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Thoughts on Level Caps?; Just wondering
Topic Started: Jul 5 2012, 03:10 PM (1,655 Views)
MirielKanan
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I'm going to sum up my thoughts like this ..... Eh.

I enjoy RP way more than Leveling. I only level my characters at all to keep up with everyone else.
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Theorum Of Neutrality
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We should get married, Abbey. It might be illegal. I'm not sure.
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Ravel's Heart
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Pretty sure that at least one of you lives in a state where it would be legal.

Also pretty sure that at least one of you is already married! :lol:
"What can change the nature of a man?"
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Theorum Of Neutrality
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Ravel's Heart,Jul 9 2012
02:32 AM
Pretty sure that at least one of you lives in a state where it would be legal.

Also pretty sure that at least one of you is already married! :lol:

As if that's stopped me before. :P

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Ravel's Heart
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Hahahaha...

I am at work, bored (which is one of my favorite things in the world!) tabbing back and forth between this forum and textsfromlastnight.com

I think that your message would fit equally well on either board! :lol:

Also, just to get back on topic...

Yay level caps! :ph43r:
"What can change the nature of a man?"
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Gildren
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 7 2012
04:21 AM
One thing i do like about our server is the mix of players we have.  We have the hardcore grinders, the hardcore RPers, and everything in-between.  You want a grind, you can find those who will grind with you, you want to RP, you can find them as well (of course, this is a generalization - sometimes it takes some luck, effort, or just knowing the players).

I think the relatively easy levelling, combined with the level 30 cap, satisfies a wide range of player types.

I think I would have to agree with this sentiment. There are times when I would like to just RP, and there are times when I would like to level up a character. A lot of the time I enjoy doing both at the same time.

I feel that the general respawn timing, treasure rewards etc support this quite well. then again, I do not have any high level toons as of yet, so I don't know what the post epic experience is really like *shrug* Given some time, I guess I'll figure that out.

Though as a fair new player, I do think it might be unattractive to not be able to achieve the same levels that other players before you have been able.

Just an 00C though, 2cp and a gain of salt of course
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Abby
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Blood
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I think someone already mentioned it, but another biggy. It sucks trying to run events for epic level PCs.

How do you challenge PCs who can read minds, speak any language, fly, kill anything, vanish beyond detection at will etc. How do you impress "dire" situations in groups who consider going into hell and slaughtering countless fiends to be something akin to having a walk in the park, or stepping on ants. There is nothing scary in Sigil.

In order to run an event that inspires a sense of "fear" into PCs, it has to be some epic world shattering plot involving Lich kings, beserk Gods or alien invasions. But run too many of those and they become old hat. Remember the good ol' days when murder mysteries and orc raids were "huge" events? Ha.

Case in point: Yesterday Abby went with Jall and fought some thing called the Painbringer. We couldn't kill it, sure, but neither could it kill us. It was a stalemate. I can't imagine there is much on this server that's tougher.

I know from experiance that its so much easier and funner to run events for low to moderatly powered groups of PCs. They have limited resources and options and so they have to use their minds and think things through rather than just falling back on super-duper mind-bending powers.

I suppose I just don't see a need for 30 levels. You have tons of non-broken combinations and possibilities from 1 to 20, and the higher the level gap, the farther it spreads PCs apart from one another.

Oh, and Silverfish: E8 is the system Legacy uses where you start at levl 2, and can get to level 8, and then from then on, you only get feats when you level. No more HP, AB, skills etc. So its a cap, but you can still progress by taking E8 feats so you don't get stagnant. They have a custom ruleset that plays much closer to Dragon Age than D&D though so it may not work here. But I prefer when even a badass E8 PC can actually be killed by a dozen or so town guards. It keeps things believable. Your average Sigil PC can "solo" heaven or hell. I mean... come on. So long as im not in the mood for "believable" ... this is fun.

Also, how the hell do you even RP a 38 wisdom? Its higher than all but one or two gods. Infact I think Abby is wiser than Ilmater. *Abby looks at you and knows everything about you and everything you've ever done and will do by simple intuition alone.*

Or a 38 charisma? Does that mean everyone who looks at you has to make a Will save DC 40 or immediatly try to rape you?

PS. Abby considers your proposition nice, and while she regretably cannot marry you, she's happy to accept your donations. :)
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hunvagy
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Why does it always have to boil down to dire stiuations and fear when someone speaks of an event? As I said before, there are many other aspects of stories and adventure, that don't depend on level or power. You just find happenings and challenges that are on an even field to all characters. Make people have to think for themselves, out of the box, not relying on a sure fire dice roll. And believe me, a properly leveled monster can flatten any party if they don't work together, epic or not. Ask Cadence for some of the (tm) horned devils :P

How do you RP 38 wisdom? How does the DM do it, when the party meets an epic dragon? Have you seen the epic level handbook? 1800 hp dragons with at will prismatic wall spells and 40+ ability scores. That's why it is called epic. *shrug*
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Abby
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Quote:
 
Why does it always have to boil down to dire stiuations and fear when someone speaks of an event?
It doesn't "have" to, but it would be nice if that was a possiblity at times.

Quote:
 
How do you RP 38 wisdom? How does the DM do it, when the party meets an epic dragon?
Thats the problem, they dont. If I use a lot of old Confucious sangs and other "wise" remarks, I can play Abby off as being a "wise" person, but I don't know how to play her as having a 38 wisdom when I as a player am sporting a lowley 20 (more like 8 or 9). Essentially im just RPing her as having almost prophetic powers due to her insight, but that requires other players to give me special tid-bits in tells. But even that doesn't come close to goddess like wisdom. Other than using big words and keeping a detailed journal, how do you RP a 30+ int? Its just weird and beyond reasonable.

As for epic combat events, The DM has to gear encounters for the highest level PC which makes all the rest of the group largley irrelivant. Especially when up to 20+ levels seperate the participants. Events become a balance nightmare, and the only real goal of the noobs who can't compete with the epic party members is to stay out of the way and not consume raise dead scrolls.

Now sure DMs can run non-combat stuff more centered around RP, but combat "is" a part of D&D that most all of us enjoy. Also, its hard to come up with new and creative stuff as a DM (its what causes many to burn out). So easy balance means a DM can just toss some monsters at PCs and see what comes up and run with it. Vastly easier to DM simple events when you start with mindless action. Whenever I DM, I prefer when my PCs are all roughly in the same neighborhood of power, and that power level isn't incomprehensable to guage without a master's degree in epic level physics. Having 30 levels worth of players just makes it that much more difficult to find a group that isn't all over the place.

Also, even with RP -only- events, how is a level 5-10 PC anywhere close to on par with an epic level whose "convorsation skills" are up in the 40s? Who can talk to Gods with a spell for special insight, travel the planes, read thoughts and speak any language? What good is a murder mystery when the PC can simply ressurect the victim and read his mind to find out who-done-it?

In my experiance, DMs almost always disallow my epic level abilities that would spoil their plot in RP events with strange rationalizations. Such as: "Well alas, he can't be ressurected because a GOD has stolen his soul with a special unbreakable curse." or, "Something is blocking your ability to use that spell/power." Its for a reason, events are impossible to plan out and run when PCs have so many stupidly powerful abilities at their fingertips. Wouldn't it just be simpler to limit their level, and thus their crazy stupid power levels?

On the server I play that uses E8, every member of the party can contribute, both in combat and out. Even a level 2 PC can at least participate in combat and make an impact on the outcome, even with E8s in the group.

The advantages of a level cap (and thus smaller spread between new and old PCs) are overwhelming IMHO.

Pros:
* More dungeons to choose from at any given time.
* More events you can be useful in.
* Easier for DMs to run small events on the fly, balance-wise.
* Easier to find groups you can actualy get XP and help out in.
* More attractive to new players who can log on and be useful right away, rather than having to solo grind for a month or two before they can be useful.
* More need for party dynamics and well balanced groups as its harder to be a jack of all trades.
* Some monsters remain "scary." Things like "dragons" "demons" and "Celestials" and even "Gods" get to stay as things you should be afraid of when there aren't PCs mowing through them like grass. Currently, nothing is sacrid... and if it is, its convoluted and bends D&D source.

Cons:

* you can't reach crazy stupid levels of power and impress noobs with their utter inablity to ever pose a threat to you.
* Less diversification capability, so that you might actually have to depend on others now and then. This can impede soloing ability on slow nights.
* Less room for growth, even if that growth is more like a hidious mutation after a certain point.
* You may max out your PC and then get board with her sooner than if you've got more levels to look forward too.

On servers with level caps, there is usually a secondary advancement system in place so you don't get board and feel like your PC is maxed out. On Legacy for example, you can get E8 feats and Legacy points (fame) which let you gain positions of power such as "Knight" "Marchlord" or "Magistrate." Get special perks, unlock capstone classes (more powerful level 8 presige class), etc.
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Cadence
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Abby,Jul 9 2012
05:20 PM

Also, even with RP -only- events, how is a level 5-10 PC anywhere close to on par with an epic level whose "convorsation skills" are up in the 40s? Who can talk to Gods with a spell for special insight, travel the planes, read thoughts and speak any language? What good is a murder mystery when the PC can simply ressurect the victim and read his mind to find out who-done-it?

I never ask for bluff/diplomacy/intimidate checks in my events, regardless of level (as the cliche goes: roleplay, not roll play).

Also, I tend to have a lot of murder mysteries, and often make it such that the murder victim is unressurectable.
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Abby
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Probably not the place for it, but... I've got every feat, skill point and item possible invested into Diplomacy. I would actually like to be able to make use of a significant portion of that part of my character sheet I sacrificed combat ability for. I know rolls should never replace RP, but if we can't use these skills in a DM event, when can we use them? Diplomacy is just as valid a skill choice as hide. The feats that go into it, just as valid as knock-down.

Also, if you don't differentiate between the power-built combat machine with the 6 charisma and -2 diplomacy, and the refined, highly trained diplomat with the 30 diplomacy and 20 charisma whilst talking to NPCs, whats the point of adding any points into Charisma and diplomacy?

Diplomacy represents the body-language, tone and other social ques not represented by our 2-dimentional, text based form of communication. It should influence how your words are recieved, even if everyone knows that content "is" still the trump card.

PS. I love your events Cadence, just food for thought.

back on topic:

Yay level caps! :ph43r:
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cryptc
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Cadence,Jul 10 2012
02:13 AM
Abby,Jul 9 2012
05:20 PM

Also, even with RP -only- events, how is a level 5-10 PC anywhere close to on par with an epic level whose "convorsation skills" are up in the 40s?  Who can talk to Gods with a spell for special insight, travel the planes, read thoughts and speak any language?  What good is a murder mystery when the PC can simply ressurect the victim and read his mind to find out who-done-it?

I never ask for bluff/diplomacy/intimidate checks in my events, regardless of level (as the cliche goes: roleplay, not roll play).

Also, I tend to have a lot of murder mysteries, and often make it such that the murder victim is unressurectable.

Haha, yeah would be kind of downer:

DM: "You turn the landlords key and step into the small room, unfinished paintings are stacked around, obviously the home of an artist. You hardly notice these though because of the horrible smell of the woman dead on the floor with a knife stuck in her back and..."

Player: "I cast raise dead!"

DM facepalms...
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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Agony_Aunt
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Get a Life
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cryptc,Jul 10 2012
06:16 AM
Player: "I cast raise dead!"

Option 1:

DM: Ok, so you ressurect her. She animates and starts screaming at you that you are a bunch of idiots and that she was spending a year dead for tax reasons. She grabs a knife and slits her throat. So guys, you want to res her again or shall we say event over?

Option 2:

DM: The corpse comes to life but as it comes to life it also begins to transform into something horrible, gibbering mouths slobber, eyes that seem like dead stars form in anarchic locations around the body, tentacles slither... really, its like something HP Lovecraft would have dreamed up if he had access to LSD. Will saves all DC50 or go insane... thank you. So, X, Y, and Z, you are now slobbering on the floor your brains running out of your ears, the tentacles from the creature make a grab for you,.... what do you mean it should make a hit check? Oh ok, but you are prone *rolls* yeah, you're boned.... as for A and B, well... how the hell did you get Will saves of 80?!?! Never mind, we will talk about that later... ok, so your actions, what are you going to do against this spawn of Ceremorph?

You see why I don't often run events? :D
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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MarQuis
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lets increase lvl cap on 40 as in nwn1....yiihaa. Me luuv to lvl
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Mabus
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What if xp rewards from kills capped at lvl 20, and from then on, players had to rely on gaining xp through rp and dm events?
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