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Feedback to players based on recent discussions
Topic Started: Aug 7 2012, 09:09 AM (323 Views)
Agony_Aunt
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Hey all. We have had a lot of discussions recently about what is wrong (and even a little what is right) and what can be done to improve things. We took your comments on board and discussed them DM side.

Below is our response on the comments raised. This does not mean all Admins/DMs agree 100% with everything that is written here, but there were no major objections and all Admins/DMs have had the opportunity to comment/edit these responses.

Its quite long i'm afraid, but felt it was only fair to respond to as many comments as possible. If we missed something you said, sorry about that, send me a PM.

Before diving into the actual wall of text, please take note. This is our opinion and what we are willing to do for players. Its been said before, and it will be said again, we are doing this for free, for your (and our own) benefit, and if you don't like it, then stop whining and go play somewhere else. OOC bitchiness just causes bad blood and demotivates all around. If you are that sort of player, go find a server (or game) which will fulfil your every desire.. and good luck finding such a server.

Sorry for the negative note there, but we try our best, and when people just throw it back in our faces, you can imagine it gets very demotivating for us.

Finally, this thread will remain unlocked so people can respond, but any posts which just start rehashing old topics or just complaining about our responses will be targets for deletion. You have had your say, this is ours.

Anyway, here is the list, and hope we at least address some of your concerns.

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Category: New Content
This was addressed in the original post, new content is a short term fix. While some players/DMs deliver new content, they do it because they want to do it and enjoy it. Making things upon request is not enjoyment, it’s a PITA. As builders/scripters do this for free, as a labor of love, making new content is always going to be something that 90% of the time from builder’s desires.

However, the Ideas and Suggestions forum has brought forth some good ideas over time and some have been implemented. Also consider commercial game servers which can churn out new content frequently – new content is decided by the company, not the players, so at least on our server players get a voice.

  • Persistent housing for persistent guilds
  • Need more endgame areas and the ability to kill good guys
  • More playable races, classes, and faction-specific perks
  • Some factions require more NPC presence in Sigil
  • Faction related quests are lacking
  • More areas would give people more places to go.
  • More static quests and level-specific dialog and quests.
We do not see what most of these will do to resolve the central issue raised. Most are things that we may add as-and-when builders are willing to work on them. We do our best to please.

Persistent housing for guilds deserves special attention. It has (apparently) been stated before that we would be willing to add, if someone was willing to make the areas. This means you who are wanting the housing. If you don't have the skills to make good quality areas, then you will have to recruit someone who does. Any such areas would have to follow our build guidelines - Ceremorph can provide more information to anyone wanting to try their hand.

Otherwise. feel free to repurpose existing areas for your own needs as and when you want to run player side events, there are several houses which can be used.

Category: Server Structure/Rules/etc

  • over centralization
  • Decentralize the startup process
Having discussed this and listened to input from players who have played on servers with decentralized starting locations, the general feeling, with the relatively low population of our server, a central starting point is still the best for this server at this time.

  • Khazeet should pack up and go bye bye.
And players will simply find another place to hang around. The combination of bar and merchant stalls means at least players, especially new players, have the chance of meeting other players upon entering the server and if lucky find someone willing to enchant/craft items. And regardless, there are still plenty of times when there are 20 or more players on and the Bazaar is empty (except maybe for a lone player standing AFK by the bar).

  • Should add baatezu and tanar'ri as playable factions
This is just something that can be served best by simple RP, not a mechanical solution.

  • Regular Live OOC "state of the union" meetings
One of the better ideas proposed and something we can consider. The only real problem is finding the best time to run such with a global player base to avoid exclusion.

  • Existing faction point systems too hit or miss and/or forum dependent
Agreed. The original system as implemented brought some improvements, but it is realized that faction points are just simply too difficult to distribute. Current feeling is we should divorce faction points from promotions entirely and we will consider what else we can do to make things better here.

  • Need to get tougher with rule breakers
Strongly disagree. Generally speaking we have a very good player base which play within the rules. The softly-softly approach has worked well for years and we have had a minimal number of ragequits/bannings due to rules being broken.

Category: Canon

  • Adherence to Canon is causing stagnation
The main canon we adhere to is the LoP and named faction NPCs. Almost everything else is up for discussion and change. We see no benefits and only negatives to allow players to kill off Factols. The only benefit to players to killing off Factols is to satisfy their egos. Events can always be run where players get the chance to kill off other high ranking (non-canon) NPCs. Additionally, killing a Factol requires us to modify all in-game lore relating to that NPC.

We do not view it as causing stagnation and the same with any PW, PnP world, or whatever. In most there will always be those things that remain fixed and give a framework upon which the rest of the world is built. Around that framework things can change.

  • Allow players to change lore/setting
This was mentioned several times as well, and the context seemed to revolve more around making changes to the world in general that were reflected in game with area updates or similar. We are not against, and it has been done several times. However, the same points arise here as regarding new content. Remember, not all DMs/EMs are builders as well so some just cannot make the changes based off their own events.

However, you do have a chance to allow this to happen, you just have to approach it right, which means discussing the proposed change with the team (and the DM/EM responsible for the event which caused the change), getting a builder on board to make the change (difficult i know), and then waiting for it to be implemented (which can take a few weeks depending on update schedule and availability of the builder).

Category: Grinding

  • Levelling is difficult if you do not know what you are doing or have the support of the in crowd
  • Prohibitively difficult to solo
  • The SCoD power scale attracts a certain kind of gamer
We have noted a power creep over time especially as areas have been reworked. While we wish to promote players to group up to go adventuring, we recognize that at times it is not possible to find others to party with, and that weak builds particularly suffer because of this. Therefore we will keep this in mind as we move forward with developing new areas or revising old ones. We cannot promise an overnight fix for this though. However, we will try and make grinding solo less of a nightmare.

Category: Economy

  • Economy is stagnant and one-sided
We know there are problems with the economy and from time to time take steps to try and improve it. Most ideas suggested come with their own inherent problems and know enough about other servers to know that it’s a common problem, although they may suffer from different economy related problems. It’s a fine balance between allowing people to gather jink to make purchases with some effort and getting to the point where even low level characters can fairly quickly equip all +5 items. We would rather err on the side of caution here.

We will do what we can with regards to this when good ideas are forthcoming that will actually solve the problem.

Category: Events

  • Events cater to established PCs
  • The bad guy never gets the ultimate victory
  • Would like to see more DM sessions and hooks for new PCs
  • Event request forum
  • Unwillingness to run events for Epic chars
  • Too much faction-oriented DM focus rather than player-run organization events
It is interesting that some people feel as if the established PCs get the attention with events, whereas others feel like established PCs are excluded.

The EM initiative was introduced to try and help this, and overall it has been a positive move, allowing players to become mini-DMs. What it has also shown us that we were right not expanding the DM ranks further. We have recruited several DMs over the years who did not make many events (myself included) or faded away/left the server/took extended breaks after becoming a DM. Considering some players have suggested from time to time revoking DM status from inactive DMs, the EM role makes even more sense, as we do remove that status periodically.

From this point of view it also makes sense for us to keep the DM team to a core who are more oriented on running the server and instead focus on expanding/enhancing the EM role. For example, making things easier for EMs to make events by allowing longer access times to the DM client or simplifying the process of application. It is something we can consider.

In terms of the other points relating to the plots, their content and focus, it is up to each DM/EM to determine what sort of event that want to run. As long as it fits the setting and in line with our guidelines for events, we will not dictate what they can do (although EMs have to go through approval for their events so we do dictate what they cannot do).

  • Large overall server plot is a must
As mentioned we have largely failed on this when we tried it, and will try and kickstart it. We could possibly bring in EMs here to help, although that would then exclude their characters from taking part in the plot. Something we can consider anyway.

Category: General RP

  • Lack of opposition plays an important role
  • PC against NPCS is stress-free; PC against PC is a headache
Some people seek out conflict, but they are sometimes asses about it. Some people are scared to cause conflict, so sit nicely chatting to the LG Paladin when they are playing a Blackguard. It is understandable to a certain extent. Opposition can come out via events, but at the end of the day, events are just that, they happen and are over. I presume people were more discussing the need for more persistent opposition. Faction play can come into effect here. If you are a Doomguard then you are going to have a natural animosity towards Harmonium and vice versa, but it doesn’t have to be faction related, you can always find ways to have a conflict if you look, and by using tells to the other players involved, you can avoid OOC drama from IC conflict.

We have rules about PvP for a reason though. We don’t want this server to become a PvP server. There are plenty of servers that cater to that where you will find lots of optimized builds (many Halflings because of their +1 to hit, which is oh so critical in overcoming the insane ACs on the other power builders), so feel free to play on such as server if that is your thing.

The PvP via consent only rule is mainly there to protect people who want to RP and not be intimidated just because someone has a level 30 character. Many of the points raised in this thread as a reason for negativity relate to intimidation by level 30 chars or established characters. Making PvP easier would only cause further issues here.

  • SCoD RP is too self-indulgent
  • Generally misanthropic PCs
We can’t really help with the self-indulgence or misanthropy… if that is how people roll, we can’t start instructing them how their characters should behave, as long as it is within the rules.

  • People don't join factions because they get nothing out of it.
This is a problem with player attitude more than anything. Why should you get something out of it? People join factions because their character’s beliefs match that of the faction. When we initially discussed the faction badge system we were very keen on avoiding mechanical benefits for faction members.

We do not want to encourage builds which rely on being a member of a faction for additional benefit.

What you can get out of being a faction member is a framework for your RP, and ultimately, if you gain promotions, the ability to command lower level faction members (if you can find any) and make quests for them.

For the moment though we have agreed to stop beating the dead horse of factions and drop pushing them and let people play faction members if they want. As mentioned earlier, we will keep thinking of ways to improve things though, and input is appreciated.

Category: Community members: Players, Ems, and DMs

  • Too many epics scare newbies off; make a new PC to interact with newbies
  • Players ignore events
  • Too many big egos
  • Nothing for maxed out characters to do
  • More people should delevel to give their PCs something to do and to help newbies
  • Let your big hero go and play a quivering clueless.
  • People need change
The relevelling or starting a new character is a nice idea to help newcomers, or even older players who just cant seem to get a character levelled up. Also gives you something to do if you don’t know what to do with your maxed out character and should solve ego problems.

And yes, people need change but the DM team (and even EMs included) cannot do all this by themselves to provide enough entertainment for all the people all of the time, which is why you have to make your own fun a lot of the time.

  • People need goals and should not have to make them themselves
Perhaps the most amusing point made. You are role playing a character. That character should come with their own goals and objectives. Why did they come to Sigil? Or were they born here? What do they want to achieve in life?

DMs/EMs can only provide events for characters, we cannot define how they should react in relation to those events.

Category: Attitude

  • Be more OOCly welcoming
  • Stop being complete dicks to newcomers.
  • People don't start new groups because they get squeezed out mafia-style.
No disagreement from DM side. We understand players also agree. If you are subjected to any OOC negativity or find you are having problems starting a new group because others are squeezing you, speak to a DM and we can mediate.

Category: Other

  • NWN2 is a terrible game
  • The game is old
*shrugs* Yes, we know this, but this is the engine we have built the server on. If you don’t like it, go play another game.

  • Grandfathered items
There should be no grandfathered items on the server. Either they are legal or illegal. Illegal items (which are not caught by our illegal item script) we remove/replace when we discover them. Items which DMs in the past have given out items against our DM reward guidelines also need to be removed replaced.
Therefore, if you have such an item, its not a good idea to boast about it :P

  • Players should do everything (because DMs are lazy/unwilling)/DMs should do everything (because players are lazy/unwilling)
Ok, this one wasn’t stated directly (although practically so), but came through in several posts and will serve nicely as a final point. This is absolutely not the case. The original post about what was the problem was identifying an issue that some (not all, just some) players were feeling about lack of motivation and that the finger was being pointed at the community as a whole, regardless of role.

Everyone who plays on the server is responsible for what happens to this server. If you are sitting and complaining about how nothing happens then do something about it, even if it means taking a break, because sitting and whining isn’t going to help, it’s just going to spread negativity. Or better still, make realistic and constructive suggestions on how to improve things.

Bottom line: The DM team does not have all the answers on how to improve things, but we will listen to ideas, even if we decide that it’s not a good idea, we value (constructive) input. :respect:

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Ok, that's it, and again, sorry for it being so long. It is clear we can't/won't do everything people have suggested, but there were one or two things that came out that we can act upon, and when i say "we" i mean all of us. :beer:
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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cryptc
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Quote:
 
Persistent housing for guilds deserves special attention. It has (apparently) been stated before that we would be willing to add, if someone was willing to make the areas. This means you who are wanting the housing. If you don't have the skills to make good quality areas, then you will have to recruit someone who does. Any such areas would have to follow our build guidelines - Ceremorph can provide more information to anyone wanting to try their hand.


Just a minor addendum; it would generally be assumed that such areas would be added for groups, not "The house of Dr. McAwesomecharacter"
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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lorgin_2003
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i'd like to touch on the newer player/older player conflict. shouldn't it matter who actually begins the conflict? obviously, an established character shouldn't go around slapping around newer players just because he/she can. that's just being a bully. but if a new character decides to do something similar to an established character, should that older character be expected to just roll over and take it? if the older character has put in the time and effort to gather the resources, and has no intentions of actually starting any static, should that older character really have to cater to the ego of a newer player/character by allowing themselves pushed around simply because they've been around longer?
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Rust
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Agent of Chaos
Dungeon Master (Emeritus)
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Category: Other
NWN2 is a terrible game
The game is old


Maybe so, but to -me- it's the Community. I'd like to say, hey, got a RPG game (multi or co-op), let's try it out, etc, etc.

NOT a fan of MMO, but I might try Guild Wars . . when I get the dosh . . .


EDIT: hehe, I like that avatar, Logrin. I didn't see as much of Invader Zim as I'd liked, but those I did were great.
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Agony_Aunt
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lorgin_2003,Aug 7 2012
09:48 AM
i'd like to touch on the newer player/older player conflict. shouldn't it matter who actually begins the conflict? obviously, an established character shouldn't go around slapping around newer players just because he/she can. that's just being a bully. but if a new character decides to do something similar to an established character, should that older character be expected to just roll over and take it? if the older character has put in the time and effort to gather the resources, and has no intentions of actually starting any static, should that older character really have to cater to the ego of a newer player/character by allowing themselves pushed around simply because they've been around longer?

Character duration on the server doesn't come into it. You can have characters who have been around a long time who are insecure, weak, pacifistic. And the new character (despite being low level) could be someone who is strong, used to pushing people around, extrudes an aura of confidence, etc.

Its not like if you are stood at the bar and someone comes up to you and starts some aggro you can think "hey, this person is a n00b, they must be weak." Let RP be your guide, not what you know about them OOCly.

So, sure, you have a level 30 who have faced down mighty demons and devils, been on quests to do X, Y, and Z, but that guy who is annoying you may just be a character who eats level 30 adventurers for breakfast. Caution when dealing with unknown planars is advised. ;)

And remember, IC conflict doesn't always end up in combat. What always amazes me is when players who are involved in conflict so quickly throw out a tell of "Permission for PVP?". I'm often like "Eh? WTF? I'm trying to RP conflict here, why do we need to do PvP?", and even more strange, getting into combat means you may lose and die... really... think about it. How eager some people are to get into PvP but just don't consider the consequences of death. How about RPing that? There may not always be someone around who can resurrect you, or maybe if you are PvP in the Abyss, your soul will be caught by a demon and you will spend eternity in a soul gem or be transformed into a manes/larvae/etc.

As for who started a conflict, remember if you are in a situation where there is conflict, its a good idea to take screenshots. Otherwise if you need a DM to mediate it just ends up in a he started it, no he started it situation. Screenies help us resolve these issues. But best of all, just make sure you and the other player are cool with the direction of the RP, and if you feel uncomfortable and the other player does not accept it, politely excuse yourself from the situation.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Darker_Thought
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The Idea for Guild Houses are an exellent idea! :)

My own thoughts on such would be perhaps making it a demand to as you stated create the area yourself or ask for somone to make it for you. Then Set out some restrictions for how big that area is...i mean 10 people living in a Castle isn't that realistic. xD

So heres my suggestion or humnle opinion:

1. Atleast 8 or 10 *Active* people in the "group/Guild" to Ensure the Guild are is well used.
2. The area being restricted to a certian ammount of placebles, or atleast effects and space. (Also i think i have the script of a "Key" giving item somewhere on my computer if you not already have a script for an item(Ring)) that gives Keys when used on others), which myself find very usefull to "Rp handing out a key".

Otherwise overall it's nice to see that initiative on the players thoughts that have ben presented here on the server has ben answered, and though as have ben said. Nwn 2 is an old game...But it still has some firepower in it yet to give and most important of al...Interested Players ^_^
Characters:
*Narissa V'xtre (Tiefling Mage and Leader of "The S'jet Organisation)
*Bael'phegora(Sabel) (Seer of the Blooded Lotus)
*Kira (Fiendish Dark Elf / Astral traveler)
*Naomi Auroras(Human Holy Warrior)

Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you.
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Agony_Aunt
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Darker_Thought,Aug 7 2012
10:30 AM
So heres my suggestion or humnle opinion:

1. Atleast 8 or 10 *Active* people in the "group/Guild" to Ensure the Guild are is well used.
2. The area being restricted to a certian ammount of placebles, effects and space. (Also i think i have the script of a "Key" giving item somewhere on my computer if you not already have a script for an item(Ring)) that gives Keys when used on others), which myself find very usefull to "Rp handing out a key".

1) We would judge each case based on merit, but the main thing is building the actual area, yeah, but no houses for single people.

2) As stated Cere would give guidelines to anyone wanting to build. But keys... i think we would be against that. No lockable RP areas on the server outside the cells.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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cryptc
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Having area be private with keys is possibility depending on how private the guild house needs to be (for a Mage Guild for instance we'd not have it be locked up from visitors)
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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Agony_Aunt
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cryptc,Aug 7 2012
11:02 AM
Having area be private with keys is possibility depending on how private the guild house needs to be (for a Mage Guild for instance we'd not have it be locked up from visitors)

I stand corrected :D
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Hydra
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For the moment though we have agreed to stop beating the dead horse of factions and drop pushing them and let people play faction members if they want.


Well that's fine if you do not push factions any more into players (thought I never felt it was the case), yet I do hope they'll still retain their actual IC importance and not become shades no ones take in account. Because if, so its quite an immersion killer, it'll not be Sigil any more.

For the rest : :beer: :clap:
- Kala Ta'Kan : Factor of the Beleivers of the Source
- Ash (Kazuko Yudeoshi)
- Safana Washedan
- and many other alts.
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Agony_Aunt
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Hydra,Aug 7 2012
11:55 AM
Well that's fine if you do not push factions any more into players (thought I never felt it was the case), yet I do hope they'll still retain their actual IC importance and not become shades no ones take in account. Because if, so its quite an immersion killer, it'll not be Sigil any more.

Absoloutely, Factions remain an important part of Sigil. All we were saying is that current efforts to promote faction based RP on the server, while in some areas have had success, in other areas have not done too well.

As noted, we will seek a better solution to the faction point system and consider if there is anything else we can do to interest people in factions. Can't promise success though. The most success with faction based RP has come from players themselves, not due to anything the DMs have done (just my opinion).
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Ceremorph
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(Copying this into its own thread; please post responses there)

Okay, so since I've been volunteered (thanks Agony!) to be the point person on the guildhouse idea, let me throw out a few things that I believe we should see before moving on the issue.

What is your guild? "Misty and Kelli's Guild of Horny Tieflings" ain't gonna cut it. Is there a reason for them being together, and moreso is there a reason they need their own place? For instance, a group of demon worshippers would not really need their own place, as the Temple of the Abyss suffices for such a thing.

Who is in your guild? I like Darker Thought's concept of having a large group of people; we don't want to grow the server area list for every couple of people who want their secret hideout, and I also don't want people to start looking at these potential guildhouses as "proof my character is awesome".

How does your guild fit into Sigil? Are they something unique, or should they be tied to something already in place? The "We Break Things Club" would make far more sense as Doomguards, while "Marvin's Melancholy Mopers" sound like Bleakers to me.

WHY does your guild need its own place? This is really the big one to me; if it's goig to lead to interesting RP, and even moreso involve people who aren't part of the orignal group who put it together, it's going to be considerably more interesting to me.

And finally, the "key" issue. On other servers, I found that groups of friends who had an area they could lock to exclude others from tended to wind up spending tons of time in that area. Could be ERP, could be sneaky stuff, but nobody wants to log on to the server, see that there's twenty people on... and then discover eighteen of them are locked up inside "Bobby's Barbarian Club". This is especially significant with the thought of new players who would likely see that and leave, never to return. I would personally need an extremely good reason to allow this.

Now, I'm also going to state one thing here. I am NOT going to be the only decider on this idea. Guilds are going to be considered in the same was that special race requests are: discussion by the DM team as a group.

Oh, and just a reminder: don't ask me to build your guildhouse. Ain't gonna happen.
We rode on the winds of the rising storm,
We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
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Agony_Aunt
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Ceremorph,Aug 8 2012
12:55 AM
Okay, so since I've been volunteered (thanks Agony!) to be the point person on the guildhouse idea, let me throw out a few things that I believe we should see before moving on the issue.

Cere... this is a stick -> ======= :( <- this is you.

You got the wrong end of it. :lol:

I meant you can issue people the actual build (ie: toolset) guidelines. You know, our guidelines on area sizes, lighting, environmental vs placeables, etc.

Unless you want me advising people on it? :unsure:
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Cadence
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Dungeon Master
lorgin_2003,Aug 7 2012
05:48 AM
i'd like to touch on the newer player/older player conflict.  shouldn't it matter who actually begins the conflict?  obviously, an established character shouldn't go around slapping around newer players just because he/she can.  that's just being a bully.  but if a new character decides to do something similar to an established character, should that older character be expected to just roll over and take it?  if the older character has put in the time and effort to gather the resources, and has no intentions of actually starting any static, should that older character really have to cater to the ego of a newer player/character by allowing themselves pushed around simply because they've been around longer?


Shouldn't it matter who actually begins the conflict? That depends on whether the goal is to RP, or of the goal is to win.

Levels, items, and skill rolls shouldn't factor much into it if both sides are willing to RP (instead of trying to 'win' - in which case, levels, items, and opposed skill rolls are the only thing that matter).

If someone's just looking to PvP their powerbuild or test out their 93 Move silently score, then I'd rather not start a conflict with them as a low level- not much but mechanics and rolls will come out of it. It's quite a different story once 'winning' is not the objective.
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