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Archlich's Tumblr for 3 Kingdoms
Topic Started: Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:24 pm (5,748 Views)
ChrisX
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I'm sure you've heard of this Tumblr detailing 3 Kingdoms history. Site here:

https://the-archlich.tumblr.com

Now, I'm not here to judge on those who actually believed in what this site said, but I'll have to say that the man got talent in writing an entertaining content.

However, upon further research and discussions, I've eventually noticed that the site isn't a good source for history materials, namely because the creator himself is rather biased. Bias makes a good entertainment source at times, but it's not for good historical studies. This is an intensive scholar website that decries the validity of his claims:

http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4030&p=613072&hilit=Archlich#p613072

Thanks to bias, he missed out a lot and made up stuffs against Shu people, taking advantage of lack of proper history department and made up high praises on Cao Wei and Jin, while attempting to whitewash their faults.

I'm not saying you should stop being entertained with him, but if you want to say things about historical accuracy, his site shouldn't be used as a legit source.

I'm sorry if I am a bit slow or ending up preaching to the choir, but I'd like to inform you guys in here. I mean, I was a fool to almost believing him...
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Yuki-Onna
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Bias isn't the biggest issue with his site. Everybody has a bias, and his becomes pretty apparent after a few minutes. Even the best historians, with Ph.D.s in the field of history, have biases.

There are some other much bigger problems with his site:

-The lack of source citation. This is far and away the biggest problem for using the site as some kind of historical gospel. If you don't know where he got his sources, there is no way to check the veracity of the information. It's hard to know if some of it is bogus or not.

-In reality, the cherrypicking of his sources. If he were to bring up a source but then state his opinion that the source should not be trusted, that is one thing. He doesn't do that. He just chooses which sources to draw from and which sources to disregard without telling you what he's doing or where he's getting his information. This ties in with the first point about how he doesn't cite his sources to begin with.
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ChrisX
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By default, Shu was in a rather hard state thanks to the lack of proper history department, and with the changing values over time (where Cao Cao looks less of a villain in modern times, just highly competent, whereas Liu Bei's many failures are looked down even if traditional Chinese highly prioritized his virtue), it was easy to make Shu a black sheep to look cool and deviate from what ROTK gave.

And Archlich's site was the perfect site for the anti-Shu bunch to gather and feel justified. Which continued to grow further and further, despite the obvious problems in his site. If it continued, what was supposed to be a rather biased and not-really-good source would be accepted as truth, since sometimes internet can be really good in doing so.
Edited by ChrisX, Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:48 pm.
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Dongzhou
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I do think archlich goes towards a more aggressive bias then, say, De Crespigny's pro-Wu but as long as one knows the extent of the bias. I do think archlich might be wise to put in his character analysis section a "in some of these, I claim Zhuge Liang wrote the histories. This is incorrect"

I do find his work entertaining, he does cover some era's that aren't usually covered. If it helps get people into places like scholars or this section to discuss history then great, I would rather have people getting involved and then we can work on any issues from archlich (again that Zhuge Liang histories one is an issue I have come across a few times).
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ChrisX
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I'll admit that for entertainment purposes, he may be doing his job well enough. Nay, probably he did good for entertainment purposes. However, the bias might not be visible to some people and may cause people to think he's telling the truth thanks to his 'citing sources' (actually, choosing whichever sources fit his vision and tastes, disregarding the ones that don't).

Quote:
 
"I do think archlich might be wise to put in his character analysis section a "in some of these, I claim Zhuge Liang wrote the histories. This is incorrect""


Uhm, I don't think you could convince him to do so on his own site. It's his site, he writes what he wants. If he's not concerned with actual history and letting his bias take over, it is his decision.
Edited by ChrisX, Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:03 pm.
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Dongzhou
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Sure, people I have come across aren't that aware of the bias or don't realize the extent of it. Then they could pointed to where things are wrong when they come to 3kingdom places as I and others have done before

I said it might be wise. Not that I'm pushing him to do so
Edited by Dongzhou, Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:07 pm.
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ChrisX
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Apologies, I didn't mean 'pushing him'. But I just thought that even he's pointed out or suggested as such, he wouldn't listen.
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Lillyflower 999
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ChrisX
Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:09 pm
Apologies, I didn't mean 'pushing him'. But I just thought that even he's pointed out or suggested as such, he wouldn't listen.
I kinda use this site even heard about the bias.
It's hard to find out more about the history for free or have more about accurate source without someone being bias or misleading to those who don't know about the history.
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Dongzhou
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I find this history and the scholars place (note, I am a mod there) Chris have been reliable places for askin questions about the era while there are translated texts (kongming has sgz as does xuesangou while the ZZTJ for the entire era has been translated)
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Lillyflower 999
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Dongzhou
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:40 pm
I find this history and the scholars place (note, I am a mod there) Chris have been reliable places for askin questions about the era while there are translated texts (kongming has sgz as does xuesangou while the ZZTJ for the entire era has been translated)
Sorry, I not sure what you meant by that?
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Warrior of Light
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Archlich's dialogue often makes no sense especially when he says Liu Bei was an awful person despite Liu Bei not only being an upstanding guy but Cao Cao being the truly awful person.
Archlich's dialogue often makes no sense especially when he says Liu Bei was an awful person despite Liu Bei not only being an upstanding guy but Cao Cao being the truly awful person.
Edited by Warrior of Light, Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:17 am.
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Yuki-Onna
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I don't agree with that. Liu Bei did plenty of shitty things. Cao Cao, while he also did shitty things, did not differ greatly from other warlords of the era in this regard and did some things which genuinely improved the lives of his soldiers and people (particularly with regard to agriculture). archlich whitewashes over a lot of the massacres and disregards a lot of nuance, however, while simultaneously never citing his sources.
Edited by Yuki-Onna, Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am.
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ChrisX
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Rance
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am
I don't agree with that. Liu Bei did plenty of shitty things. Cao Cao, while he also did shitty things, did not differ greatly from other warlords of the era in this regard and did some things which genuinely improved the lives of his soldiers and people (particularly with regard to agriculture). archlich whitewashes over a lot of the massacres and disregards a lot of nuance, however, while simultaneously never citing his sources.
It's ironic that many Anti-Shu (Archlich included) screamed of whitewashing on Liu Bei done by ROTK & LGZ or Koei & DW, but they were okay when Cao Cao was the one whitewashed (Granted, Koei kind of did the whitewashing, but if they do, they whitewash almost everyone)

I think the 'safest' way to say that is to consider Archlich being someone who wished he made his own ROTK, except Cao Wei (or just the people he liked) shall be the one whitewashed, not Liu Bei and Shu Han (or just the people he felt overpraised).

It's quite an alternate take. But once again, not a good historical source despite citing some sources.
Edited by ChrisX, Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:31 am.
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Dongzhou
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Lillyflower 999
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 pm
Dongzhou
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:40 pm
I find this history and the scholars place (note, I am a mod there) Chris have been reliable places for askin questions about the era while there are translated texts (kongming has sgz as does xuesangou while the ZZTJ for the entire era has been translated)
Sorry, I not sure what you meant by that?
I'm saying there are plenty texts of the era translated, for free, into English and there are and there are long established places (for those that don't have the time for texts/prefer a different route to learning) for people to ask questions about the era.
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Lillyflower 999
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Dongzhou
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:05 pm
Lillyflower 999
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:38 pm
Dongzhou
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:40 pm
I find this history and the scholars place (note, I am a mod there) Chris have been reliable places for askin questions about the era while there are translated texts (kongming has sgz as does xuesangou while the ZZTJ for the entire era has been translated)
Sorry, I not sure what you meant by that?
I'm saying there are plenty texts of the era translated, for free, into English and there are and there are long established places (for those that don't have the time for texts/prefer a different route to learning) for people to ask questions about the era.
Okay, thanks. I wasn't to sure what meant by that.

I am looking at kongming net.
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Warrior of Light
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Rance
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am
I don't agree with that. Liu Bei did plenty of shitty things. Cao Cao, while he also did shitty things, did not differ greatly from other warlords of the era in this regard and did some things which genuinely improved the lives of his soldiers and people (particularly with regard to agriculture). archlich whitewashes over a lot of the massacres and disregards a lot of nuance, however, while simultaneously never citing his sources.
Like what? Compared to Cao Cao massacring civilians and killing the emperor's family what did Liu Bei do that was worse than Cao Cao's actions. Both caused the death of a son but Liu Bei regretted his decision while Cao Cao didn't give a darn about his son.
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Dongzhou
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Cao Cao was haunted by Ang's death (leaving aside it destroyed his marriage) so not fair to say he didn't care
Edited by Dongzhou, Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:21 pm.
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Warrior of Light
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Dongzhou
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm
Cao Cao was haunted by Ang's death (leaving aside it destroyed his marriage) so not fair to say he didn't care
So why didn't he bury his son if he cared about him? He got him, Cao Anmin, and Dian Wei killed just because he couldn't take no for an answer.
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Yuki-Onna
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Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 pm
Rance
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am
I don't agree with that. Liu Bei did plenty of shitty things. Cao Cao, while he also did shitty things, did not differ greatly from other warlords of the era in this regard and did some things which genuinely improved the lives of his soldiers and people (particularly with regard to agriculture). archlich whitewashes over a lot of the massacres and disregards a lot of nuance, however, while simultaneously never citing his sources.
Like what? Compared to Cao Cao massacring civilians and killing the emperor's family what did Liu Bei do that was worse than Cao Cao's actions. Both caused the death of a son but Liu Bei regretted his decision while Cao Cao didn't give a darn about his son.
His troops looted and engaged in banditry at times to survive. Historically, he was the person who beat an official nearly to death rather than Zhang Fei. It's in his SGZ biography:

http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/liubei.php

"There was an imperial decree which ordered those minor officials in the regions who obtained their position from military achievement were to be dismissed. Liu Bei suspected that he was going to be targetted. Du You went to Anxi and was supposed to summon Liu Bei. Liu Bei knew the protocol so hearing that Du You was in one of the residences, he requested to see him but Du You, giving the excuse that he was sick, refused the request. Liu Bei was angry because he would have to return authority. He sent his officials to Du You’s residence, went in and said: ‘I have received secret orders from his Honour to arrest Du You’. He dragged Du You out and tied him to a tree, hanging his official seal around his neck. He then beat him a hundred times and threatened to kill him. Du You begged for mercy and so he was subsequently released."

He betrayed practically everybody he served. He abandoned his family numerous times.
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Dongzhou
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Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:42 pm
Dongzhou
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm
Cao Cao was haunted by Ang's death (leaving aside it destroyed his marriage) so not fair to say he didn't care
So why didn't he bury his son if he cared about him? He got him, Cao Anmin, and Dian Wei killed just because he couldn't take no for an answer.
He got them killed becuase he got careless and silly, he started rewarding Zhang Xiu's officers and so on.

Who says Ang wasn't buried? We do have the fiefdom's, Ang's line being continued and Cao Cao's haunted feelings and regrets on the matter.
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JMSA
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Rance
Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:39 pm
-The lack of source citation. This is far and away the biggest problem for using the site as some kind of historical gospel. If you don't know where he got his sources, there is no way to check the veracity of the information. It's hard to know if some of it is bogus or not.

-In reality, the cherrypicking of his sources. If he were to bring up a source but then state his opinion that the source should not be trusted, that is one thing. He doesn't do that. He just chooses which sources to draw from and which sources to disregard without telling you what he's doing or where he's getting his information. This ties in with the first point about how he doesn't cite his sources to begin with.
I have to agree with Rance. I understand the discussion that has been going on here, but I would also like to propose a different perspective: at which point do you believe that everything you read on the internet is equal to fact? We are talking about a tumblr account (not anything with some sort of proper prestige) that is run by an individual or a group of individuals that probably have no idea what they are talking about. I might be unfair, they can also probably be the most qualified people in the world, but the fact that they lack of source citation, they mix opinion with historical facts, etc. etc. makes the information that they are trying to transmit, very questionable at best.

It's a no subject. The followers of that account, that you can say are the victims here if you will, embody a general problem that I see on most people: formulating opinions and then try to research facts that back those opinions, when of course, it should be the other way around.
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Warrior of Light
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Rance
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:56 pm
Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:39 pm
Rance
Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:58 am
I don't agree with that. Liu Bei did plenty of shitty things. Cao Cao, while he also did shitty things, did not differ greatly from other warlords of the era in this regard and did some things which genuinely improved the lives of his soldiers and people (particularly with regard to agriculture). archlich whitewashes over a lot of the massacres and disregards a lot of nuance, however, while simultaneously never citing his sources.
Like what? Compared to Cao Cao massacring civilians and killing the emperor's family what did Liu Bei do that was worse than Cao Cao's actions. Both caused the death of a son but Liu Bei regretted his decision while Cao Cao didn't give a darn about his son.
His troops looted and engaged in banditry at times to survive. Historically, he was the person who beat an official nearly to death rather than Zhang Fei. It's in his SGZ biography:

http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/liubei.php

"There was an imperial decree which ordered those minor officials in the regions who obtained their position from military achievement were to be dismissed. Liu Bei suspected that he was going to be targetted. Du You went to Anxi and was supposed to summon Liu Bei. Liu Bei knew the protocol so hearing that Du You was in one of the residences, he requested to see him but Du You, giving the excuse that he was sick, refused the request. Liu Bei was angry because he would have to return authority. He sent his officials to Du You’s residence, went in and said: ‘I have received secret orders from his Honour to arrest Du You’. He dragged Du You out and tied him to a tree, hanging his official seal around his neck. He then beat him a hundred times and threatened to kill him. Du You begged for mercy and so he was subsequently released."

He betrayed practically everybody he served. He abandoned his family numerous times.
Yeah and how is beating the official worse than any of Cao Cao's actions? It was wrong no doubt but even the best people do bad things look at David.
Also the only ones he betrayed were Cao Cao and Liu Zhang the former being a tyrant who wanted to take over the court and with Liu Zhang it was to stand up to Cao Cao and Liu Bei still spared him and a lot of his officers. Yeah he left his family behind but do you think it would be better to take them with him and all of them get killed or leave them behind but bring his enemy's attention away from them. And people have taken from a cities treasury to survive and feed troops. Also the only "banditry" Liu Bei participated in was going after Cao Cao's forces in Runan to help Yuan Shao. He wasn't massacring people on a whim like Cao Cao.
Dongzhou
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:28 pm
Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:42 pm
Dongzhou
Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:16 pm
Cao Cao was haunted by Ang's death (leaving aside it destroyed his marriage) so not fair to say he didn't care
So why didn't he bury his son if he cared about him? He got him, Cao Anmin, and Dian Wei killed just because he couldn't take no for an answer.
He got them killed becuase he got careless and silly, he started rewarding Zhang Xiu's officers and so on.

Who says Ang wasn't buried? We do have the fiefdom's, Ang's line being continued and Cao Cao's haunted feelings and regrets on the matter.
No he got them killed because of him trying to forcibly marry Zhang Xiu's aunt. Zhang Xiu stated he was against it so Cao Cao tried to have him killed and Xiu had his army attack Cao Cao in retaliation. Regrets that didn't involve going to bury his son and nephew and only burying Dian Wei. And not only that but divorcing his wife because he didn't want to admit his fault in his son's death.
Edited by Warrior of Light, Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:33 pm.
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ChrisX
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Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:28 pm
Yeah and how is beating the official worse than any of Cao Cao's actions? It was wrong no doubt but even the best people do bad things look at David.
Also the only ones he betrayed were Cao Cao and Liu Zhang the former being a tyrant who wanted to take over the court and with Liu Zhang it was to stand up to Cao Cao and Liu Bei still spared him and a lot of his officers. Yeah he left his family behind but do you think it would be better to take them with him and all of them get killed or leave them behind but bring his enemy's attention away from them. And people have taken from a cities treasury to survive and feed troops. Also the only "banditry" Liu Bei participated in was going after Cao Cao's forces in Runan to help Yuan Shao. He wasn't massacring people on a whim like Cao Cao.
Like I said I think it stemmed with some people not liking the whitewashing since Romance of the Three Kingdoms. As in, yes, Liu Bei and Cao Cao did shitty things, but one of them was treated properly as a villain the novel (Cao Cao) and the other one was whitewashed as a hero (Liu Bei). To some, like probably that Archlich, it could be something that pissed them off so much.

Judging from Archlich's comments that he will give praise to Shu officers that was actually good or decent, I tend to believe that his problem stems from not agreeing which ones ROTK decided to whitewash. Most of the people he bashed seemed to be the ones that got hyped quite a bit by ROTK.
Edited by ChrisX, Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:34 am.
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Warrior of Light
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ChrisX
Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:34 am
Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:28 pm
Yeah and how is beating the official worse than any of Cao Cao's actions? It was wrong no doubt but even the best people do bad things look at David.
Also the only ones he betrayed were Cao Cao and Liu Zhang the former being a tyrant who wanted to take over the court and with Liu Zhang it was to stand up to Cao Cao and Liu Bei still spared him and a lot of his officers. Yeah he left his family behind but do you think it would be better to take them with him and all of them get killed or leave them behind but bring his enemy's attention away from them. And people have taken from a cities treasury to survive and feed troops. Also the only "banditry" Liu Bei participated in was going after Cao Cao's forces in Runan to help Yuan Shao. He wasn't massacring people on a whim like Cao Cao.
Like I said I think it stemmed with some people not liking the whitewashing since Romance of the Three Kingdoms. As in, yes, Liu Bei and Cao Cao did shitty things, but one of them was treated properly as a villain the novel (Cao Cao) and the other one was whitewashed as a hero (Liu Bei). To some, like probably that Archlich, it could be something that pissed them off so much.

Judging from Archlich's comments that he will give praise to Shu officers that was actually good or decent, I tend to believe that his problem stems from not agreeing which ones ROTK decided to whitewash. Most of the people he bashed seemed to be the ones that got hyped quite a bit by ROTK.
And I don't like whitewashing but does that mean I am going to attack the people who were whitewashed because of the whitewashed. Liu Bei was still a far better person than Cao Cao every was.
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Yuki-Onna
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Quote:
 
Yeah and how is beating the official worse than any of Cao Cao's actions?


You're moving the goalposts now. You originally said:

Quote:
 
Archlich's dialogue often makes no sense especially when he says Liu Bei was an awful person despite Liu Bei not only being an upstanding guy but Cao Cao being the truly awful person.


I don't agree that Liu Bei was an upstanding guy. He was a warlord. Warlords don't tend to be upstanding guys. I personally agree with you that Cao Cao did some things which were worse than Liu Bei, but that wasn't the point I originally was disagreeing with.

Quote:
 
Also the only ones he betrayed were Cao Cao and Liu Zhang the former being a tyrant who wanted to take over the court and with Liu Zhang it was to stand up to Cao Cao and Liu Bei still spared him and a lot of his officers. Yeah he left his family behind but do you think it would be better to take them with him and all of them get killed or leave them behind but bring his enemy's attention away from them. And people have taken from a cities treasury to survive and feed troops. Also the only "banditry" Liu Bei participated in was going after Cao Cao's forces in Runan to help Yuan Shao.


According to Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's Biographical Dictionary, in his biography of Liu Ba he writes:

"Liu Bei had given his soldiers permission to plunder Chengdu, so the official treasury was stripped bare and there was no money for the needs of the army. Liu Ba solved the financial crisis by issuing zhibo money, an artificial and over-valued currency, and controlling the resulting inflation by strict price controls through official markets."

De Crespigny cites his source as SGZ Shu 9.980-82.

Liu Bei betrayed plenty of other people. He basically took advantage of Sun Quan and broke deals with him, he left Yuan Shao and his successors to their fate and he backstabbed Lu Bu as well, though Lu Bu backstabbed him too.
ChrisX
Fri Mar 23, 2018 1:34 am
Warrior of Light
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:28 pm
Yeah and how is beating the official worse than any of Cao Cao's actions? It was wrong no doubt but even the best people do bad things look at David.
Also the only ones he betrayed were Cao Cao and Liu Zhang the former being a tyrant who wanted to take over the court and with Liu Zhang it was to stand up to Cao Cao and Liu Bei still spared him and a lot of his officers. Yeah he left his family behind but do you think it would be better to take them with him and all of them get killed or leave them behind but bring his enemy's attention away from them. And people have taken from a cities treasury to survive and feed troops. Also the only "banditry" Liu Bei participated in was going after Cao Cao's forces in Runan to help Yuan Shao. He wasn't massacring people on a whim like Cao Cao.
Like I said I think it stemmed with some people not liking the whitewashing since Romance of the Three Kingdoms. As in, yes, Liu Bei and Cao Cao did shitty things, but one of them was treated properly as a villain the novel (Cao Cao) and the other one was whitewashed as a hero (Liu Bei). To some, like probably that Archlich, it could be something that pissed them off so much.

Judging from Archlich's comments that he will give praise to Shu officers that was actually good or decent, I tend to believe that his problem stems from not agreeing which ones ROTK decided to whitewash. Most of the people he bashed seemed to be the ones that got hyped quite a bit by ROTK.
Part of the problem is that the lore of the novel has become so entangled with people's perception of the period that even some professional historians have difficulty disentangling the two. The novel is a work of fiction. It has been contended as "70% fact, 30% fiction" in the past. That is nonsense. It's a flat out fiction that's "based on a true story." Relying on the novel for any kind of guide to the period is damaging.

When you add in popular media representations of the novel and/or the period, it becomes even more difficult to separate history from fiction.

When judging the characters of the period, you have to completely disassociate yourself from how they are depicted in the novel. In reality, they were all warlords fighting in a brutal and bloody civil war. There weren't heroes or villains, at least not among the generals fighting the battles.
Edited by Yuki-Onna, Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:38 am.
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