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| My First Raw Build! | |
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| Topic Started: Jun 16 2013, 03:38 PM (621 Views) | |
| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 16 2013, 06:30 PM Post #16 |
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well precise strike is great for small races that wield short sword with two hands, it becomes unexpectedly great for high damage builds on them. But yeah, for the most parts it's not worth it unfortunately. And I've seen a couple very effective single weapon duelist builds defeat more superior other types of builds. A melee non-caster without hiding capability is the hardest thing to really do in NWN2 efficiently. They almost solely be tied to heavy armor shield users since that's the easy way to gain defensive capabilities and still retain okay damage, not to mention it allows a great adjusting to different combats with removing shield to more damage especially with power attack and combat expertise then going to full defense to survival with shield... however dualwielders and light armor users can't do this nearly as well... usually they should either rely on mobility or ability to hide, yet this build kinda lacks both. The issue however I think is not per say in the build as much as the idea, it's trying to master too many things alone. Number of attacks, critical fidelity, damage, AB, AC, parry, crafting... it's a lot of things for single build to do adequately alone, especially a non-caster, non-hider. You might want to take one of the things away at the very least and they can master the things far better. My initial suggestion would actually be in the number of attacks department or the criticals. I think you can master things far better with light armor, heavy shield and/or single weapon duelist combos. *edit* Or with bard levels you can get a lot of benefit through magic and songs to compensate. |
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| Goatrider | Jun 16 2013, 06:34 PM Post #17 |
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Blood
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Bards get so many little things that add up ridiculously. And in epic levels they get Song/Hymn of Requiem. Dagger-dexer is still going to suck without sneak attack, but when you can give yourself +5 AB/Damage from Inspire Courage, +4 from Greater Heroism, and +2 from Warcry it looks a little better. On top of that, high level bards can be practically untouchable with Displacement and Mirror Image, Curse Song lowering enemy AB, and so on and so forth. |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 16 2013, 10:56 PM Post #18 |
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One of the odd builds that I haven't yet made in SCoD (though thought of making) is a fighter 10/swashbuckler 3/stalwart defender 10/duelist 7 (or other variations, like fighter 12/swashbuckler 3/stalwart defender 10/invisible blade 5), it'll use con, dex and int mainly, though int and str can be kept split at relatively low (13/15) while constitution to 21 and dex otherwise as high as possible. The idea behind this build is wielding one weapon (can be changed to two weapons with IB easily) and using parry + AC + DR to fend off threats, tanky, but can do decent damage regardless. It was intended for a dwarf, but can work on most races really that don't penalize con, str, int or dex. And if you're against IB... consider it less a sneaky class and more of a bluff-type class since it's not about backstabbing as much as feinting, an aspect easily ignored too. |
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| Ceremorph | Jun 17 2013, 12:00 AM Post #19 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Can't see your original build, so just making a few points off of Goatrider's "fix".... 1. If you've got feint, taking some sneak damage is almost a requirement. If all you're getting is bleed damage out of it, it's not really all that great a feature. I appreciate wanting to have the fighter BAB, but you might be better served with ditching swashy, using fighter just to gain the necessary feats for WM, and taking a bunch of rogue levels just to get that automatic sneak damage. This would be especially great if you could make it to rogue 10 and get one of the rogue-specific bonus feats like improved evasion. 2. Lose the improved combat expertise. With the amount of attacks you have, epic weapon specialization is better to have (and remember that this extra damage multiplies on crits) if you stay fighter-y. 3. As someone else stated, you don't want your stats ending on even numbers, especially the ones that affect your build (dex and int). |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Powderhorn | Jun 17 2013, 12:09 AM Post #20 |
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Scharfschütze
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OK, this is an attempt to still do a two-weapon knife fighting build, but with more damage. I honestly cannot find a way to squeeze in two more feats to get Skill Focus: Craft Armor / Skill Focus: Craft Weapon. Powderhorn's Knife Fighter Mk. II |
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You would think rooting for Darwin in EMS would be tricky. It's not. | |
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| Powderhorn | Jun 17 2013, 12:10 AM Post #21 |
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Scharfschütze
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Sorry about that Ceremorph, I was trying to rebuild the build in a way that would work, so I dropped it off "public" while I was working on it. |
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You would think rooting for Darwin in EMS would be tricky. It's not. | |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 17 2013, 06:16 AM Post #22 |
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I tend to keep all my builds private most of the time since the comments section on that site tends to be atrocious, mostly since people tend to think every build is made for them, or that everyone should use the top 10 most optimal builds and still for some god forsaken reason they haven't added option to remove comments.One thing I notice is that you can loosen up from wisdom and put point or few to constitution, since you can easily get wisdom from items to grant the spell slots and it's not per say important stat. You could even manage with 9 wisdom, not saying that's as low as you should get as much as telling that +5 item would then set you to 14 which is enough to get the 4th level spells. And con can be a dump stat, despite comments, what it never is the main stat... usually it's at best auxilary stat unless you really want epic DR. Personally I'd perhaps lose the weaponmaster, I think it's hurting the general effort since it's very feat expensive. And those criticals won't be all that impressive, same goes for great cleaves, that only is useful if you can deal 50s damage toward the end and actually cleave things left and right, otherwise just normal cleave is enough and for that investing two feats sounds costly. But it doesn't hurt that much that you should absolutely change it either, they'll do their job and can be benefit, more benefit than some other choices? Perhaps not. AC will suffer in this build I'd guess, since you'll have to wear light or no armor for dualwielding, but dualwielding also means no shield with low-ish dexterity. And if you'll avoid investing in hide and move silently, you'll quickly find out that glass cannons while they kill enemies in a brief flurry, also eat damage like a sponge. Okay I'm starting to sound patronizing jerk, so I'm going to change tactic to expand to a more of a philosophy of making builds. There's three main things of consideration that you should try to get somewhat balanced on a warrior-type (and this is most definitely warrior) And those are: 1) Attack Bonus (35 and higher at the very least, for non-shield users higher is better. 40 is good and you can stop looking into it.) 2) Damage (you'll want to make either 30-40 a hit, or a lot of times 20 per round. 50 is good and you can stop looking into it.) 3) Armor Class (45 and higher with items or you'll suffer easily. 50 is good and you can stop looking into it) Technically anything else is a fluff, that means exact combat styles, crafting, critical fidelity etc. Those three stats are the only ones that matter for melee survival. Trying to get all of those tend to become the final deciding factor of the build. Once you have the minimal requirement of those fulfilled, you can start to add up to the build. Only times when you should deviate from those are with: Defense: Magic - since it can replace majority of those. Class Abilities - DRs, SD abilities, HiPS Feats - DRs, concealment, epic dodge, divine shield Offense: Magic - since it can replace damage sources. Class abilities - sneak attack Feats - EDM or Divine Magic with high charisma |
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| Powderhorn | Jun 17 2013, 01:15 PM Post #23 |
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Scharfschütze
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The reason I worried about the wisdom is because it seems that with the spell slots, you only get to assign them after you've rested, which means they're non-remembered, and then when you rest those slots go away... or maybe I'm just doing something wrong. I noticed Levria has one I can never seem to use because of a Wisdom bonus. As far as cleave and great cleave, I only took them as pre-requisites for overwhelming critical, and the power attack / improved power attack for the power attack favored enemy (outsiders). I had, honestly enough, thought that (in addition to bane of enemies) would be an overwhelming amount of damage on critical hits, and with a quarter of hits being criticals, I figured it'd be fine, however, I'm hearing that power attack doesn't work on knives, and somehow apparently heavy armor makes dual wielding impossible? (I'm not even sure what the mechanic is behind that, again, I'm fairly unfamiliar with 3.5) I figured the AC with a standard heavy armor setup would make it work, but, I guess I was wrong. I think, ultimately, what I'm hearing is that a toe-to-toe fighting type, a knife-wielding bananza, is impossible under 3.5. This makes me sad, but, at least it's established early on instead of halfway through. Unfortunately, that means I'll have to come up with another mechanical concept that's interesting. Ah well. Edit: Also, your version of "patronizing jerk" is very different from my own. Maybe to someone who knows 3.5 in and out like other people do, it would come off like that, but for me, who just kinda jumped into it a month ago, these are pearls of wisdom. |
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You would think rooting for Darwin in EMS would be tricky. It's not. | |
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| Goatrider | Jun 17 2013, 01:32 PM Post #24 |
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Blood
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Yeah, Power Attack doesn't wok with light weapons unless you're a halfling. Great Cleave, I'm told, is also a waste if you don't need it as a prerequisite, since it actually functions identically to Cleave in NWN2 (yay, more bugs!). Dual Wielding is pretty much restricted to light/no armor because you either need Ranger (only functions in light armor) or a lot of Dex (why wear armor with that much dex?). Your concept isn't impossible, it's just never going to be optimal, and commentary from the DB won't really help you since, as Mr. O pointed out, anything helpful will be drowned under a sea of jerks calling you an idiot or a troll. My advice would be to look in the DB a little more. Punch in the things you absolutely want in the DB, and search until you find something you think looks good and adjust for your preferences. The comments tend to be awful, but they can be used as a kind of litmus for viability. "lol troll build" means just move on, constructive criticisms mean it might just be viable. Complaints about blind fight, HiPS, and that sort of thing are just white noise. re: Wisdom. If you get wisdom from a temporary bonus it goes away, if it's from an item you never take off, you're golden. It's the same with every spellcaster, too. Also any shapechanging will mess up your spellbook. |
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| Agony_Aunt | Jun 17 2013, 04:58 PM Post #25 |
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Get a Life
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I'm pretty certain Great Cleave does work. |
| Stepped down as admin, but still lurking. | |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 17 2013, 05:41 PM Post #26 |
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Great cleave "works", but it seems to be a bit iffy... sometimes it works like charm, other times it seems to forget to do its trick. It becomes doubly so with supreme cleave I've noticed... sometimes you become a flurry of destruction wasting army of enemies in split second, other times it doesn't trigger, but I've identified most of the issue lies in striking distance since NPC seems to be able to hit tiny bit further than PCs and have the knowledge when they need to step closer while PC stands idly hoping auto-attack to do the trick. |
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Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 17 2013, 06:08 PM Post #27 |
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One build that can get you what you want without resolving to heavy armor: Ranger 21/swashbuckler 3/invisible blade 5/monk 1 To give the split on levels and their intended purpose without making the actual build for you: Ranger 21 - Bane of enemies and perfect two weapon fighting, this gives both the amount of attacks and some damage potential. Swashbuckler 3 - Free weapon finesse and damage from insightful strike Invisible Blade 5 - This class gives some AC, and is high BAB class as well as assists in the general idea with daggers and bleeding wounds. Monk 1 - Flurry of blows for moar attacks, and can put that wisdom to good use for even more AC. For stats you'll need average on str, int and wis... no more than 15 in the end in any. Only int should be 15 for maximum potential, but the other two wouldn't hurt to be that either. All of those three should be uneven and either 13 or 15. Dex will be where you'll get also AC, and primary AB source when it comes to stats so that's where to dump the main concentration in. Con and cha ain't important.. 9 con is enough on my opinion and cha is all RP amount. To give example starting stats: Str - 15 Dex - 16 (all level benefits here -> 23) Con - 9 Int - 15 Wis - 13 Cha - 8 That means in the end you'll get +10 to damage with +5 items (+5 str, +5 int), +18 to AC (+4 wis, +5 int, +9 dex) from stats alone which is pretty nice. Now the weakness of this build is that a lot of it relies on getting last levels of each class chosen, so you'll want to shape it so that last level or few will be IB levels since they are the least crucial parts of the build, nice additional stuff, but not important immediately. For the feats: Well freely you'll get the following -> Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, weapon finesse, toughness so those can be scratched from the list... For prequesites you'll need the following: |
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Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
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| ManyFaced | Jun 17 2013, 06:27 PM Post #28 |
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Choosy testers choose Jif.
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While I'll make a mockup build later... if you grab up swasbuckler, just leave STR at a default 6/8 and pick up epic precision. Epic precision stacks with Swashbuckler while overwriting your Str bonus, so the stat is rendered moot. For TWF characters, try to pick up a couple assassin levels or a SD level for HiPS. It's mostly used to disengage during combat and will make your life much, much, much easier. EDIT: Not epic precision, Combat Insight. Doh. |
| "Can everyone try just, reading what the DM writes? I think that'd be a good first step." | |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Jun 17 2013, 06:35 PM Post #29 |
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I've somewhat turned away of the combat insight for dual int benefit since it tends to become more expensive statwise and also spend an epic feat for relatively low gain, not to mention it tends to make early levels a lot more tolerable to have well rounded stats than gimp entirely until you get to arbitrary level. And I think HiPS was kinda a no-no due to two previous characters having it
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Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
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| Powderhorn | Jun 17 2013, 06:43 PM Post #30 |
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Scharfschütze
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I was actually working on another theoretical build but I had to deal with EMS type stuff. I was thinking shifting to one dagger, doing an INT build, 5 swash, 2 wiz, 10 duelist, 3 wiz, 10 eldritch knights, feats/skills were a WIP. Any thoughts on that? |
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You would think rooting for Darwin in EMS would be tricky. It's not. | |
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and still for some god forsaken reason they haven't added option to remove comments.

12:30 AM Jul 11