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This is getting a Little Crazy.; we need to take a look at somethings.
Topic Started: Sep 28 2011, 08:28 PM (1,139 Views)
Kari_Shadowfox
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DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT O BE ACCUSING, HATING, BASHING or otherwise putting other people down by posting this. I only want everyone to know what issues have come up, and my possible suggestions to perhaps mend them.


Hey everyone! :) many of you know me or perhaps know of me. I have numerous friends who play on this server and now others; this is part of what I want to address here.

I have been incapable of playing for a long while. Be that as it may, when I did play, and even now, I am still getting word from many of my friends that "SCoD isn't very fun anymore" or "You're the only reason I keep playing on this server, you're the only person I still have fun with"

This is a serious problem. I love that you love me guys, but something has to be seriously wrong with the overall player experience for so many different people to be telling me the same things.

From what I've been told (and seen myself on occasion) the number one problems/complaints are:

1-Feelings of favoritism toward certain characters or organizations
2-Feeling no sense of accomplishment in any of the events, or deliberately being cut out of events due to other circumstances.
3-Too many events end without any kind of resolution, or the bad guys always "get away" / win.
4 -Feelings of exclusion to people with lvl 30 mains from events -either they aren't events the character would participate in, or they are barred from it because of lvl caps.

Some people just aren't having fun, but they love the server and the setting. They don't really want to leave. They want things to get better. So I decided I'd be their advocate, because I hate that many of my friends aren't having fun in what used to be their favorite place.


so, to elaborate:

Point 1: many events are tailored toward those who have faction ties, or have a lot of personal power (Maelfina and Hildmor being examples- not accusing anyone, but pointing out what people are FEELING is happening.) I understand that factions are a huge part of the setting, and these events are to encourage players to join, but even so, a large part of our player base DON'T prescribe to Factions, and don't ever wish to. I think some simple events that involve "accidental plane-walking to some esoteric place and the quest to get back home" would appeal greatly, to all ranges of lvls, and would encourage random wide range lvl groups. Adventuring parties sometimes do have people who are WAAAAY more experienced paired with some who know next to nothing, and a few everywhere in between. It makes for an interesting dynamic, and encourages higher lvls to engage with lower levels.

Point 2: Many events are too much in the grey area for some folks, or the rewards to not properly compensate the risks that were undertaken. For example:

Mercenary so-and-so risks his entire soul for the good of the group, and it happens to work out! what do he and his party get? Essentially, the equivalent of a t-shirt.

No adventurer (or player) is going to appreciate this as a pattern for events. Once in a while, sure. But every event?? People start to feel like "What's the point in doing these things if I never see the fruits of labor?" We play this game to escape the unfairness of real-life. We want to see that good gets rewarded and bad gets punished once in a while. Having events that are ALWAYS "the bad guys are actually good guys and you all who think you are good aren't" is not only unoriginal and boring, but also makes people always feel as if they can't ever get a break or really and honestly win at something.

There have also been events where certain characters were pulled in by a DM for a specific goal, but then when they have their RP arch going for the plot-goal, it gets super-ceded by some other PC because it was more convenient for plot-progression, rather than "fun for all involved/ fun for the whole server."

Point 3: I mentioned this above, so I won't go too deep here: basically, while "grey" events are fun and appropriate, they also need to be spaced out by some clear cut "black and white" events, which can also be made setting appropriate. We need to balanced both so that EVERYONE is having fun. Isn't that the point of the server over anything else?

Point 4: I have a number of friends who prefer to only play one main character. This usually means they end up lvl 30, and then are pretty effectively cut off from participating in anything anymore, because they'll "take over" the event with their higher experienced character. Most who have characters like this DON'T want to do that. They want to have fun with everyone else, and feel like they contributed in something. While we need events with specific lvl ranges so the lowbies aren't left out, we also need some directed at the high-lvl players too. Sometimes, ESPECIALLY the higher lvls, because they can't fall back on "Well, I could always go hunt and gain my next lvl" like a lower lvl character can when things are slow.

My closing statement is just this:
To DM's: Please try to make events more server-wide/inclusive, or if not, to have a wider variety of events that are done so everyone can have a chance to do something they'd enjoy doing, not just plots you think are personally interesting or great. Sometimes a basic "This guy's bad, this one's good, help the good guy do what he's gotta do" is enough for people, even though it's typical DnD "slay the evil dragon" type of adventure.

To Players: Please, think of OTHERS when you are RPing, not just your character. You can be surprised how you can inadvertently start "good" Rp with someone, even if ICly your characters HATE each other. The trick is to focus on "let's all have fun" vs. "Let's all compete with each other for personal DM love"

Even if an action is slightly OOC for a character, it might be worth it to do it, just to produce some good old fashioned fun with one another. Finds ways to get involved with other people. Please. I really want everyone to be happy on this admittedly awesome server. We've been great before, we can get back to that again.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT O BE ACCUSING, HATING, BASHING or otherwise putting other people down by posting this. I only want everyone to know what issues have come up, and my possible suggestions to perhaps mend them so a greater amount of people are happy and satisfied.
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Styxwash
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I certainly agree on many of your points regarding player to player RP, but I don't see how thats the server or DM's fault. There will always be some people who are to lost in their own char or just not that great at interactive RP.

Your points about DM's and events, I entirely disagree. I myself do enjoy being rewarded at the end of an event, although I don't believe that waving one of a kind epics items or tons of gold and gems at people is a good way to encourage RP. Rather, it just attracts the selfish/greedy types who don't do much for interaction.

I've been playing the BG server for awhile and got very tired of the all action/no plot events they constantly run there. This server shines by having those grey events that have a deep plot, requring you to immerse and RP, rather then just killling things like you do otherwise while grinding or levelling.

Also I can't see how "grey" events, as you call them, exclude certain chars.. rather it could only open up for the many...

I can agree that it must be sad to be excluded from some events simply because your to high level, although it can be hard for DM's to create combat oriented events with big level gaps and what im hearing from you is that you want more of these combat oriented events, which seems abit contrary to me.
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Agony_Aunt
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Kari, thanks for sharing your concerns, although I disagree with some of what you are saying.

All i will say is that we discuss things frequently on the DM boards about our events, what works, what doesn't, what people enjoy, etc. Yes, we have in the past tried to focus a lot on faction based events although we are backing off on this a little, but factions are still quite core to the whole setting (which you say you like).

Anyway, the one thing i want to really say is: Duke - keep your response shorter than Kari's post please! :D
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Kari_Shadowfox
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My biggest point is more BALANCE. And I am not trying to make ANYONE feel like THEY are to blame or at fault.

I like my grey events, but I don't want them ALL grey, since that lessens their meaning. grey events are defined by black and white experiences too.

What I want is BALANCED reward systems, not OMG ALWAYS GIVE AMAZING/AWESOME CRAP.

Rewards need to fit the risks taken in an event, or it seems a bit lackluster and meaningless. This IS DnD - is IS an escape mechanism. Sometimes a clear reward for good work is needed. Not ALL the time, but definitely SOMETIMES.

And this is for SOME people who are feeling left out and that they aren't being heard, so I'm making sure something IS heard.


Quote:
 
Point 3 No Ending?:

Sometimes DM's need breaks, were only Human Kari. We dont have machine gears that keep us running 24/7 and imagination can only go so far before the brain dies out (believe me, running 4-5 seperate storylines can drain you VERY fast).
In any event that this might have applied to myself, I ALWAYS bring a conclusion to a story WHEN possible. I cant wait for people for my entire life and I am sorry but I wont spend my lifetime waiting anymore. Ive been very patient with a number of 'very' ingreatful people that demand more attention than they deserve.

Simple solution: You dont like it? Dont get involved. If a Dm involves you, ask not to be involved.


This is not exactly the point I was getting at. I fully understand the need for breaks- what I was making the statement about is a campaign that comes to a finish, but ends without closure for characters. Sometimes that bad guy gets away, and the characters never get a chance to face them again.

So I wanted to point out there is an outcry for a few more events with closure.

As for involvement, it was "you are invited to do this part, do you want to?" Yes, absolutely! *goes through with the Rp build up, about to really get going AND.... the main PC of the event completes the goal specifically geared to involving these OTHER characters* Those original characters are wondering "Well, why'd they ask if we wanted to be involved if they were going to shove us out of the story arch anyway?"

This was an issue of courtesy, and I wanted to emphasize that that sort of "for the sake of plot progression" cutting of side characters hurts those people who played them and went through all that work.


Quote:
 
Point 4 The Elite Against The Newcommer:

An end game character really already has everything and if they cant find a story to tell for themselves then that is truley dissapointing. What do you want, a hand me out saying "please tell me what to do next?" The answer is simple, do something that appeals to you within reason.
Were not your baby sitters and we dont owe you favours. Were not a service that provides events like tickets we do it to who we please when we please.
Again, DM's are only Human, and to assume they cater entirley to "your" needs is increadably selfish. We have lives, very big lives, some more important than others.



The Team might not always be there. They might not always be perfect but by god ive seen every last DM work his or her arse off for this server and it is worth every weight in gold.


My point is that DM's do what they do because they want to have fun with us characters, and to make this server the amazing place it is. I have untold amounts of respect to ALL our DMs. I am ONLY making suggestions for CONSIDERATION, and IMPROVEMENT OF FUN for EVERYONE.

with the way the whole "private army" rping was heavy discouraged by DM's, many players are uncertain how far we can go with creating our own ideas without getting DM approval before we do it.

Some lvl 30 events would be nice in order to create BALANCE between lowbie centered events and High lvl centered events.
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Mr_Otyugh
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Thought provoking. Thanks for sharing, though I admit that I have had similar thoughts every now and then. All in moderation, since some of those are fine every now and then, and I'm sure even you acknowledge it... but I concur many of them occur too often.
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Knightoftheradish
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I'm not sure how much of it I agree with, but I can only speak for my own experiences of course. Have your friends tried making their own stories and getting DM help to support those stories? I find DMs especially more willing to help get things together when there's promise of other players getting involved too.

Nobody has to shove each other out of the way, especially at the events I've been to in the last month. The rolling systems used keep level range in mind by basing it off attributes as often as possible, and combat is very infrequent. I think what people might mistake as shoving each other out of the way is a higher level character is likely to be more assertive in their opinions, because they know they aren't actually trying to bluff their way to a resolution, they can generally do what they say they can. I wouldn't take someone's assertive roleplay as oocly being squeezed out of the event, roleplay right back. It irks me when people get super quiet in events, say something every 20 minutes at best, and then complain that they weren't involved. If nobody said anything the events would never progress.

It's true what you say about factions... when I was totally disenfranchised from them I felt awkward about faction based events... but if you take the time to read up on them chances are you can actually find one that not only suits your character, but enhances your roleplay options ideologically. And I've been privy to events that have nothing to do with factions and yet still remain within Planescape as a setting. (Detached from Sigil is all).

I see random events around town fairly often too. They don't seem to have any level requirements, or involve any factions, or even lead to something epic. Just entertainment. Other times I know there's DMs willing to rp specific NPCs that would be around Sigil, not even as part of an event, but just to enhance the roleplay players are presently doing.

So, in short... I have to disagree with your friends on a personal level, but if they'd like some help/advice on how to get more involved I'd be happy to lend an ear. Have them send me a tell in game, or a PM here.
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Darkrob
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You make some good points but not everyone feels the same way, obviously. In regards to events... I find most "30's" are left out becuase if you do an event with 30th level chars/ lowbies mixed... the rest complain that everything is too hard and if you exclude the little guys to favour the 30's... then people complain they're being ignored. It's a fine line to include everyone.

As for loot... I'd rather get RP rewards to further the developement of my characters than items or gold. In all the time I've been here, in all the events I've been in... I haven't had a character recieve one gold coin... not one +1 item... hell I've spent way more in events than anything by paying those I've hired (PC wise) to help out... but I've had many who've had boosts in the RP area. Made more contacts, gained a little bit more fame, got more influence... that sorta thing. It's much more important to me that my characters gain RP rewards than material objects... I can get that just by grinding.

I find the best way to renew yourself is to simply step away for a month or so... breathe some air and check out some other games. The mod is always here to step back into :)
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LiquidDreamer
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I'm not sure how much of it I agree with, but I can only speak for my own experiences of course. Have your friends tried making their own stories and getting DM help to support those stories? I find DMs especially more willing to help get things together when there's promise of other players getting involved too.


That's what it's all about. I've been doing my events and i'm not going to try and convince a paladin to carry out an assassination or kidnapping hm. When i run a story line i look to see which chars are available that might be interested.

I try not run events for a specific person and i tend to ignore those that constantly bang me over the head for attention too and those that talk about the weather in the bar. But if i see anyone doing something, rping something they got going on the side like Mael bar, Hild cartel, Neli's merchantile business those guys are fair game :lol:

And let's not forget PCs urge to kill everything that is not allied to them.. hehe. Kind of hard to do something when they smash everything and never stop to say something like.. "Hey, it talked" or something.
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Ceremorph
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Quote:
 
Point 3: I mentioned this above, so I won't go too deep here: basically, while "grey" events are fun and appropriate, they also need to be spaced out by some clear cut "black and white" events, which can also be made setting appropriate. We need to balanced both so that EVERYONE is having fun. Isn't that the point of the server over anything else?

The one thing that makes Planescape stand out from other settings is its "Shades of Gray." In Toril, a demon pops out of a portal and it needs to be killed unless you're running an evil campaign. In Sigil, you have that possibility that a pit fiend might have plans that work in the favor of the Guvners, or a solar might have plans which promote his view of what is "good" but could be disastrous for the Sensates. It's having to make and live with those difficult decisions that allows us to have deeper RP and more "epic" events, and in Sigil even the paladins have to deal with shades of gray. If you don't believe me, ask Arwyl about being second-in-command to an insane and bloodthirsty tiefling, or Sarin about being commander of a faction whose secondary mission often seems to be beating the living snot out of Indeps.
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TheorumOfNeutrality
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I'm going to address you point by point, here.

1. Planescape is defined by the philosophical factions. That's part of the setting. The factions are everywhere, and have their fingers in everything. That's just the reality of Planescape. If you're character isn't in a certain faction, and there's a specific faction event going on, perhaps you should use RP to get into said event? There's nothing stopping you from doing so save DM ruling - and really, how rare is it for a DM to tell you that you aren't welcome? I certainly haven't ever heard it on any server I've visited.

As for spreading out levels in DM events, that just doesn't work for combat oriented events. It just doesn't. You can't spawn enemies with three different challenge levels at once.

In regards to favoritism, or whatever, I find that it's usually the people who expect RP that complain about it. SCoD is a player-driven server. If you want someone done with your character, ask about it. I've had some interesting personal interaction with DM's that have totally enriched a character, and I had to seek that RP out. Don't walk into a server expecting to the main character. It doesn't work. We are ALL supporting characters for the WORLD, not the other way around.

2. First of all, you should not be doing events for the awards, as a player. That totally defeats the point. If you're doing an event for xp, gold, and items then you should never have joined the event. Once again, it's about ROLEPLAY. If you're character doesn't like a reward, roleplay the situation out. Don't expect to be given whatever you want just because you did one event. If you REALLY want something unique, a DM would be far more willing to give it to you if you made it an RP situation.

3. Your definition of terms is very poor, here. What is a 'gray' event, and what is a 'black and white' event? If you mean events that are morally gray, and events that are black and white, then I would surmise that a person who approaches events from their own point of view and not their character has missed the point of an event. Any event or situation can be approached in a 'gray' way or a 'black and white' way. Do you kill the pit fiend, or do you deal with him for the sake of the law, to use Ceremorph's example?

Planescape as a setting has a single element that stands out from all others: each aspect of it is up for interpretation. Once again, it's not what you think. It's what your character thinks.

4. I'm not understanding what you want. You say up above that you want events tailored to EVERYONE, and then say you want events tailored to level ranges. Which is it?

Closing ideas:

Don't expect to be entertained. Do your own RP. Don't be lazy. It's one thing to have a preference (I hate giant events, for instance), it's another to be unreasonable and demanding (just because I hate giant events doesn't mean that I'll quit because there's a large number of them). Sometimes, it's best to just get over yourself and go along with the flow. DM's are volunteers who give up their free time to create a rich world full of characters for us, and while it's fair that we have a say, we suck all the fun out of the job when we demand and act like they have to bend to our wills.

I'll say this again, our characters support SCoD. Not the other way around.
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Neli
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Im going to have to blow a whistle too.

I want to start off by saying I don't play this server because I expect the DMs to entertain me, or do I want some sort of special treatment. With that being said, there are some observations that I've noticed a point or two that I agree with the OP about.

Neli's level 30, and I guess her company is a little faction of her own. This isn't solely for self-benefit; I try to encourage RP through it, and spread the fun around - especially for new players. With that being said, I get next to no DM attention. I got a player who's recently "signed on to work for the company" about a month or two ago whose tripled the amount of events they've participated in over my own; and starred in most of them. This number is not an exaggeration.


This suggests that there is a little bit of favoritism going on. I don't know if its for specific players or "Hate for lvl 30ers" but from my experience, the problem is salient.

I don't expect the DMs to drop everything and help me when I ask for something, and I certainly don't expect things to go my way every time. But I feel generally like I am pulling teeth when I have to make requests to three different DMs to replace my moveable stool for me, while others are getting regular attention and events. Again, this is not an exaggeration.


I want to point out there are one or two DMs that have gone out of their way to be very accommodating, but these DMs rarely participate in running events, or even show up as DMs - so my complaint in general stands.
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Archangel
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Make.....own......story.....

Sorry, me here, your friendly neighborhood sadist. Never been in an event, never really pay attention, and am quite happy. If I get an event, cool, if I don't also cool. I really like player-driven story to be honest.
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Ceremorph
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I think a lot of the issue with DMs and "favoritism" comes from a point of view. Firstly, looking at events, there really is a difference based on types of events. If I'm lurking aorund and decide to run a "one-shot" event, I'm most likely going to look for places that RP is going on, and then either drop some sort of happenning or an NPC into the situation to see where it goes. In this case, L1 or L30 doesn't matter... show RP and you're into it. On the other hand, for an actual "event", I'll admit I don't want L30s around. The reason for that is, taking my most recent large event, the Sensate Murders plotline as an example, I created three whole new areas and about fifteen new NPCs/Monsters for the event, basing things on certain assumptions. What is challenging (or even overpowering, in the case of Red Shroud or the battle against the possessed Shami-Amourae at the end of the event) for a group of L15 characters is a laughable walkover for L30s, not to mention the RP goodies and sometimes off-the-wall powers of maxed characters. A battle against abyssal ghouls in a no-rest area that severely injured several characters loses its urgency when Mass Heal and Regeneration are on the table.

Not to mention, by the time L30 is reached, most people DO wind up with OOC things to call on, which brings a while new nightmare to the table. My plot depended upon some detective work to track down potential identities for the killer, not hand-waving by "I call in a favor from my abyssal contacts", "The tribe of goblins that serves me canvasses the streets", or "My five tiefling assassins mount a raid on the Temple of the Abyss".

To me, one of the highlights of the entire thing was when Fall-From-Grace showed up, and some of the characters were impressed wtih meeting her. Such would not have been the case if the party had been Hildmor, Maelfina, and Felicia... although interestingly enough, all three of them were involved using different characters.

And that brings me finally to the favoritism bit. Do I have favorites? Absolutely I do, they're the players who are constantly RPing, creating interest, and pushing their characters forward. It doesn't matter if I like them personally or not, they're the people I definitely want in my events. But far from the only people, as one of the best experiences as a NWN2 DM is seeing someone open up and start RPing who you didn't know could do that. I will never turn a player away from one of my events unless they're a complete and utter troll who will attempt to ruin other peoples' fun... but I will turn away characters, either because they are too powerful or entirely wrong for the RP (I'm not going to invite Wren to perform an errand for Malcanthet, or cenpuppie's succubus to confer with a Solar, for instance). Nothing to do with the characters; has everything to do with the event I'm trying to run... because let's face it, if the event isn't fun for me as well as the players, I'm not going to waste my time running it.
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SharpGn2
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I gotta admit a lot of the points made on the original points I myself am guilty of. This ~does~ happen on the server. There are cliques and groups that stick together, and groups of folks who get more attentions than anyone else. Those who don't think it's happening, it is probably because you do not realize it. Cliques happen, rp groups happen, favoritism happens. You have to step outside the box and look at the big picture to realize what is occurring.

Now, some good points are still made. RP is RP. the worst of evil cannot really work with the Lawful Good, and so on. Sigil does permit a neutrality feeling, but nonetheless, there are different philosophies and different sides. The best point made here is to step out of your comfort zone and RP! Also, accept and RP consequences! The point of the bad guy always getting away with it is very true, spans across multiple servers, and really dampens rp. Step outside the box- real danger to your PC makes it much more fun.
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Neli
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Cere, you're talking about favorites; we're complaining about ~favoritism~. Some people just flat out get much more attention that others; beyond normal variance.

People can rationalize "You should be making your own fun", I agree - I make tons of forum threads designed to get people RPing and encourage others to participate. Nelis "company" is just an excuse to get a 'group' RP going - talk to anyone who participates in it. Its rare for me to bother a DM for something and I've been made to feel like I'm hassling people for simple requests, like the "Ack! Server crash! I lost my stool!" example I mentioned before - this is a little discouraging when contrasted to others getting events on just about a daily basis.

I will reiterate - I don't play on this server hoping the DMs will give me special treatment - 99% if the fun has come from other players. But I wish there wasn't such obvious disparity in who's getting the attention.


Its really not fair.
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