Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Direct Connect: scod.game-server.cc
NWN List
Announcements
Welcome to the forums of Sigil: City of Doors. | New update 5/28/18 - read the update notes here!
Welcome to Sigil: City of Doors. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Multi-Quote Post on Multi-Quote Post off
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 5
Thoughts on Level Caps?; Just wondering
Topic Started: Jul 5 2012, 03:10 PM (1,654 Views)
Mr_Otyugh
Member Avatar

Dungeon Master
Mabus,Jul 10 2012
11:53 AM
What if xp rewards from kills capped at lvl 20, and from then on, players had to rely on gaining xp through rp and dm events?

Yeah, simply no. This is a can of worms we don't want to open as it will inevitably lead to:

a) Bias
b) Perception and hatred towards bias

It tends to become server dividing force that keeps unnecessary pressure on DM team to try to give every player events all the time, that simply won't work, more than likely it would lead to some specific no-lifer people getting involved in just about every event and then people complaining about bias "This and this guy has got 137 events and I've only got 2, favoritism!"

----

Re: Resurrection; it's already implemented in lore that the soul must be willing, and can always go with the route that the soul has been trapped so raising or resurrecting would be impossible.

Re: Diplomacy, bluff, intimidation; Trust me, there's power built "RP-skills" also where people just love to flash their 80 roll of some skill, at some point it simply becomes so ridiculous that RP actually matters more than mere numbers. I understand the sentiment, but I feel it's more important to separate RP from power gaming all together. This kind of behavior mostly stems down to everyone wanting to be 'the best' at some type thing. "I want to play the best liar", "I want to be the very best diplomat", "This guy is totally the scariest of all" it's less about RP and more about competition and flashing people around how good you are at math :P
Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator
NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller
Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder
In-case of problems: Click Here
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cryptc
Member Avatar
Advisor
Admin
A DM can also add circumstance modifiers when faced with illogical statements and high rolls

Player: "I am the God Thor *rolls bluff 78*

DM: "Err yeah, this npc likely wouldn't believed that even if Thor really did come up to him saying that"
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mabus
Member Avatar
Squishy
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
There's always going to be people who feel there is bias in the community. And there's always going to be people who have a plethora of time on their hands to invest into their character to make them uber as opposed to those who have families and jobs who don't get the luxury. No matter what kinds of solutions are implemented or thought up, this is going to be there. Even if the levels were capped at 1, and people had to rely 100% of RP, there are always those who can spend all their long days in-game RPing. And in those cases, when people cannot judge characters from how powerful they are, they'll instead be judging on how popular they are socially. It's a lose-lose situation. And I really don't see any way to make things better than they currently are without actually making them worse for one player-type.
(Account Name: Lazzdar)
"In the end all things betray you. Honor. Ideals. Heroism. Allies. Comrades. Lovers. Your eyes. Your limbs. Your heart. And in the end, you betray yourself. And that is the greatest betrayal of all."

~Lament of the Cambion Zaxarus, hero of the Blood War.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ceremorph
Member Avatar
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
Admin
Two things to add here:

1. I think it's been said before, but the only way to truly successfully have level caps on a server is to have them from the start, otherwise people feel you're "taking away" from them. And even in that case, you'd need to have something else (such as the system Abby speaks of, or unique PRCs, etc.) to take the place of the higher levels.

2. Why does every mention of tentacles have to wind up referencing me? I mean yeah, Ceremorphosis -> Mind Flayers - > Face Tentacles, but that's not quite up to "I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going" territory!
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Reptiller
Member Avatar
Mimir
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
cryptc,Jul 10 2012
01:24 PM
A DM can also add circumstance modifiers when faced with illogical statements and high rolls

Player: "I am the God Thor *rolls bluff 78*

DM: "Err yeah, this npc likely wouldn't believed that even if Thor really did come up to him saying that"

And an evil DM would have LoP fail the check if that occurs in Sigil. :lol:
Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mr_Otyugh
Member Avatar

Dungeon Master
Mabus,Jul 10 2012
02:16 PM
There's always going to be people who feel there is bias in the community. And there's always going to be people who have a plethora of time on their hands to invest into their character to make them uber as opposed to those who have families and jobs who don't get the luxury. No matter what kinds of solutions are implemented or thought up, this is going to be there. Even if the levels were capped at 1, and people had to rely 100% of RP, there are always those who can spend all their long days in-game RPing. And in those cases, when people cannot judge characters from how powerful they are, they'll instead be judging on how popular they are socially. It's a lose-lose situation. And I really don't see any way to make things better than they currently are without actually making them worse for one player-type.

Definitely, but that "value" is abstract and something only given by people, so it's also equally easy to ignore. Much less easy to ignore if DM attention equaled to power which it would on level-cap + get levels if you participate. DM events wouldn't even be about fun then, they'd only be about progress. Then I could always state timezones, number of DMs compared to number of people... that system works for PnP, but it won't work for multiplayer. Servers which uses system that requires DM attention for progress tend to become the most unhospitable communities because of attention seeking rather than 'fun' seeking.

I'd rather give no-lifers the benefit that they can grind more if they want rather than take away a lot of the odds of casual players realistic chances for progression due to requiring to be part of events.
Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator
NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller
Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder
In-case of problems: Click Here
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
The_Tarot
No Avatar
Greybeard
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Agony_Aunt,Jul 10 2012
07:07 AM
cryptc,Jul 10 2012
06:16 AM
Player: "I cast raise dead!"

Option 1:

DM: Ok, so you ressurect her. She animates and starts screaming at you that you are a bunch of idiots and that she was spending a year dead for tax reasons. She grabs a knife and slits her throat. So guys, you want to res her again or shall we say event over?

Option 2:

DM: The corpse comes to life but as it comes to life it also begins to transform into something horrible, gibbering mouths slobber, eyes that seem like dead stars form in anarchic locations around the body, tentacles slither... really, its like something HP Lovecraft would have dreamed up if he had access to LSD. Will saves all DC50 or go insane... thank you. So, X, Y, and Z, you are now slobbering on the floor your brains running out of your ears, the tentacles from the creature make a grab for you,.... what do you mean it should make a hit check? Oh ok, but you are prone *rolls* yeah, you're boned.... as for A and B, well... how the hell did you get Will saves of 80?!?! Never mind, we will talk about that later... ok, so your actions, what are you going to do against this spawn of Ceremorph?

You see why I don't often run events? :D

People seem to think that Raise Dead doesn't require consent on part of the target. Who automatically knows what alignment the caster is (You cannot lie to the soul.) to determine willingness to come back. A Lawful Good deceased may not accept a ressurrection from a Chaotic Neutral person by simple differences in viewpoints, and definitely not from an Evil character, and vice versa.

Then there is the whole situation of the departed soul being taken away from his or her god's plane, Which may very well be a paradise compared to it's former life.

Murder mysteries are still very viable things. Provided the storyteller has the foresight to determine the personality of the victim to that thought.

On the same token. "Speak with Dead" wouldn't automatically determine who said killer is. The speaking dead cannot learn new facts, and cannot tell what it does not know, and what it does know is often spoken very cryptically. If the killer was masked, attacked from behind. There is often little to no information provided.

It seriously isn't hard to go down a mental checklist when preparing against such instant gratification answers, but it does leave a bad taste in players mouth when they just hear "Sorry, this doesn't work!" Without being fed a minor clue to encourage them to stay interested in the story.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cryptc
Member Avatar
Advisor
Admin
One thing that could be done within current server would be to have some chars made with lower level limits, perhaps for special DM'ing events, or just a group of likeminded people... could either be enforced by honor, or we can manually adjust LA to say +20 on those that wanted the lower cap (+21 for ogre and half-blood maybe, and maybe +19 for kobold depending on planned build)...

Would provide quite a different challenge on the server with a character that can basicly not level without DM quests or very ingenious methods, or just gathering books. Provided you could manage to gather the gold for it, equipment would still be SCoD standard, so you could make up for alot of the weaknesses like that...

It would also mean playing a character that isn't some epic hero like most SCoD chars turn into... and possibly easier to get invited to DM quests...

Just thought I'd share the idea, if people are interested in something like this, I'm sure we could arrange something (no promises on DM's wanting to focus on these chars though)
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tomekk
Member Avatar
Dark Soul
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Playing a gimped character, sounds fun. *walks past still not getting why people can't just understand that level 30 doesn't make you god >.>*
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cryptc
Member Avatar
Advisor
Admin
Tomekk,Jul 10 2012
03:24 PM
Playing a gimped character, sounds fun.

I wouldn't mind joining a group that did it if one or more DM's wanted to run some stuff for the group... I like working with limitations and overcoming them... trying to find ways to survive in areas that would normally be deadly without planning, etc...

Also it would completely change build dynamics... if making a caster you'd need to focus alot more on one field to be good at it, and if a warrior you'd be more reliant on casters buffing you, so more like pnp.
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tomekk
Member Avatar
Dark Soul
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
cryptc,Jul 10 2012
03:28 PM
Tomekk,Jul 10 2012
03:24 PM
Playing a gimped character, sounds fun.

I wouldn't mind joining a group that did it if one or more DM's wanted to run some stuff for the group... I like working with limitations and overcoming them... trying to find ways to survive in areas that would normally be deadly without planning, etc...

Also it would completely change build dynamics... if making a caster you'd need to focus alot more on one field to be good at it, and if a warrior you'd be more reliant on casters buffing you, so more like pnp.

Don't get me wrong, I can see it working for a group, but I for one wouldn't like it much in a game like NWN2 >.>
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cryptc
Member Avatar
Advisor
Admin
And every player is entitled their own opinions... this is not something that would be forced on anyone
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Abby
Member Avatar
Blood
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
This kind of behavior mostly stems down to everyone wanting to be 'the best' at some type thing. "I want to play the best liar", "I want to be the very best diplomat", "This guy is totally the scariest of all" it's less about RP and more about competition and flashing people around how good you are at math


While I agree that people often want to be the best at something, I know that in my case at least, the motivation is quite differant.

I'm a big advocate of party dynamics. I think the Jack-of-all-trades character has largley eroded classic D&D. I personally like when every PC is the best at what they do, and aweful at what others do. This way, to be effective in events and dungeon crawls, you need a balanced, cohesive group where every member fills a particular nitch and will have their moment to shine.

IMO, giving bards a "boost" was silly. In original D&D, the bard was meant to be the fifth wheel in a group. When you've got fighting, healing, stealing and magic covered, you get a bard to fill in if one of the other four is incapasitated. A sort of jack-of-all-trades walking can of fix-it-flat to hold the group together until the specialist gets back into action. Sadly, this type of PC has been boosted until now a jack of all trades can be a master of all trades. When you've got a whole group of people who are great at everything, there is no chance for anyone to shine because no one knows their role in the group. Everyone is always battling each other for the spotlight in any given event.

In a balanced party, I leave the fighting to our monster of a warrior, who can use his strength to bust down doors, bend bars and repair our stuff. I leave the boss and/or strange obsticles/ quick escapes to the wizard who probably knows how to read ancient writing and can tell you the typical diet of a catoblepus. The locks and traps are for our rogue, or perhaps if we need disguises, to gather some intel, or do some scouting. Abby takes her turn when members get wounded, NPCs have strange illnesses, or we have to talk our way out of a touchy situation with a bit of diplomacy.

Essentially, I powergamed my diplomacy and healing to fullfill a nitch and play a very specific role in a group. Abby sucks at everything else. Badly. I have crit for 1 damage on an accidental attack.

Multi-classing, prestige classes and 30 levels worth of time to master everything is murder on party dynamics. You can't fix them all, but with a level cap, you can at least help keep PCs focused a bit more on one or two particular strengths, rather than near all of them. When its 20 and under, a PC can still multiclass, but usually it makes them weaker in exchange for diversity (with exceptions) but with epic levels, this isn't the case. Your focus hits a brick wall and it actualy makes you weaker to stick with it. Abby would have been more powerful if id left cleric at level 20 and took up another class by far. But I didn't want to butt in on other people's roles.

Focused, nitch oriented characters are good for party dynamics. Party dynamics and well defined party roles are good for multi-player. Multi-players is better than single player.

On the E8 server I play on, there is almost no multi-classing. Every class, no matter how you specialize it, is unique from the others with only small amounts of cross-over. Everyone's got a job to do in a group that they do better than the others, and it works.

edit: Also, flashing a big diplomacy is pretty weak sauce when it comes to powergaming. Thats like being born with a super power, and finding out its the ability to communicate with corn. yay. Most players ignore that Abby is a trained diplomat. Even DMs do. its essentially 33 wasted ranks, 2 wasted feats, and several pieces of worthless gear. If only I could ignore knockdown, sneak attack and weapon specialization. "Oh sorry, you didn't actually just do a bunch of damage to me because I don't really "use" those abilities or consider them a part of my RP."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Agony_Aunt
Member Avatar
Get a Life
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Abby - there are definitely power build bards, but as the player of a bard with focus on healing and summons, i'm definitely feeling like a 5th wheel. :D
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ceremorph
Member Avatar
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
Admin
And it all winds up coming down to that vital difference between PnP and NWN. No DM is going to consent to some of the silliness of builds, such as one level of cleric or or wizard in the midst of a progression, not to mention the "oh gee, I think I'm going to be a shadowdancer today; tomorrow I'll be a warpriest!" implementation of PrCs. Not to mention, who actually "solo grinds" in PnP? There's no impetus there to be a jack-of-all, so most players will prefer to be the best swordsman, or healer, or fire wizard, or tomb robbing rogue they can be instead of trying to combine all four with a silly build. And, of course, you won't be gaining six levels in a single evening of play, so that lame feat is going to saddle you down for weeks or even months of play before you get to take advantage of it in taking the PRC it was a prerequisite for.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Join the millions that use us for their forum communities. Create your own forum today.
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 5