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Thoughts on Level Caps?; Just wondering
Topic Started: Jul 5 2012, 03:10 PM (1,657 Views)
Reptiller
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Mimir
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@Ravel's Heart: I myself like it when things are capped at 20. PCs...can't really age much on this server however. As far as I know, 1 Day IRL=1 Day SCoD. As for allowing people pick their equipment and level on login...that would be fine in a limited form and only if someone's destroying their Epic PC.

@Tarot/Mad: I also agree with most things said, especially that things get borked on epics.
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Devil's Elysium
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I am utterly against limiting build variety, unless Kaedrin's pack (or some other massive collection of excitement) was added as compensation. The spice (of life) must flow.
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Niryain
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Ravel's Heart,Jul 5 2012
05:59 PM
Alternately, I am in favor of allowing people to set their level, equipment, and gold on login without going through the process of killing things and raiding their remains for valuables, anthema as this seems to the notion of D&D.

I tried out an NWN1 server that let PCs decide what level they wanted to start at. Everyone chose the highest one, I think it was 20. There was literally no one below that level, which made wanting to play anything below it impossible because no one else was the same level. Just one anecdote, I know, but given most people's opinions towards power I think a lot would choose the highest option available if this were the case.
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Ceremorph
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Ravel is actually referring, I believe, to a semi-private server that he and I were part of before joining SCoD. At the entry area, I had NPCs not only to change appearance, but also to quickly and easily level/delevel yourself and give gold; this server existed specifically for DM-run events, and it made it possible for those who were running campaigns to easily prepare them to fit the characters who would be taking part in them.

Now with that said, the issue with preferring pre-epic characters is not so much epic characters, but having them in a party with low-levels. A character like Dom or Nienna (not to single you guys out, just as an example) is going to, by dint of persistant spells and fabulous equipment, have dump stats as good as a L10's best stat, and downright silly scores in almost every measurable thing. That leaves three possibilities: the L10s stand around staring at the wall while the epic auto-wins everything; the epic pulls back and avoids doing things to give the L10 a chance to try, and winds up bored out of their skull; or the DM spends tons of time trying to formulate challenges that will fit both the lowbie and the epic, which in turn pisses some of the epics off because they don't get to use their hard-earned abilities.

This is why I generally try to have a level range for my own events. It's not meant to exclude people, simply to make sure that everyone involved has an equal stake and a semi-equal chance of success. Nothing kills the mood quite like saying "I need spot checks from everyone", and suddenly someone pops out a 90.
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Chronepsis
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jukejointjezebel,Jul 5 2012
01:22 PM
Has reducing the cap to from its previous high ever worked before on any server?

Simply for the record, I will answer that with a resounding yes. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm in support of any cap here, that said.
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Black Wind
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jukejointjezebel,Jul 5 2012
12:22 PM
Has reducing the cap to from its previous high ever worked before on any server?

Pros for lowering the level cap back to 20: Casters and Melee are firmly inline with each other. Challenges are more manageable and easier to design.

Cons: Players will hate it, including me.

It killed Frontier Reborn pretty thoroughly, though that was intentional on the staff's part. I think it can only work on a PW that has a naturally small, like minded pop.

On the thread itself...

I personally prefer servers where the level ranger is 6-12, with a cap at 14. NWN2 is most balanced and interesting at this area, and D&D is as well. For it to work on a server though (a low level one) the actual progression curve must be agonizingly slow, which is something I was only willing to do once. ;) Sigil is the polar opposite with incredibly easy leveling and gearing up, which gives it a nicely laid back attitude.

On events themselves, far too many are excluding high level characters lately (with the highest range I saw being for level 18). In my experience, older PCs need events more than younger ones simply because the younger ones still can level, gear up, and get new adventure. For that reason I try to keep events open (here and servers in the past), with the alternative winning objectives that don't require raw stats. It's a lot harder to come up with situations like it compared to the tried and true "Monsters nao!", so I'm sure I'll run out of those events sooner rather later... and then it'll be to level 18 and under events.
...it was less vitriolic than expected.
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Higher Porpoise
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The_Tarot,Jul 5 2012
02:08 PM
At the end of the day, that's what It's about, in my opinion. If something arbitrary as level inhibits RP, then something is seriously wrong.

^This.
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Mr_Otyugh
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Level cap is always a bit two sided blade. At the time we started to make SCoD it came pretty clear to us from the popularity of servers that the servers with lower level caps never seemed to quite be able to sustain that much of players. So we made the ECL-level cap up to 30 and chose that we wanted to have the "journey" mandatory, but less of a chore with only couple points experience granted from everything that would inevitably only really lead to fighting the weakest beings alive since that'd be time-reward-challenge efficient.

As for how I feel about it? Well I feel that levels 3-12 are the most exciting, levels 1 and 2 are chore and levels 12 and above start to give out all kinds of odd stuff that starts to break the gameplay. On other hand such place would have to have other types of progress measures since levels and experience just wouldn't work if you wanted it to be journey based, not destination based. And likely a lot more choices and more flexible "leveling" system that grants lesser features as well as far greater variety of combat options to keep it appealing, but more often since having dumb levels with nothing are especially boring if you have to spend weeks to get next feat of notice.

Re: DM Events with restricted levels. I understand them really, I wouldn't per say necessarily market certain level range, but more likely gravitate toward finding people in <zone of level range>. Sometimes I just want to provide challenge to people who don't have answer to 'everything' already and whom hasn't solved somethings thousand times over. Also assisting new players to become more established as they get some reputation as well as confidence on what they can do or get away with. On other hand there's the oldies hanging around bar waiting for someone to entertain them, well. I have little empathy for them :P sorry, I tend to like to invite people whom are enthusiastic and still have goals for events. Granted I haven't yet made any level restricted event as far as I recall...
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cryptc
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Since we're sharing personal thoughts, I'll share my own

Basicly I think of nwn2 as a game with a number of shiny toys... races, classes, feats, spells, etc... So while I find lower levels more interesting, I hate having to limit content to a half of all that is in the game... Ideally I'd want 1-15th level, with loads more content to make up for the stuff that was missing... but this isn't practical
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hunvagy
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Mid levels might be the best, but one also has to consider other implications. If the limit was say.. 17, you'd have to lower item level approprietly, too. Since a lvl 17 crafter wouldn't be able to make qutie a few things, which would limit the variety of items the players can make or get. And given our setting, it'd also mean that most interesting places would never be travelable. I understand the thought behind it, so that PCs don't jump the devil just because they can exhale at it and it falls over dead. On the other hand, who'd want to play lose-on-auto scenarios, since you know you'd never be close to match their power level, unless you go with a specific combination. We'd have shitloads of Drow clerics running around, that I can tell you. SR, needs no one to enchant weapons and armor, a one man fighting machine. You can't force people to want to work in teams, not even with level caps.

I for one prefer the more explorational side of quests. Combat only when necesary, and puzzles and obstacles where ability scores and skill points don't mean jack. You either figure out the solution yourself, or get stuck and die. That way, level doesn't matter at all.
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Hydra
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I do not like levels caps, even if my preferred levels are from 3 to 12. I do think a slow progression is something anyone would wish on PnP because it helps player to manage a lot of things that the NWN2 engine is doing automaticly. However we're in an online game, things are different and leveling and building becomes an actual part of the game of it's own right.
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Tomekk
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I find level caps pointless... sure, some classes benefit more from high levels than others, but that'd just mean limiting how much fun you can have with your character's mechanical side. (which I, being a player of mighty fighters, quite like :P)

As for Events, I don't see levels as much of an issue, really... if a certain PC feels too high and mighty due to that shiny big number, I'm sure getting beaten by a much stronger NPC will make it cease, for example. IMO it only let's you have more feats or skills to play around with :rolleyes: I've seen competent people lead groups of greatly varied abilities and levels. :confused:

And as people said before, this is a computer game (wether or not some people think it's their online drama show/M.U.D. with pretty graphics) and leveling is a part of it.
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Theorum Of Neutrality
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I've always liked a 25 level cap. Also, making it somewhat difficult to get those 5 epic levels is also nice. Having epic levels feel like they're run of the mill makes them decidedly less epic.
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Ravel's Heart
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Reptiller,Jul 5 2012
01:12 PM
@Ravel's Heart: As for allowing people pick their equipment and level on login...that would be fine in a limited form and only if someone's destroying their Epic PC.

I don't see why you'd have to destroy one PC to make another. *shrug* All that does is keep all the epic levels and items in the hands of the same players.

Throwing it open from the beginning allows people to RP the race and class they want with the levels they want from the very beginning. On some level, the whole process of grinding for levels and items strikes me as somewhat akin to rats repeatedly tapping a bar for food pellets.

Quoting Tomekk:
Quote:
 
And as people said before, this is a computer game (wether or not some people think it's their online drama show/M.U.D. with pretty graphics) and leveling is a part of it.


Running around the Abyss or Carceri is, to me, the equivalent of Freecell with slightly more complicated rules. Once you understand how the game is played, you are guaranteed to win as long as you don't do something stupid.

In the end, it's the roleplay that's interesting. Involved storylines (drama show, if you prefer) has an emotional impact that finding aurorum or a purple weapon just doesn't match.

Quoting Tarot:
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At the end of the day, that's what It's about, in my opinion. If something arbitrary as level inhibits RP, then something is seriously wrong. [Emphasis added.]


It isn't arbitrary.

If I said, "I'm a big fan of twin primes. 17 and 19 are the largest twin primes on SCoD, and I'm consequently going to use them as level range restrictions on my events," that would be arbitrary.

Saying, "At epic levels there is an exponentially larger number of factors to keep track of while devising fun obstacles for players, and that is why many DMs prefer lower level adventures" is rational, not arbitrary.

Quoting Machin Shin:
Quote:
 
It's a lot harder to come up with situations like it compared to the tried and true "Monsters nao!", so I'm sure I'll run out of those events sooner rather later... and then it'll be to level 18 and under events.


It's not even monsters, though that is part of it. If you tried to challenge a party of 4 halfway competent level 25-30 PCs with NWN2 OC/MotB/SoZ foes, it more or less can't be done. Truth be told, almost any competent player with a reasonable build and equipment could solo any two or three NWN2 OC opponents without difficulty.

SCoD has many, many more options available, and using DMFI and some of the DM tools we have available to us, it is possible to dramatically scale foes much more easily than on other servers I have DMed on.

But, as I said, it is not just about monsters. The more skills, feats, and spells a PC has available to her, the more situations become manageable to her. Something that is a real obstacle to a level 7 PC becomes less than a speed bump for low epics.

Quoting Devil's Elysium: (I am amused by that name, by the way)
Quote:
 
I am utterly against limiting build variety, unless Kaedrin's pack (or some other massive collection of excitement) was added as compensation. The spice (of life) must flow.


And cryptc:
Quote:
 
Basicly I think of nwn2 as a game with a number of shiny toys... races, classes, feats, spells, etc... So while I find lower levels more interesting, I hate having to limit content to a half of all that is in the game... Ideally I'd want 1-15th level, with loads more content to make up for the stuff that was missing... but this isn't practical [Emphasis added.]


I actually wrote a long(er) post in which I calculated the combination of class/level combinations possible in NWN2, using a 30 level cap and only the 15 base classes. If anyone wants to see the whole thing...you need to get laid. ;) But, the point is that there are are more than 10^17 possible combinations. This ignores the fact that some combinations are impossible. For example, you couldn't combine monk and barbarian levels.

On the other hand, it excludes PrCs, races, and the fact that two Wiz 20/EK 10 builds will have different stats, skills, feats, spells, and equipment. In short, there are actually vastly many more combinations than that possible. In fact, there are more than anyone could play in many lifetimes.

Despite the number of possible combinations out there, one does tend to encounter the same 20 or 30 builds fairly commonly. At some point, I don't feel like additional choices really add much to gameplay. Other people feel differently. To each their own, I suppose.

Quoting hunvagy:
Quote:
 
Mid levels might be the best, but one also has to consider other implications. If the limit was say.. 17, you'd have to lower item level approprietly, too. Since a lvl 17 crafter wouldn't be able to make qutie a few things, which would limit the variety of items the players can make or get. And given our setting, it'd also mean that most interesting places would never be travelable


Obviously, the areas would need to be changed if this were to happen. And to be clear, it is not going to happen!!

Interestingly, if the cap had been set from server inception, those areas would have been able to use NWN2-standard versions of some of the available creatures, which just re-emphasizes my point that creating challenges for upper level PCs involves additional preparation.

Quoting Niryain:
Quote:
 
I tried out an NWN1 server that let PCs decide what level they wanted to start at. Everyone chose the highest one, I think it was 20. There was literally no one below that level, which made wanting to play anything below it impossible because no one else was the same level. Just one anecdote, I know, but given most people's opinions towards power I think a lot would choose the highest option available if this were the case. [Empasis added.]


This, I think, is an interesting statement.

Why is it impossible to play a low-level PC when epic levels are given for free at startup?

People who are generally aghast at the idea of being allowed to play any level PC they like often say something like, "But then, no one would ever play a low level PC!"

My first response is, "So?"

But I think the better question is this: Why not?

Does no one want to play a low level PC because it's not fun? If that is the case, why are we making people play them? Why force people to do something that isn't fun?

If it is fun...if you really do enjoy grinding for levels and finding lewt and trading it...no one is stopping anyone from doing that. Go on and start at level 1 if that's what you're into.

At some level, I think the real reason people are opposed to the notion of being able to select level and items at startup is something more along the lines of, "But I spent 1000 hours levelling Thorax the Mighty and equipping him just so...and now anyone who logs on can do that instantly! *cries*"

Anyway, these are just my ruminations on levels, items, and caps. By an large, the mechanics of the game are not what makes it interesting to me. It's the character interactions, plot twists, and otherwise engaging RP that attracts my interest.

Also...

...SCoD needs some better monk gloves. ;)
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Mabus
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I've never liked any kind of idea about limiting PCs at all. I'd, personally, be more attracted to being able to make characters get to L100, rather than limiting to some lower level (although that would be impossible as it would require tons of custom feats, custom monsters, and custom....well, everything...this was just an example).

Though it's pretty easy to get epic level PCs, in my opinion, it'd be more balancing to not limit PCs, but to rather make it much more difficult to level in general. Multiply the amounts of XP to reach a next level like x10 or something. It would allow people to continue as has been, and (I believe) balance out the different levels of PCs greatly. There would be more low levels at the start, and much less high-to-epic levels overall. It would make the life of PCs much more realistic. Epic PCs then would be more in tune with epicness, and more god-like, and would have been greatly earned.
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