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Roleplaying Imprisonment/capturing
Topic Started: Aug 29 2013, 08:10 PM (1,680 Views)
Darkrob
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That's your solution? That's how you want to run an RP server?

Nice...

Play the forced RP or don't play at all.

Well done. That solves everything.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Mr_Otyugh
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I'm just going with the theme of "my way or highway" :P your single case where this happens is hardly a frequent one and if the fear of catching obvious psycopath makes you choose to not act against any criminal be it good RP or not, then it doesn't really matter much if you not play one or ignore all. Or change everything to suit you. ;)
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Darkrob
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Your rule excludes "special circumstances". Any criminal (no matter how poorly RP'd) can hide behind it. It does not allow for exceptions. I'm using the fringe example as the exception. Yes, it's a rare situation. One that almost never happens... but it is still covered by your rule.

Make room for exceptional situations. Then we can deal with exceptional situations seperately. Then the bulk of this issue goes away.

But it still doesn't deal with the Mercykiller issue. It will be the Harmonium characters leveling punishment... not the Red Death. Kinda cuts their balls off.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Midnight
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I very rarely post in the OOC sections of the forum but I have been following this and I think would will offer my opinion. Characters here are given a lot of freedom and I think the players and staff here do a lot to foster creative rp. Its why I like it here.

That being said I think we as players should accept that there are consequences to actions. To use myself as an example; if my Guvner character hands out a lot of tough sentences to Anarchists npcs and as a group the pc Anarchists decide to put a stop to this and some group of Anarchist assassins manage to hunt her down and kill her then I will be disappointed as I have spent a lot of time developing the character rping her building IC relationships climbing the faction ladder and grinding out levels. I will also accept that these are the IC consequences of my IC actions

On the same note if a character robs or attacks another pc (npcs are different) their player should accept that bad things including imprisonment may happen to that character as a result. If in doubt I find its always best to send a tell or a pm to the person playing the antagonist where the two of you work out what happens ahead of time what will happen and how much each party is willing to risk.

It might sound a little harsh but I think these kind of things should involve danger and if it seems too risky perhaps your character should plan things more carefully before doing something which should be dangerous.
Partial Character list:
Annia Jahram (Retired)
Jentia Snyden (Retired)
Rania Dias (Mercykiller Tracker)
Elliana Wettel (Godsman Smith)
Caterina Arnders (Fraternity Judge)
Emila Valios (Dustman Factor)

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cryptc
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Darkrob,Aug 30 2013
02:34 PM
What about my right to not have to deal with someone who suddenly decides to set off a bomb in the market for kicks?

This is truly the crux of the problem... and having been on receiving end of random-ish open bazaar lawbreaking, I know it happens, and it is usually spontaneous, and extremely idiotic of the character (and player) that does the crime

And aftermath of such random lawbreaking is equally uninteresting in every case (I remember I had to hold a trial once for one such incident, and I was extremely bored the entire time)

On the other hand is the intelligent villain/lawbreaker... the Marius or Phoenix type... which don't openly in bazaar in full view by half their own social circle randomly do something obviously needing punishment...

The first kind of villain is really the cases that I would like somehow to just go away... since they are just insultingly bad in any rp aspect... and the second kind of villain would generally never get in a situation where there is a big deal about resolutions, since the hero/villain should ideally been communicating for a good time and had good fun doing all the plotting up to that climax...

Unfortunately, there are two cases all too common where the wrong resolution type is picked for the villain... good intelligent villains getting immediately metagamed or just given no chance to continue their villainous deeds (and I mean while they are minor ones, not bomb in bazaar type), og oppositely stupid villains doing something stupid, and good rp'ers forced to make some sort of IC sense of it after...

I don't have an answer, but I felt the "bad guy" / "good guy" needed a bit more gradient in this discussion, since it feels like that is where the major disagreements actually lie...
"One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook
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Mr_Otyugh
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Darkrob,Aug 30 2013
06:09 PM
Your rule excludes "special circumstances". Any criminal (no matter how poorly RP'd) can hide behind it. It does not allow for exceptions. I'm using the fringe example as the exception. Yes, it's a rare situation. One that almost never happens... but it is still covered by your rule.

Make room for exceptional situations. Then we can deal with exceptional situations seperately. Then the bulk of this issue goes away.

But it still doesn't deal with the Mercykiller issue. It will be the Harmonium characters leveling punishment... not the Red Death. Kinda cuts their balls off.

Specifications are subject of interpretations always, I tend to rather deal with the heart of the matter. And if people understand the idea behind it, it really isn't much of an issue to manage to just settle with the other person. However those are matters where both sides have to be lenient, not just expect the other one to sit there and not play the game.

Also on the note of "bad players whimsical behavior" it bears noting that they can be member of any faction also. It doesn't mean all of them are villains, it's easy to toss people in prison with equally poor reasoning ;) which really makes the exception matter stem down to "idiots are exempts" which doesn't quite look good in the entire deal.

As for the Mercykillers... the thing is that they really are as a faction not a very player supportive. Nobody really wants to play a character in a prison. From a prison? Sure... but play in the prison, a place where nobody ever visits, especially since they never have a reason to do that. Or at best once per week if it happens to be say... a psycopath sage imprisoned for killing thirty, yet yield so much important knowledge that some may consult them occasionally. I actually like the faction, but they're not exactly something that's going to get all that much "customer"-traffic in any realistic stretch of imagination, not live anyway. Since if someone is sentenced to prison, I'd guess they're not going to log in since there's nobody there, it's going to be forum RP if anyone bothers.
Midnight,Aug 30 2013
06:33 PM
I very rarely post in the OOC sections of the forum but I have been following this and I think woild will offer my opinion.  Characters here are given a lot of freedom and I think the players and staff here do a lot to foster creative rp.  Its why I like it here.

That being said I think we as players should accept that there are consequences to actions.  To use myself as an example; if my Guvner character hands out a lot of tough sentences to Anarchists npcs and as a group the pc Anarchists decide to put a stop to this and some group of Anarchist assassins manage to hunt her down and kill her then I will be disapointed as I have spent a lot of time developing the character rping her building IC relationships climbing the faction ladder and grinding out levels.  I will also accept that these are the IC consequences of my IC actions

On the same note if a character robs or attacks another pc (npcs are different) their player should accept that bad things including imprisonment may happen to that character as a result.  If in doubt I find its always best to send a tell or a pm to the person playing the antagonist where the two of you work out what happens ahead of time what will happen and how much each party is willing to risk.

It might sound a little harsh but I think these kind of things should involve danger and if it seems too risky perhaps your character should plan things more carefully before doing something which should be dangerous.

The theory in this I agree with entirely, however the issue lies in the fact that the lawful character technically is in no danger ever or at the very least a bare minimal danger compared to a criminal/villain type.

A villain has to get a consent, then execute without being caught and defeat their target(s) hopefully without leaving any clues. Somehow ensure they aren't publicly known to be Evil McTyrant because of any weak clues people may find that includes half-dozen divinations or speaking with the victims. They also need to be personally involved in the entire matter to find information about their target and thus raise suspicions.

In comparison a guard or judge type character more or less just needs to hear accusations and bring them in, would the character resist then every would-be do-goodies will jump to the chance to be part of the system so technically they even don't need to have any real talent other than to say "You're under arrest" or "Can we talk in private?". Beyond that it's actually not all that much involvement to do stuff revolving around the case. Having actually played two different Hardheads it felt a lot like spoon feeding compared to having played Marius, Coristia, Hex or a number of other morally bankrupt types. Best yet is that nobody is actively hunting you as a Hardhead, they have no real reason to... you're the fellow on top of the legal foodchain after all. Oh and they don't even need the consent because it's considered practically BS to decline going with it, likely even a DM is going to be involved to get a permission to impose it on them :P

Then of course before any character gets a motivation to hunt down the Hardheads, Mercykillers or the Guvners they probably need to have been dealt with by the three, on other hand in that case they've likely already been captured and in that case it's the end already. The two aren't in the same situation by far, and it's really the reason why most villains end up being all words and no action... they've invested already a lot of time on the character and it doesn't take much effort to end all of that to begin with.
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Mr_Otyugh,Aug 30 2013
05:11 PM

The theory in this I agree with entirely, however the issue lies in the fact that the lawful character technically is in no danger ever or at the very least a bare minimal danger compared to a criminal/villain type.

A villain has to get a consent, then execute without being caught and defeat their target(s) hopefully without leaving any clues. Somehow ensure they aren't publicly known to be Evil McTyrant because of any weak clues people may find that includes half-dozen divinations or speaking with the victims. They also need to be personally involved in the entire matter to find information about their target and thus raise suspicions.

In comparison a guard or judge type character more or less just needs to hear accusations and bring them in, would the character resist then every would-be do-goodies will jump to the chance to be part of the system so technically they even don't need to have any real talent other than to say "You're under arrest" or "Can we talk in private?". Beyond that it's actually not all that much involvement to do stuff revolving around the case. Having actually played two different Hardheads it felt a lot like spoon feeding compared to having played Marius, Coristia, Hex or a number of other morally bankrupt types. Best yet is that nobody is actively hunting you as a Hardhead, they have no real reason to... you're the fellow on top of the legal foodchain after all. Oh and they don't even need the consent because it's considered practically BS to decline going with it, likely even a



DM is going to be involved to get a permission to impose it on them :P

Then of course before any character gets a motivation to hunt down the Hardheads, Mercykillers or the Guvners they probably need to have been dealt with by the three, on other hand in that case they've likely already been captured and in that case it's the end already. The two aren't in the same situation by far, and it's really the reason why most villains end up being all words and no action... they've invested already a lot of time on the character and it doesn't take much effort to end all of that to begin with.

I disagree. I think it is just as easy for the Anarchist pcs in your example to target a triad pc as vice versa. If only because the triad pcs must act publicly and their identities are known where as no one knows ic who the Anarchists are so they are very difficult to act against.

This is quite a specific example and I wish to apply my point more generally. If I do something that could lead to my character becoming imprisoned I should accept that my character becoming imprisoned and everything that goes with it are the consequences of my actions. It would be unfair to impose a penalty on the player of the character who imprisons (or kills maims or tortures mine for that matter) simply for playing their character in an rp that I have initiated.

To use an example lets say my dustman character murders an npc and Robs (hope you don't mind me using you as an example) sees it and after a brief bit of pvp or rped combat he apprehends her and she is arrested. Is it then fair that he is unable to carry on with his rp? What if for example I am unavailable for the next few days should he have to wait because he reacted to something I did? I don't think he should. I think that if your character gets captured for something they have done you should face up to consequences and play an alt for a bit.

I think overall most of the players here are a mature lot. Most captors will understand the situation most captives are in and will act accordingly.
Partial Character list:
Annia Jahram (Retired)
Jentia Snyden (Retired)
Rania Dias (Mercykiller Tracker)
Elliana Wettel (Godsman Smith)
Caterina Arnders (Fraternity Judge)
Emila Valios (Dustman Factor)

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Mr_Otyugh
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Anyone can attack anyone, definitely... but there's no motive most of the time. And often there's better targets than some regular guard in the streets. Honestly most of my villains thinks some regular Hardhead isn't worth their time since it doesn't do anything iconic or really achieve anything... there's like bazillion of them and it only leaves clues behind that could lead to her/him. Yet the lawful only have one motive, capture the bad guys (well technically criminals if being pedantic... good would be more about the badguys business).

And as has been mentioned quite a few times already, details can be negotiated between the two. I'm pretty confident the both will rather want to co-operate to find a quick resolution and good story rather than spend X amount of time not logging in together :P

Regarding the level of maturity, now this is a slippery slope since if I disagree with it, it's like telling that I don't trust the players. However evidently I don't or I wouldn't have seen it necessary to issue such a rule, and so far this thread isn't quite building me with confidence. I've had to deal with forgotten prisoners many times enough to know where it leads, and quite frankly those are most of the characters taken to prison rather than cases dealt with right away.

I've also played a character that has been kidnapped and kept in captivity tied for couple of weeks, that time I really couldn't have cared less since I hardly played that character anyway... but if it actually was a character I wanted to play? Yeah, no thanks. I also quit playing that character soon after. My experience tells that it's better to trust in necessity of negotiation to keep it tolerable for both sides rather than hope that the other side cares or even makes a gesture to consider it.

To me it's a matter "Do to others what you'd wish to be done to you." and if you don't want to not play, then it means others probably want to avoid that too. It's escapism not just to you, but to the other players as well. It isn't just favorite character to you, but it might very well be their only character.
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Mr_Otyugh,Aug 30 2013
06:36 PM
Anyone can attack anyone, definitely... but there's no motive most of the time. And often there's better targets than some regular guard in the streets. Honestly most of my villains thinks some regular Hardhead isn't worth their time since it doesn't do anything iconic or really achieve anything... there's like bazillion of them and it only leaves clues behind that could lead to her/him. Yet the lawful only have one motive, capture the bad guys (well technically criminals if being pedantic... good would be more about the badguys business).

And as has been mentioned quite a few times already, details can be negotiated between the two. I'm pretty confident the both will rather want to co-operate to find a quick resolution and good story rather than spend X amount of time not logging in together :P

Regarding the level of maturity, now this is a slippery slope since if I disagree with it, it's like telling that I don't trust the players. However evidently I don't or I wouldn't have seen it necessary to issue such a rule, and so far this thread isn't quite building me with confidence. I've had to deal with forgotten prisoners many times enough to know where it leads, and quite frankly those are most of the characters taken to prison rather than cases dealt with right away.

I've also played a character that has been kidnapped and kept in captivity tied for couple of weeks, that time I really couldn't have cared less since I hardly played that character anyway... but if it actually was a character I wanted to play? Yeah, no thanks. I also quit playing that character soon after. My experience tells that it's better to trust in necessity of negotiation to keep it tolerable for both sides rather than hope that the other side cares or even makes a gesture to consider it.

To me it's a matter "Do to others what you'd wish to be done to you." and if you don't want to not play, then it means others probably want to avoid that too. It's escapism not just to you, but to the other players as well. It isn't just favorite character to you, but it might very well be their only character.

I think the player characters who are part of lawful factions are more than just random henchmen, they are pcs after all. And that means they present themselves as targets so they are more at risk.

As for someones only character being unavailable that works both ways. If a player playing a Harmonium pc captures someone and that Harmonium character is their only pc they cannot play them until their captive is dealt with.

Now if that takes sometime perhaps they have arrested someone for something serious and it will require a trial to be organized they now must wait for that without a character to play whilst the player of their captive is free to play any alts they have. All the player of the captor is guilty of is playing their character.

I know this rule is implemented to treat everyone equally but I don't think it does. It gives a huge advantage to people who instigate things (which is good don't get me wrong) but it penalizes people who react to them, which will just result in people being ignored.
Partial Character list:
Annia Jahram (Retired)
Jentia Snyden (Retired)
Rania Dias (Mercykiller Tracker)
Elliana Wettel (Godsman Smith)
Caterina Arnders (Fraternity Judge)
Emila Valios (Dustman Factor)

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What about my right to not have to deal with someone who suddenly decides to set off a bomb in the market for kicks? Don't I have a right to continue playing my character as I might currently be doing at the time (and as a proper Harmonium character)?


So, you are playing a Harmonium character, but don't want to deal with people setting bombs off in the Bazaar?

Quote:
 
Way I see it, I have two choices.


Go on...

Quote:
 
1: Play the Harmonium and arrest the criminal (risking temporary access to my character). Forced to lose access (being punished) for reacting in a proper RP way to the actions of an individual who "did not ask to include me".


Hmm... let me see. Either the other guy is being an OOC jerk, in which case you are free to ignore his RP, take a screenshot, and report it to DMs.

Or... *drum roll*

Take the proper IC reaction, arrest him, take him to the barracks... and please stop me since i did already post this suggestion at least once.... talk to him as a fellow player and find a quick resolution to the arrest situation. Wham, bam, thank you mam, resolved in under 30 mins and back at Khazeet's drinking before anyone realizes you've been gone.

The rule defined by Mr_O only means your character is restricted if you want to RP the interrogation, court case, etc. in which case you are the one binding you character!

If instead you want to deal with it quickly, then that option remains open as long as the other player isn't being a jerk about things... in which case, involve a DM.

Can you see any situations where following the new rule and applying some common sense will cause problems? If so, please, do outline the scenario.
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Mr_Otyugh
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#Midnight;

Exactly, it works both ways. The thing is... my experience with villains on this side has actually been more positive. Usually kidnappings take that one day and you're free to go on, they tend to be a lot more lenient and understanding while in contrast if you're captured by law then you're expected to sit through punishment without a complaint. I'm not sure if that's an OOC belief of "good always triumphs" that comes out subconsciously or something else, but to me it's just a shame... because a lot of the villains actually have made things quite interesting and I feel like there's absolutely nothing on the other side of the law.

It really feels like being punished OOC to get placed in prison by a lawful person, yet often rewarding to being targeted by a villain. And that is a bizarre thing, since villains more or less gives you guarantee that you're going to be alright, lets just have some fun. But I've almost never got the same wibe from the other side of spectrum, it just tends to be a closure to story type deal or cheesy escape from prison Mk Umpteenth.

What can a villain do? Cut your limbs, torture you, kill you? All of that is really solvable by one spell or another :P but there's no remove bars, protection from accusations, nor a conjure convenient plot twist. A lawful character practically has everyone as allies, except the niche 2-3 guys that might actually think a random psycopath is awesome. And the random psycopath is really alone more or less since they can't talk about it to anyone since more or less everyone will spill the beans and end it before anything began.

There's reason I have barely bothered to even try playing a villain in the past year, and it's because that is a load of work for no reward and you'll never get any protection other than what you'll invent to yourself, even more fun is that other villains will likely be your downfall if you make the mistake of trying to get to work with them. All of the work crowned by any just made character or summoned Hardhead or anyone else intended to get the villain just walking you to the Barracks and... well is there anything else? Everyone like a hivemind will consider they are the villain because some guy tells they are whether or not they have any proofs to begin with.

And regarding Harmonium/Guvner/Mercykiller PCs. Most popular reason why not to go after them? The same as any criminal generally not targetting the people actively trying to catch them :P too dangerous when there are folks that don't actively train to catch your kind of people. Also if it's ideological goal, it might not be about random murder as much as achieving in a goal without psycopathic murdering of everyone. It's not per say war between the two sides as much as cat and mouse, one doing their thing while the other trying to catch them.
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Darkrob
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Quote:
 
Take the proper IC reaction, arrest him, take him to the barracks... and please stop me since i did already post this suggestion at least once.... talk to him as a fellow player and find a quick resolution to the arrest situation. Wham, bam, thank you mam, resolved in under 30 mins and back at Khazeet's drinking before anyone realizes you've been gone.


A quick resolution? The scenario I used told of setting a BOMB off in the MARKET. A vastly crowded PUBLIC area full of CIVILIAN shoppers and FAMILIES. In what universe can that be settled in a matter of minutes with the terrorist merrilly going on his way? There are more people than just the PC's in the market. Dozens of civilians would die. That's a capital offence... not a fine offence.

Seriously? You want to exonerate those types of criminals with a sever talking to and pat on the head? Really?

Not in my RP world, thank you very much. That character, in that situation, deserves nothing short of incarceration pending trial. Bottom line. The rule does not allow exceptions for such things.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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Mr_Otyugh
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To be fair, those civilians might be just conveniently made up to justify holding them longer while they may've been under presumption to just do so against the limited number of people. I think it's unfair to make up evidences based on unclear perception unless the other side agrees to accusation. Kinda like it's easy to make up that a bolt shot by Hardhead at the assaillant yet misses, however accidentally hits Missus Jude the mother of three while their children are watching :P
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Midnight
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I think the big difference is a villian is going to pick a victim they are the ones who instigated a captive situation that was their choice.

On the other hand a character from the triad (I'm not going to call them the good guys because I never really though of them as such) has to react to a crime. They can't really ignore it and remain ic.

It seems to me they are being punished for playing their character correctly. That can't be right can it?
Partial Character list:
Annia Jahram (Retired)
Jentia Snyden (Retired)
Rania Dias (Mercykiller Tracker)
Elliana Wettel (Godsman Smith)
Caterina Arnders (Fraternity Judge)
Emila Valios (Dustman Factor)

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Darkrob
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Ahhh... so the city really is just an empty void until you need the "unseen" NPC's... gotcha. Good to know.

C'mon... let's be realistic here. The city has over a quarter million people in it. The Market is ALWAYS a busy place (considering all the literature I've read on it). Saying no one is there so "I didn't hurt no one" is nothing short of a sad cop out.

The city lives on around our characters whether we see them or not. The market, along with the Inn (and most popular public places) should always be considered teeming with activity.
Charles Goodman - owner of The Consortium and Chairman of the Syndicate - Indep and Merkhant
Daniela Nokomis- "The Enclave" - Vampiress, The woman in White, Soul Stealer, Merchant
Garen Seph - Fraternity of Order B3

"You may think you have us surrounded, but in reality you have simply put us in a target rich environment."
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