, Clan stories just don't work in 'Samurai Warriors' as characters storylines intertwine with each other a lot of the time which is what makes quite a lot of them diverse. I think this series overall is a lot better when you concentrate on one character at a time, 'Spirit of Sanada' had some of Koei's best story telling to date despite Chacha being used a bit too fictional and that was down to really going into the character's motivations and drive. |
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| DynastyKit | Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:44 am Post #116 |
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The Prettiest Genius
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I definitely hope Samurai Warriors' main games do not go back to individual stories ever. I think SW4's clan stories were perfect. I did skip SoS because I can't stand the Sanada, but SW4-II and SW3 were absolutely painful to playthrough with individual stories. So much Sekigahara, so much Odawara... I really don't see why clan stories can't work as well as individual stories, either. No matter what, specific characters will get their moments to shine. It's not like any specific clan has like 20 characters in it at one time (at least I don't think the Oda or Western Army has 20 characters yet ).
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| Uesugi Kenshin | Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:55 am Post #117 |
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Mewshuji
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SW will inevitably need to return to individual stories, as I can't see them adding only to clans that need it going forward. Sooner or later we'll have the unifier clans being as big as any of the Three Kingdoms, and you just can't tell a story that includes everyone on that level. And ironically, in SW, it's the more important characters who are less popular, so if you cut anyone who would make sense to cut, there'd be hell to pay. For now they can subdivide. Oda can be "Nobunaga and his close retainers"; "Akechi"; "Shibata"; and "Hashiba". Toyotomi can be "Hideyoshi and his close retainers"; "Western Army", something like that. |
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| Myst | Sat Nov 25, 2017 1:02 am Post #118 |
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Han's Unifier
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A lot of characters become more obviously useless to the narrative in clan stories. The mainstream, overexposed characters just get more attention. It is time for the series to return to glory with Individual Story, and treat every character fairly. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:03 am Post #119 |
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Although it seems that I am one of the few that matters with the characters that necessarily need fair treatment like Hayakawa, Muneshige or even Nobuyuki. In fact, even Toyotomi, Oda and Tokugawa really are not treated in a "fair" way. Nene, Masanori, Kyomasa, Toshiie and Magoichi are only in SW4 to support Hideyoshi and himself only serves to look like a leader. In fact, Magoichi literally disappeared to nowhere when Hideyoshi died. Ranmaru and Nohime became mere companions of Nobunaga. Tadakatsu and Ina are that for Ieyasu and Nobuyuki. Naomasa and Naotora were introduced almost at the same time as they were able to have their own story. No wonder Hayakawa gets "lost" at the end of the game. Historically, she has not served as a supporting character for anyone other than her father. Well, maybe I could do with Ieyasu and Naotora. Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:05 am.
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| Fūma | Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:15 pm Post #120 |
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The Dragon Has Returned
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Does anyone here legit want to play through close to 70 individual stories where most stages are just repeated over and over again? DW5 was already such a chore with 48 stories that I couldn't even finish the game when it was just the same battles repeated for a dozen of times. And it's not like every character even needs that 5-stages long story. Someone like Ranmaru does nothing but die at Honnouji defending Nobunaga so there's no need to give him the same length of story campaign as his master. The fact that every story would be equally long also creates a skewed image of their role in the era which goes against history. And really, we have way too many characters now to give everyone a story anyway, it'll be probably close to 70 in SW5. And if they didn't give everyone their own story campaign, then how would every character be treated fairly? Individual stories for every character is out of scope, budget and time at this point. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:25 pm Post #121 |
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I think they could explore Ranmaru wanting to avenge his father against the Azai-Asakura clan. Even because they already included in the Battle of Odani. Making a character older than he was in real history is one that Omega already does. Ranmarum dying with 18 or 30 in Honnoji does not change anything in the overall game. And in fact, Samurai Warriors will always distort the characters in relation to the actual story. If they will include such characters as Chacha who probably never had to do any physical activity in her entire life to the point of totally replacing Hideyori, then Ranmaru may have had a longer life. Plus they are no longer making individual stories for the more than 80 characters in DW9? If it is a success, then it will be even easier on SW5 with just over 60. I do not care if some have had four while others have more than five battles. The fair treatment would be more the quality and quantity of events than the battles themselves. I mean, free mode can allow endless battles for each character. Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:38 pm.
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| LordTerrantos | Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:01 pm Post #122 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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@Lion of Sagami: Keep in mind Lion. that the characters stories in DW9 will differ in length. and will end at the moment they die. Going from my knowledge Dian Wei started serving Cao Cao in the year 189 and died in 197. so his story would officially end at Wancheng where he was killed. if we do get individual stories. its possible we may get a similiar thing with what DW9 is doing. where characters stories will last as long as they lived. and while i have no clue when Ranmaru began officially serving Nobunaga, his death date is in the year 1582. and i know he died at age 14 or somewhere around there. so even so Ranmaru's story is still extremely limited. now the question does make one wonder how they are going to handle Zuo Ci, who has many myths and legends about him. where he supposedly lived to be 300 and is a mystic. Depending on how Zuo Ci is handled in DW9 may also tell us how they will do individual stories for the likes of Goemon Ishikawa, Okuni, Kojiro Sasaki, and Musashi Miyamoto. who are mostly known either because of legends or myths. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:28 pm Post #123 |
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In fact, he died at the age of seventeen. And sorry, when I talked about extending his life, I meant that he could be born early. If he was five years older, he could be in the Battle of Odani at thirteen, which I think was the age where they could already fight. In some cases like Zuo Ci and Okuni, maybe they will be exceptions that will get what if. And I do not think everyone will have stories until their death because Nobuyuki died in 1658, forty years after the Osaka Campaign. And I'm not sure if he fought again. And that means we will no longer have Hayakawa, Kotaro and Hanzo alive in the Osaka Campaign, right? Edited by Lion of Sagami, Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:29 pm.
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| LordTerrantos | Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:54 pm Post #124 |
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Emperor's Retainer
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Yeah i knew what you meant, i apologize if i didnt clarify that. the only problem i see if they were to make him be born early is the fact he is the youngest son of Yoshinari Mori and Younger Brother of Nagayoshi Mori. Nagayoshi being one of the few who was in Nobunaga's Inner circle. and if i recall was born in the year 1558 and Ranmaru was born in 1565. Of course if they could find someway to make Ranmaru fight earlier i wouldn't be against it, but if they start using Spirit of Sanada and DW9 as a base. we should start expecting the characters to become avaliable the moment they historically fought. thus why Ina was not seen in SoS until her first battle. (which would of been when Yukimura/Nobuyuki are in thier teen models and Masayuki his Old Model). yeah in cases such as Zuo Ci and Okuni i expect there will be exceptions. to the rule where they will have to make a What-If for. Nobuyuki is also one of the few we may not have to worry about his story officially ending until probably the 2nd Ueda Battle. where his last battle was at, since he did not participate in the battle of Osaka. depending whether or not they go full on historical with the death dates and birth dates in SW5. then no i do not think we will even see Hayakawa at Osaka. Hanzo is a different story however. as technically speaking Hanzo and Kotaro are both characters who are suposed to represent all the Hanzo Hattoris and all the Kotaro Fumas. thus why we will never see Hanzo's son. because Hanzo is supposed to be both Hanzo the 2nd and Hanzo the Third. |
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| Lion of Sagami | Sat Nov 25, 2017 8:20 pm Post #125 |
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For now it is not possible to say, but they still had some inaccuracies.
I still think it's strangers they omitted her in any battle related to Sekigahara, but then put her in the Osaka Campaign. I have no problem if she finishes her story in Sekigahara or Ueda, since in the Osaka Campaign she's there literally just to antagonize Kai (she does more in her point of view, but that's it.).
I do not know much about Hanzo, but I saw that all the Fuma were eliminated before the Osaka Campaign in 1603. But yes, they could use this to justify their having a longer life. |
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