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What's going on with SCoD?
Topic Started: Jul 27 2012, 11:53 AM (2,979 Views)
Agony_Aunt
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@Rob - we are not against making changes to canon with good reason. House rules are a part of any server. But unless there is a good reason to change something then we are not going to change it (eg: Monk being able to take Defensive Roll. We are not going to do that just so your monk can get Epic Dodge).

On the subject of Factols, There are other reasons for not killing them off.

1) New players who are familiar with the setting. They come in and see the familiar Factols in charge. Ok, we allow a Factol to be killed... then what? Faction under new management. We are not going to change the Faction's themselves, and we are never going to allow players to become Factol's, so its just a different name at the top.

2) Why does anyone need to kill off a Factol. If a DM or EM wants to makes some fun with factions and cause some mischief they can allow a top ranking (non-canon) Faction member be killed off and that should be enough to cause some faction intrigue.

3) Why do you[ need to kill off a Factol? So you can get bragging rights while standing around Khazeets? Nice, make yourself a target for every faction member who heard about what you did? Ok, i approve. ::troll::

I disagree about the power of the Factols. Some of them of them are not so high level, any level 30 character would have no problem taking some of the weaker ones on in a one-on-one situation. Its not that they have the power of gods, but we treat them as godlike. They are remote, inaccessible, and powerful (in a temporal sense).

If we were allowing this, and I did run an event where someone was going to try and kill off a Factol, i would make it clear before the event started that a) perma-death, b) chances of success are slim, close to zero, c) I would make sure that it really is a challenge, and d) Even if successful, if your identity is discovered (or even suspected), you are going to have to have your character hide for the next several decades.

Its the consequences that players often disregard. Remember what we did with Hildmor? He didn't even kill any Factols. He just couldn't delay his bloodlust so the deaths of those faction members that it effectively pointed a big red arrow above his head saying "guilty". No proof, just everyone assumed it was his work. And thus he is exiled and lost most of what he had.

Anyway, just my opinion. Your input is appreciated. ;)
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Agony_Aunt
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@Rep - got a project on at the moment. Its going to take a while (involves new areas - urgh, evil - only Cere seems to really enjoy that sort of work), but i can promise you some more Athar and Doomguard NPCs. And there will be dialogues with them, and i'm hoping to fit in a quest with them.

Sorry, no Cipher or Rev League NPCs (wouldn't really fit), although saying that, Rev League members don't exactly stand around waving Rev League flags, and we do have a Gymansium where it is safe to assume most NPCs there are Ciphers, although some could do with having small dialogues adding to reflect this.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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lorgin_2003
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Ceremorph,Jul 29 2012
10:33 PM
And in all seriousness, that's the main reason why the DM team is reluctant to have this sort of change happen. It's all well and good to say "Oh, you killed Alisohn, now Arwyl Swan's Son is the Factol"... but the overall change in faction direction, not to mention its effect upon the other factions (how would Darkwood react? Would Arwyl and Sarin of the Harmonium be natural allies as paladins, or bitter rivals for the different gods and pantheons they serve? How would the Blackguard and Anarchists respond to two powerful factions now slanting towards LG leadership? Would Alisohn's sect within the faction attempt a takeover?) These are all important story points, that would require someone to determine the lore of for the server, probably even more than if someone were to kill Demogorgon or St. Cuthbert.

that actually sounds like a giant plotline to me. have different DM's run different aspects of it, each advancing a different group's motives. then see how it all ends up, and everything that happened during that time ends up being the lore for it all. smaller groups can each try to get their own piece of the pie during all of it, and everyone could deal with the aftermath. communicate everything via the DM boards so everyone is kept up to date and no continuity mistakes are made, and it's a long story arc that can have a TON going on in it. it's about 3 months worth of high activity sitting in your pocket, basically.
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cryptc
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Just to state my personal view (not to be confused with server policy although they often coincide) on killing factols, it's basicly the two points that have already been made:

1. killing one off is always work for dm/admins/modders in some way

2. it doesn't really change anything except remove a colorful well written npc with me putting "Bob" in charge on the faction... (on the bright side, if anyone wanted to kill the next factol that would be less heartwrenching then)

We did actually discuss a pretty interesting line of events on the mercykiller factol assassination attempt on dm forum, while I won't go into details it would lead to a temporary interim factol and quite a bit of fallout (I was especially hoping Hildmor would still be imprisoned at this point for extra drama, this was around the time of one of his trials, lets just say the new interim factol made Alisohn look like mother theresa)

So while in a few months things would be (mostly) back to normal, it's not like a successful attempt would be completely without effects on the city...
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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laozhe
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Out of curiosity, what kind of ongoing plotline would NOT be too energy intensive?
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Sareth675
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I didn't even know a Mercykiller Factol killing plotline was being attempted... guess I'm in the wrong circles? :huh:

Just from a player note... Umm, that kind of plotline wouldn't involve the majority of the player base... especially new characters, or at least I'd have thought so. So it'll be an event for a small group, not such an overhanging plot... an overhanging plot (IMO) needs to have the possibility to involve everybody, regardless of level, class, alignment... If you want to involve everybody, the plot can't be as exclusive as it is to a small group of hitmen.

If it's events that are stagnating the progress of the server, I think events matter most to the higher levels, sure, they don't have so much to do (or so they say, never had this problem myself), so maybe this smaller exclusive event will be good for them? Hells, if they have to perma their chars over it (which I wholly approve of any "major" changes on any server), maybe they'll end up making new chars and having more to do ^_^

Energy intensive from my experiences on the DMC, is using custom areas, or special areas. Using lots of NPC's, with a lot of players at the same time. Naturally everybody wants to do something, everybody has something to say. This can be very taxing. I think the best, "low" energy overhanging plot, would have to be one where the players all act in... smaller groups, perhaps according to their class, alignment. Level might not matter, it might just be similar skills work to X goals, this in turn lets the next group work to Y goal. This then leads to Z outcome which has Q affect. Doesn't need to be canon changing, or it can be. Maybe a bit more obscure part of the setting rather than, main characters?

Just from what I've read, events still seem to be the focus of any worries. :nod:
Karn Scale-Rage = Let's feed the crows!
Van Darkholme = Feel the lash of the spanking! *whip noises*
Noramos Churston = Oh! That wasn't supposed to happen...
Shrub Conifer = Nature... Will rise against you!

Me alts got wiped so I'm making a new string of nut jobs. Enjoy!

If ever somebody needs help levelling, I always have a character in range... or delevellable.
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lorgin_2003
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Sareth675,Jul 30 2012
02:31 AM
Energy intensive from my experiences on the DMC, is using custom areas, or special areas. Using lots of NPC's, with a lot of players at the same time. Naturally everybody wants to do something, everybody has something to say. This can be very taxing. I think the best, "low" energy overhanging plot, would have to be one where the players all act in... smaller groups, perhaps according to their class, alignment. Level might not matter, it might just be similar skills work to X goals, this in turn lets the next group work to Y goal. This then leads to Z outcome which has Q affect. Doesn't need to be canon changing, or it can be. Maybe a bit more obscure part of the setting rather than, main characters?


managing a lot of characters can be done with two simple words that are rarely ever used: roll initiative. you can say one line, move, and take one action during your turn. make 'em count.
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cryptc
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laozhe,Jul 30 2012
06:51 AM
Out of curiosity, what kind of ongoing plotline would NOT be too energy intensive?

Depends mostly on how many players would be involved... lot of work would need a large payoff on player base in general, not a small group of players wanting to prove they are awesome
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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Sareth675
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Quote:
 
managing a lot of characters can be done with two simple words that are rarely ever used: roll initiative. you can say one line, move, and take one action during your turn. make 'em count.


It's a wonderful idea, but if you can get the players to all do that and it works in practice, honestly, you deserve a medal :P Anything more than 6 players attempting to contribute at once and things generally get messy.
Karn Scale-Rage = Let's feed the crows!
Van Darkholme = Feel the lash of the spanking! *whip noises*
Noramos Churston = Oh! That wasn't supposed to happen...
Shrub Conifer = Nature... Will rise against you!

Me alts got wiped so I'm making a new string of nut jobs. Enjoy!

If ever somebody needs help levelling, I always have a character in range... or delevellable.
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lorgin_2003
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Sareth675,Jul 30 2012
03:48 AM
It's a wonderful idea, but if you can get the players to all do that and it works in practice, honestly, you deserve a medal :P Anything more than 6 players attempting to contribute at once and things generally get messy.

that's the thing, the players have to actually comply with the initiative rolls. if they just keep throwing out a sea of emotes, take a note of who they are, and talk to them afterwards about it to make sure it doesn't happen the next time. as long as they're just sticking to doing things on their turn, it's the best way to handle a large amount of PC's being involved. otherwise it ends up as a text waterfall, half the players feeling ignored, a few of them actually being paid attention to, and the rest standing around unsure of what to do, all while the DM is pulling their hair out.

i've seen examples of both situations happen, here as a matter of fact. with the initiative rolls, things went smooth and proper like. without them, it was pure chaos. granted, initiative slows everything down and makes it all take longer, but it's worth the tradeoff.
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Mr_Otyugh
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One could question in a world full of spells like raise dead and resurrection, why'd assassination of factol be permanent to begin with? ;) Why would only PCs be resurrected? It's not like a faction wouldn't have resources to spend on their top guy/gall :P next someone is already going out their way to think or say "soul bind" well sure, in PnP it needs a black sapphire equal to worth of 1000 gold per HD of the target... how many of those do you currently really have in your characters inventory? :P

Besides haven't each time this whole argument has been brought up ended to nobody even ever trying? If you fear the consequences of trying, that's good, that's what you should fear, infact I'd go as far as to say that you should feel the same more often when considering PvP on PCs, you're thinking of killing off some of the most influential the factols that is people in Sigil after all.


As for Revolutionary League, they aren't actually open supporters of Hive :P they're infiltrators and general speakers of anarchy against any orderly groups. I honestly don't know why they're viewed as supporters of Hive, but I don't complain ;) this is take from Factols Manifesto "The Revolutionary League doesn't support anything, doesn't make anything happen. It opposes things, keeps things from happening. League members try to destroy every established organization, and one day they'll do it." It also says the following "The Revolutionary League doesn't have a regular headquarters, or even an irregular headquarters. The League does maintain safe houses, though: places Anarchists can go for quiet talks with like-minded folk." then also "The most upscale Anarchist safe house lies in The Lady's Ward, not far from the City Court. Not only do the Anarchists enjoy operating out of the Guvners' backyard, they also maintain interplanar importers as a safe house for at least a half-dozen other factions! A handful of Anarchists work on a rotating basis, spying on the other factions from hidden rooms, secret panels, and two-way mirrors"

As for why there's most Hardheads? It's easy to understand faction and since players keep contacting them when there's trouble, means they'll continue to be most prominently visible, personally I think that's perhaps for the best since they can maintain some kind of order and peace that prevents all the random murders that we often blissfully let NPCs ignore that occur in public... of course such won't always be the case.


Stagnation isn't simply just events, events are barely 10% of any on going RP at any given time, they may kick start RP, but most of the RP happens outside events. This isn't simple one or another does 'everything' deal which it seems to keep jumping back and forth with. Lets say we did an awesome event, then what? The fact is that sheer majority will be standing in Bazaar waiting for DMs to entertain them more or complain that they are bored and we're back to the begin of this thread. Making event is hardly an issue, it's easy, but if the effect it has to players is near to none, why make it at all? ("Hey that's what we're saying!" goes some of you now, well I'm thinking it from opposite side... since if you're just waiting for events all over again, the event didn't do its work and 90% of the potential RP is wasted.)

Online roleplaying is by sheer majority player to player interaction since DMs and EMs are minority, but that doesn't mean DMs or EMs retain the same role, we have partially same role, but to far lesser extent. We can push something onward, but the bulk of roleplaying should go from PC to PC. But everyone wants to play with the DM, of course it gives rewards and stuff :P then more often than not it occurs in a way that only 2-3 PCs even knows of the thing and rest complains that nothing ever happens. And that's one reason why I hate secrecy, it's not cool except for the 2-3 in the event.
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Cadence
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PC actions having a lasting impact on the server does not necessitate the rewriting of canon.



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Cadence
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Sareth675,Jul 30 2012
03:31 AM
I didn't even know a Mercykiller Factol killing plotline was being attempted... guess I'm in the wrong circles?  :huh:

Nah, it is a plot open to everyone as I understand from the group thread in the IC faction forums.

You'll quickly find that most (if not all) large plots are open to everyone. All it takes is a little browsing to see what's available. ;)
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Reptiller
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Now, before this gets horridly misunderstood the whole killing off of Factols thing was mostly used as an example of the stagnation and how PCs can't truly make a lasting change. Ceremorph, yes, killing off a Factol would bring a lot of infighting or perhaps even start a smaller faction war...but that's the whole thing. That's the reason to kill said Factol off. That would change quite a few things, kickstart other events and make Faction politics a little more tangible. You don't even need to kill a Factol for that...Remember E-Now project. It was said that would it actually succeed, the changes it made would've only lasted for a quite limited amount of time. This is what is wrong with plot policy here. *Reptiller actually regrets not lending EMing hand to the project in form of events back in the days...*

Why are people not interested in Factions, even more established and regular players? It's simple...Lets take a book which swaps its chapters around randomly each time you read it. However, in all of said chapters the main characters are doing f*ck all or the plot wouldn't make sense. Now, no matter how 'preserved' and loyal to some canon that book, it's still a f*cking boring book. People who join Factions simply for the sake of RPing out the philosophy, etc don't find anyone to RP faction-related things with IG...they try to recruit, may be at times even succesfully but in most cases it's a vicious circle of disinterest.

@Mr. O: Those supporters would not be -real- anarchists, no. Just...um, punks. People who like the League and would love others to like it too. As for Hardheads, I am not saying we need less of those. We simply need more of others.

@Agony, on Hildmor: We're all aware that many characters had gotten away with worse things in the past. However, there were other reasons for what happened to Hildmor and I accept them(mostly because I like how things turned out :P). Still, Hildmor I don't think it's appropriate to use Hildmor as an example of IC consequences.

-Rep.
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Darkrob
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When I used the example of the factol killing, that was just that… an example. It was to highlight that even if we’re completely diligent in our planning, in our execution, that… no… you can’t do that because it goes against Canon. Phoenix and the boys were going to work through several people to get what they needed to kill the Factol… but it came down to “why bother”.

This server is chained to books written by people who do not play this server and never will. We are enslaved to other people’s ideas, unable… no… unwilling to use our own. Terrified that if we change one part of Canon that some random player, possibly sometime in the future, might not understand that this particular faction has a different leader.

I hear that argument often from those in charge. “If someone comes to play our world we want them to arrive into what they expect… Planescape as written in the books. Guess what… that argument is bunk.

This game is years old. Anyone who has come looking for a true to Canon PlaneScape sever has already come and gone. Anyone you get now are refugees from other servers. They’re not coming because it’s a true to Canon server… they’re coming because they recognize the name and it’s open for business. They’re coming from other servers that are of comparable ages and they know, as any experienced player realizes, that there’s a good chance the mod has changed over the years. To cling to the hope that one or two people might arrive and rejoice that it’s true to Canon is… well… sad. If that player arrives from the mystic ashes of the Walmart Bargain Bin, installs the game he had no interest in playing all these years, seeks out Planescape servers after all this time then leaves in disgust because the Mercykiller Factol was changed (on a server that has run for years)… his loss… not ours. We have plenty of players with far fewer personal problems, and far smaller egos, than that idiot.

The fact remains… no matter what we do, no matter what we strive for, no matter what we organize… it means nothing if it changes nothing. It’ll be forgotten as soon as a new story starts. Since I have started playing here I have seen Zero changes to the server that were brought on by players and their events/stories. Not one. That simply shows that the keepers of the server are completely unwilling to permit the players to have an effect on the world they play in… and that has all but completely destroyed any interest I have in ever participating in events or plots again. I now come in to RP with a few friends and maybe kill some time grinding. Phoenix has all but vanished, Garen spends his days playing NPC lawyer and Charles drinks his boredom away.

That’s the cause of my stagnation. It’ll be that way until/unless things change.
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