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New player thoughts required
Topic Started: Jul 9 2012, 06:56 PM (904 Views)
Hydra
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Ol' Hydra
Builders/scripters
I'm not so new, nor really old so I guess I can put my piece of advice here.

- What makes you choose a server which you attempt to try out?

The setting, I was bored of all the forgotten realms servers and wished something out of casual hight fantasy.

- What kind of questions do you currently have of SCoD, eiher mechanics, lore or other types questions you'd prefer to be clarified?

Crafting recipes and limits, it took me some times to figure out how it actually worked, same for the new spells. I'm also intrigued about how factions actually works, in-game compared to forum which seems almost mandatory to get the actions noticed.

- Things you usually try to look for first time you hop in to a server?

Community, ability to have some good RPs and gameplay implementation. Regarding that last element Sigil is the best experience I had so far.

- How do you prefer to learn things? (i.e. are you a quiet browser whom prefers to just study things alone, or generally speaking you first ask from people than study any information sources?)

I actually do both, even if I prefer having actually sources to check if I'm not sure.
- Kala Ta'Kan : Factor of the Beleivers of the Source
- Ash (Kazuko Yudeoshi)
- Safana Washedan
- and many other alts.
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Derror
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Prime
[ *  * ]
Ravel's Heart,Jul 10 2012
02:50 AM
-What ever made you start playing a 6 year-old bugfest?!  :lol:

-Some of the things you said about muling (just as an example) serve to illustrate some of the assumptions most people have about NWN2.  I don't know of any NWN2 server where muling is allowed, for example.  But if you've never played before, you might not even know the term.

-Sometimes I think that some of the SCoD features penalize shy people.  You specifically mention arrows in your post, but the fact is that it makes no sense to buy almost any weapons, armor, or items from merchants.  The idea is to force people to interact by making it economically insane to do commerce with anyone other than another player.  It's a good idea.  The downside, of course, is that I am sure you are not the first person who ever logged in, played for a while, and thought, "I'll be level 20 before I can afford a +2 armor."

It makes sense when you understand why.  After you've played a while, it's second nature not to even bother with merchants.  But when you are brand new it makes everything seem impossible.

I wonder how we could help make that more obvious for people.

Hehe, actually you could ask the other three in our group (Neelis, Vilanth, Arman) why they did. I've been playing the Single-Player on-and-off for years, but didn't get into online due to RP. Recently, though (read: last 5 years), I met these folks, and we've talked about D&D a lot, but never done anything about it really. Arman decided he wanted to run a game for us and a few others, online roller since we're spread across the US, and that opened me up in that regard.

As such, it's why I bring up things that "you guys (read: People who have played NWN2 for many years)" really probably don't think about. Such as "over-defining" something like muleing. At this point, you're either going to be getting people who already know, down-to-a-tee, what the term represents, or you'll be getting people who bought it off Steam for cheap who are so new to the game, their ideas and thoughts shine like a beacon of innocence.

Which brings me to my next point: If they are new people to NWN2 in general, they're going to be taking some things for granted. Player-run economy is good, but let me pose the thought this way:

New person comes to the server. They kill bats for awhile, get some coin, have the base weapon type they want and maybe the armor they want (since Half-Plate and Full-Plate are expensive to even craft). Wizards will have a couple new scrolls they can buy off the vendors. Things aren't looking that bad. But shortly after, you get items that are actually worthwhile occasionally.

Here's where it gets tricky: Not everybody who is interested in buying items for the player economy is actively running a "shop", and not all the "shops" are actively buying everything (as opposed to the NPCs). So, instead of standing around trying to hawk wares, or bother people in RP to ask who they need to ask to sell something to (the last part especially), they go to vendors.

Is this kind of a Catch-22, where not being part of the RP is punishment? Not really, due to there being an easy-out of just asking somebody in the OOC room (or similar) how to approach it. The problem crops up in, somebody who doesn't know NWN2 in-general, doesn't want to give a great amount of zeal to learn the base game, just to pick up the server for RP. So, eventually, you run into a problem of "This server is great for RP! But, some of the in-game mechanics are confusing and strange, and I don't want to stop people from having fun just to explain a lot of stuff that is obvious to them." On top of NWN2 being very frustrating on a base-level.

My only thought to fixing this is, maybe have some of the server vets that play characters that own shops be added to a list of people who are "known in Sigil to be merchants of certain goods"? I know certain elements of the forums are "publicly known in-character" and some aren't, but it might help.

And yeah, I do understand why that is, 'cause the server is RP-centric. But, ultimately the lack of some server-specific key elements against the way some mechanics are ("I can't find a player merchant, and the vendor prices are terrible!") feels very brutal. And by brutal, I mean rage-quit brutal.

It's partially why I'm deeply supportive of the information restructure, there are plenty of mechanics that are very helpful, and we've been told the death-penalty for the server is one of the least-punishing out of them all (and at a "small" amount of gold and 1% experience, I can agree with that), but if the playtime of new people doesn't match with player merchants on the server, then hell yeah you're going to have a problem. If basically nobody is around to buy the neat junk you keep finding, so you vendor it, and then die (another thing I've addressed with Mr_O, death penalty can be extremely frustrating if you don't know about the Planar Coins, another concept newbies wouldn't know initially), the 300g you got from selling something worth over 1000g in the player-economy won't really cover it. I know there's been several times where I had a crafting material (Byeshk, Alchemic Platinum) and talked to a player merchant (for the Platinum, the Byeshk was vendored due to nobody being on and I was impatient. I know, personal fault, but as I'm about to say) and was told "There are better materials, not interested."

Now, I understand that there's some personal bias here for only trusting one merchant both IC and OOC. But, if it's going to be a "Use player merchants or you're crippling your income" system, new players need to know who they can bug to at least try and get something decent for what they find. Otherwise, there's a problem with the player economy here that needs to be addressed (Not getting something good? Too bad! ...but. :( ).

Short version: If you want to keep new players, (my opinion is that) you should have more "publicly-known in-character" information to help guide people, so that they don't have to spend an especially longer amount of time trying to offload "things" to get upgrades so they don't get slaughtered.
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Ravel's Heart
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Dungeon Master (Emeritus)
Quote:
 
Now, I understand that there's some personal bias here for only trusting one merchant both IC and OOC. But, if it's going to be a "Use player merchants or you're crippling your income" system, new players need to know who they can bug to at least try and get something decent for what they find.


There have been, at various points, people who listed their available goods for sale on the forum. I don't know why people don't do that more, except perhaps that it's a lot of work.

Truthfully, though, almost any PC of a higher level than yours has something that he can't use and isn't willing to sell to a merchant. Waiting for people who hold put up signs and so forth will only frustrate you, especially since, in my experience, that is a european evening (U.S. afternoon) phenomenon more than a U.S. evening one.
"What can change the nature of a man?"
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Ceremorph
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
Admin
What you are going to find, however, is that these merchant PCs are unlikely to wish to buy anything you find in low-level areas except for crafting materials, rare gems, and distillable items. You are usually best off if you find, for instance, a +3 halberd, unless you can use it or you know someone who does, to go ahead and sell to an NPC merchant. Scrolls can sometimes get decent money if you find a mage who hasn't added it to their spellbook (or in some cases, if you've got UMD and think it might be useful to cast Polar Ray against a monster sometime), but otherwise things that don't have fancy-sounding names for the most part are not going to get bought, unless, as I said earlier, you know someone who can have an immediate use for it.

Where PC merchants are going to help you are in the other direction, when you feel your character is not going to be able to survive in an area without that belt of strength of ring of protection, you're ALWAYS going to be better off dealing with other players.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
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Derror
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Prime
[ *  * ]
(Pre-Post Edit 'cause I got distracted: Ceremorph beat me to the punch, but I'm going to post this un-edited and then additional thoughts after.)

Ravel's Heart,Jul 10 2012
11:17 PM
There have been, at various points, people who listed their available goods for sale on the forum.  I don't know why people don't do that more, except perhaps that it's a lot of work.

Truthfully, though, almost any PC of a higher level than yours has something that he can't use and isn't willing to sell to a merchant.  Waiting for people who hold put up signs and so forth will only frustrate you, especially since, in my experience, that is a european evening (U.S. afternoon) phenomenon more than a U.S. evening one.

While those points are true, they don't really have any bearing on what I'm trying to convey.

A lot of the player merchants I have personally run into either deal in specific things (crafting goods, rare items, more common items but still very valuable to low-level characters, etc), or buy everything. Pestering somebody who only wants to trade in high-level items and trade goods, for instance, with your +4 mundane metal chain shirt doesn't seem to go very far.

Also, such information needs to be compiled for new people to read when they need to. One of the major turn-offs I've been seeing (when we've asked a question OOC for a lot of things, and been told to check the forums), is that a lot of information posted on here -IS- posted, but it's behind several months (if not years) of forum activity, as well as not especially explained (I found out about crafting arrows on the bug-report forum. Of course it wouldn't be explained there, but that's about all the info I found on the matter).

Also, IC or OOC, stopping every piece of RP in the market to ask people if they want to buy your +2 Chain Shirt for 3 hours -REALLY- isn't fun. For anyone, I don't think.

And if they should instead go onto the forums to advertise to sell it, it doesn't really help that they've got less capacity to carry stuff in the meantime, if they aren't just "wasting their time". Some merchants I've seen have been saying "I have too many sets of +5 (blah), not interested." Kinda leaves a problem eventually. Also selling that way requires active forum participation from new players as well (to keep an even system), which some people who are giving the server a try for the first couple hours might not be willing to do (their fault, but if the information is available when they decide to investigate, they'll feel silly for not doing it sooner).

(Note: I'm not suggesting that the player economy is not working at all, but there seems to be some need for working out HOW to get the proper amount of money from it for things, if it's going to be the sole way to get the correct amount of money to purchase necessities (Coins of Life, etc) as well as starter gear. :beatdeadhorse: )

(Post-post addendum: Ceremorph hit it right on the head: The loot table doesn't always give you something you can actually sell to player merchants due to their stock. So you're forced to go through NPCs, which as stated by others, isn't really supposed to happen. Meanwhile, newbies have to either get lucky and have somebody sell them not-high-end gear for a "steal" on the player economy due to not having the cash to afford what is available by players, or as Ravel's said, "I'm going to be level 20 before I have +2 armor". Hence, why I keep putting a critical critique on it.)
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Ravel's Heart
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Dungeon Master (Emeritus)
I understand what you mean. To clarify:

When you are new, sell what you find to NPC merchants. No PC wants your +3 or +4 stuff.

Buy items from PCs.

And if they are asking for more than you have, just laugh.

Don't limit yourself to buying from people who are holding themselves out as merchants. The longer you play, the more stuff you collect, so there is a decent chance that many of the people standing at Khazeet's have items that are doing nothing but collecting dust in their inventory.

Honestly, I have gotten pretty nice things by simply announcing, "I'll pay 250 gold for a +4 weapon" and seeing what I get. Of course now you'd have to offer 350. Inflation. <_<

As for this all being laid out somewhere... *shrug* ...I don't know. Maybe this is another one of those things that's intuitive when you've been playing a while.
"What can change the nature of a man?"
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Derror
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Prime
[ *  * ]
Ravel's Heart,Jul 11 2012
01:16 AM
I understand what you mean. To clarify:

When you are new, sell what you find to NPC merchants. No PC wants your +3 or +4 stuff.

Buy items from PCs.

And if they are asking for more than you have, just laugh.

Don't limit yourself to buying from people who are holding themselves out as merchants. The longer you play, the more stuff you collect, so there is a decent chance that many of the people standing at Khazeet's have items that are doing nothing but collecting dust in their inventory.

Honestly, I have gotten pretty nice things by simply announcing, "I'll pay 250 gold for a +4 weapon" and seeing what I get. Of course now you'd have to offer 350. Inflation. <_<

As for this all being laid out somewhere... *shrug* ...I don't know. Maybe this is another one of those things that's intuitive when you've been playing a while.

Ok, but therein lies the problem:

If you haven't been playing for awhile, how would you know about that?

Nonetheless getting into my statement of "essentials like Coins of Life" (for participating in a group, which is not only encouraged but rewarded), which means a little over 750g per, or several items to vendors whose material cost to craft is at the least 500g per, if not 1,000g or more.
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Mr_Otyugh
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Dungeon Master
Vilanth & Hydra, gave you access as well. You should be having PMs just about now that gives the details.
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Ozzimandias
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Real life Bard, Traveler of the Spheres, Master of Mischief
[ *  *  *  * ]
Hmmmmmm.
Brings me to the idea to sell lottery bags
you make bags with different stuff in it and sell bills (everyone who paid gets a randomized number)
They recieve their price directly out of the bag
afterwards you put another item in the bag and start again
Actual played Characters:
Garen Aerthen: Citizen of "Death of Innocence", Mystic Theurge
Tinkeen: Kobold thief, beggar, Informant, delivery boy
Pyrian Flameborn: Young Fire Genasi searching for his heritage
Garvas: "Drow" Blackguard.
Iron Golem: Must obey....Master!
Liana: poor servant
Vincent Seiler: Artist/Musician "Ozzimandias the Jester"

this list is not complete in lenght
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jukejointjezebel
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Blood
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As a someone who remembers what it was like getting a leg in on this server, I can understand and relate somewhat to what Derror is saying. A few quick things though.

1. Merchants have too many items and not enough buyers. The competition is fierce has depressed the standard +4 and +5 item market. Case in point, one of Thrym's competitors sold a +5 breastplate for 1,000 right in front of him. With prices like that, it's hard to be interested in standing around waiting for buyers.

2. Ask your merchants about items, not necessarily epic, but highly useful and highly in demand, that they'd be interested in buying. No, I'm not interested in your +4 Chain Shirt. But you can bet I'm interested in that Blind Fight helm that drops in lowbie locations.

Furthermore, with my merchant who's trying to be on the lookout for materials for his business partner enchanter, crafting materials are also in demand. I have probably overpayed for mine in the past, but you know what, I'm willing to sweeten the pot if it means getting fifteen ghoul claws instead of 2.

3. Casters and noncasters each have a unique advantage in the marketplace. Caster advantage is that there is no level requirement for spell scrolls. If you have one level of the appropriate class, then can cast it without fail. Also, early access to craft wand can help a caster make some decent money on the server. It is not unreasonable to sell wands at 800*spell level. Plenty of UMDers on the server and we are thirsty for wands. Trust me, it's cheaper to buy new wands than it is to recharge them.

Noncasters have the advantage over casters where they aren't required to rest to be effective. Noncasters can spend a bit of coin, get buffed to hell by a PC, and just wreck the area that was once maddeningly difficult for them. Yes, casters can receive the same buffs but please, your +5 crossbow isn't going to compete with the +5 Falchion.

4. I scoff at higher level players who complain about being broke when they're sitting on over 100 gems and 40 vials of devil's blood. Liquidate your trash and then come and talk to me.

5. Just like you can get different prices on different items between player PCs, you can do the same for the NPC vendors. 700 gold for coins of life is very high. Good on you for keeping a steady supply. Explore the city some and you will find better prices.

6. I see it time and again. Players demand great weapons from merchants and skimp on their defenses. Concentrate on improving your AC, your saving throws, and your ability to get out of a fight that's going badly for you. Do those before you invest in that +5, +1d6 electrical dmg., on-hit silence Alchemical Silver blade and you will be better off for it.

7. The very nature of enchanting on this server leads to severe burnout because, among other things, players in their zeal to undercut a fellow enchanter end up losing the farm because they've been too 'nice'. You will do well to push one of your coterie into learning enchanting on the server if for no other reason than to service the rest of you.




Thrym HammerClang - -Reluctant Dwarven Merchant
Jarlz Bergh -- Ogre WeaponMaster
Yew're Kiddunmeigh -- Elven Light Bow of Solonor
Sstrepekorr -- Yuan-Ti Halfbreed StormLord
Plitzsskin -- Yuan-Ti Halfbreed Ranger
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Agony_Aunt
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Get a Life
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jukejointjezebel,Jul 11 2012
05:55 PM
5. Just like you can get different prices on different items between player PCs, you can do the same for the NPC vendors. 700 gold for coins of life is very high. Good on you for keeping a steady supply. Explore the city some and you will find better prices.

Actually, if there are any differences in prices on the same item between different merchants, then i need to know about it, because it there shouldn't be.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Mr_Otyugh
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Dungeon Master
Ya know, I wasn't really intending to make this a Q and A thread or economics 101 thread xD, mostly just asking questions without any prejudice so that I get the perspective to which I can answer in the guides.
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Vilanth Thistlewind
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Prime
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I think the reason it devolved was due to Derror and I trying to express our frustration with lack of knowledge about the lack of jink we'd been getting while having to vendor items due to not knowing PC Merchants wiling or able to purchase our junk. but now that we know that anything below +5 is junk and should just be trashed to a vendor I'm sure it'll get better.
_________________________________________________________________

Right so.. Group mechanics and map scaling to accommodate the groups on the map. Figured I'd throw this out there just on the off chanc eany one else has a clue or knows of the post you mentioned in the PM.
How exactly does the scaling system work? is it an average of the party members ECL with modifiers or does it take the higher level and scale off of that adding or subtracting in its mathmatical mumbo-jumbo-vodoo-hudo- witchdoctor shenanigans to determine the strength and number of the hostiles on the map.

for example lvl 17-18 or so characters go to a lvl 17-20 map zone should they expect to be trounced by five hostiles Plus summoned pets and casters flinging spells... left and right? when the lvl 18 or so is capable of clearing the map on their own while soloing??
I'm a bit confused on how the math works to generate something so very nearly impossible for a duo when it can be soloed by one of the characters...
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Derror
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Mr_Otyugh,Jul 11 2012
06:07 PM
Ya know, I wasn't really intending to make this a Q and A thread or economics 101 thread xD, mostly just asking questions without any prejudice so that I get the perspective to which I can answer in the guides.

Yeah, again, sorry for hijacking it kinda, just was trying to fully explain it.
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jukejointjezebel
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Blood
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 11 2012
06:02 PM
jukejointjezebel,Jul 11 2012
05:55 PM
5.  Just like you can get different prices on different items between player PCs, you can do the same for the NPC vendors.  700 gold for coins of life is very high.  Good on you for keeping a steady supply.  Explore the city some and you will find better prices.

Actually, if there are any differences in prices on the same item between different merchants, then i need to know about it, because it there shouldn't be.

Nothing sinister or exploitative. I just thought it was accepted knowledge that you can get cheaper coins from Mazzy instead of Leyla.

Thrym HammerClang - -Reluctant Dwarven Merchant
Jarlz Bergh -- Ogre WeaponMaster
Yew're Kiddunmeigh -- Elven Light Bow of Solonor
Sstrepekorr -- Yuan-Ti Halfbreed StormLord
Plitzsskin -- Yuan-Ti Halfbreed Ranger
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