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| Special Races: Bugs | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 7 2014, 01:37 PM (4,383 Views) | |
| SigTerm | Aug 3 2014, 12:13 AM Post #256 |
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A question... shouldn't races with very high ecl have bonus to BAB (and optionally HP) at level 1? Erinyes, for example, is supposed to start with +9 BAB (which would give them 2 attacks per round) and 9d8+45 hitpoints. I'm asking it because fighting with low hitpoints and one attack per round with ecl+8 feels somewhat strange. Bonuses to strength and damage reduction help a lot, of course, and race is already playable, but still, it feels a bit weird. Also, it would be nice to have polymorphing ability for succubus. They are supposed to be able to take humanoid form for unlimited duration, so it would help if those were accessible. |
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| Tomekk | Aug 3 2014, 12:15 AM Post #257 |
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Dark Soul
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You don't get the racial Hit dice which gives you those stats. Would you sacrifice 9 of your levels to be Outsider only, then start building classes? Also, you only count as ECL 4-5 tops, not 9, so its bearable with a party. |
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"From the realms below we ride, And in terror they run and hide, From the shadows of old we rise, Awakened, from the dark! Over the ancient ruins we fly, Where the old kings go to die, And the new kingdoms rising high, Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!" | |
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| SigTerm | Aug 3 2014, 01:44 AM Post #258 |
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It is 8 levels, not nine. By playing erinyes you already sacrifice first levels, because class is ecl+8, so you will ever reach level 22. Stats seems to be taken from source books, along with ecl. However, it would be nice to understand the logic here. I.e. ... if stats are taken from source books, then why there's no extra BAB from source books. And if stats are not taken from source books, then where do they come from... Or did adding race go like this: 1. Take monster from books. 2. Delevel to 1 HD and strip most feats. 3. Add it as playable race in this state. Just trying to understand the logic... |
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| Ninefingers | Aug 3 2014, 02:20 AM Post #259 |
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Greybeard
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The BAB and HP come from racial Hit Dice, ie Outsider levels. Outsider levels are nice, but they provide nothing but the basics. No bonus feats, no class features, nothing fun. So you're spared the need to take those Outsider levels, and instead you get to take class levels. That's the underlying logic. |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 3 2014, 02:36 AM Post #260 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Back when we had the slow SR request system, that was actually how it was run (at least during the time I was in charge of it). For erinyes, for example, I would generally force people to take those first Outsider levels upon character creation. They're full BAB and high on all three saves, but there's no special bonuses otherwise. The ECL is based entirely upon the race's innate features, such as natural armor, immunities, that lovely +10 str/dex/cha, and magical powers. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| A. Thereal | Aug 3 2014, 03:36 AM Post #261 |
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Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
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Just to be clear here, the question being asked is why are high ECL races forced to sacrifice HP and BAB, which is a valid question. For example: It's being suggested that a succubus level 23 +7ECL is simpler and better, except that this character only ever gains 23 levels worth of HP and BAB. Alternatively (and correctly, I might add) a succubus would actually be 23 class levels and then 7 monster levels, totaling 30 levels of HP and BAB. And to further make this clear, ECL stands for Effective Character Level, which means that a succubus level 1 is effectively an 8th level character which started with the feats from level 1, 3, and 6, the stat bonuses from levels 4 and 8, and the skill rank maximum of an 8th level character. ECL has never been a level substitute, high ECL races have never suffered lower HP, BAB, or fewer feats than characters of the same level. But it's pretty much impossible to implement this correctly unless they go back to the old Special Race Request format. The only thing I can suggest is lowering the ECLs of these races in acknowledgement that they are taking a serious hit (despite racial bonuses and abilities) in the numbers they're actually supposed to have by ECL 30. EDIT: Oh, and high ECL races on SCoD aren't completely unfair. SCoD executes ECL backwards, meaning that they have a level cap, instead of a level adjustment. A level 1 succubus should require 8,000 XP to reach level 2. Instead they count as level one and only require 1,000 XP. This is kind of a trade off. |
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NERO URBANE Detective & Cheese Monger SERRADHE Personal Counselor & Exhibitionist | |
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| Tomekk | Aug 3 2014, 08:56 AM Post #262 |
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Dark Soul
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Whilst my view is that special races should end up about on par with 0-ECL races at their max. level ( as in having comparable AC, saves, HP, etc. ) you can't exactly balance something like erinyes like that when they have a net stat gain of ~52 without nerfing their stats. Giving special races racial levels AND class levels to let them total 30 HD is also broken, for very obvious reasons... the only fine line in my opinion is adjusting the LA until you get them to be on par with regular races without having super cheesy EDM/Weapon Master builds; perhaps nerfing a few things along the way, because more levels is always better. |
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"From the realms below we ride, And in terror they run and hide, From the shadows of old we rise, Awakened, from the dark! Over the ancient ruins we fly, Where the old kings go to die, And the new kingdoms rising high, Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!" | |
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| Gitrodamus | Aug 3 2014, 11:37 AM Post #263 |
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It's probably me who's misunderstood the way ECL works, but I'm putting this here in case there's something funky. I just rolled a fire giant even after the whopping +10 ECL, did the obsidian quest and got a not-so-whopping 20xp for it. I looked at the Experience & Level Related Alterations -topic and even though it only lists the amount of xp gained up to ECL +8, which is 90%, I'd wager the percentage for +10 ECL would be around 90-80%? Critter xp is likewise low, at lvl 1 + ECL bugbear elites in Undersigil give me 20xp as well, everything below that is significantly less. Is this working as intended or acting somehow in reverse to how it's supposed to work? With basic math I can deduce that I got 20% of the obsidian quest reward, which for a non-ECL race is 100xp. |
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| Tomekk | Aug 3 2014, 12:07 PM Post #264 |
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Dark Soul
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You only count as ECL5 tops, not ECL 11... though I have no idea how that affects quests. Best bet is to get a party and level with them, XP is gradually increased then. |
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"From the realms below we ride, And in terror they run and hide, From the shadows of old we rise, Awakened, from the dark! Over the ancient ruins we fly, Where the old kings go to die, And the new kingdoms rising high, Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!" | |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 3 2014, 04:45 PM Post #265 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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The way Level Adjustment works is to state that when you combine LA with Hit Dice/Class Levels, you wind up with an effective character level. So for instance, the base Monster Manual erinyes, having 9 hit dice and a +7 ECL, is equivalent in power to a 16th-level character. When you take into account the base monster has six feats, damage reduction, high natural armor, multiple immunities and resistances, true seeing, spell-like abilities, summonning capabilities, and four stats over 20, this absolutely makes sense. However, that does bring one thing into play, and I think we need to hear from Agony on this one. Back when we were doing special race requests, although the character was forced to take outsider levels, they also were granted a widget on creation which gave them the spell-like powers they're granted in-game, whereas now those are not part of the package. On the flip side, an additional 16 ability points are being granted at 1st level, giving the chance of almost pitfiend-level ability scores. Considering the game engine advantages of raising scores into the high 20s, this would seem to tilt things into the character's favor. Finally, high-ECL classes should always be considered options for advanced players, particularly when they're being considered for grinding. Yes, if you try to level by visiting Undersigil and the Slags, you're going to have a hard time of it; your initial ECL should see you starting with mid-level areas, and yes, your effectiveness is probably going to require you to find a group and not go it alone. Leveling from 0 to max is never going to be easy with these high-ECL races, so if the "sprint to 30" is your intention, you're going to be better off sticking with a more standard race. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| SigTerm | Aug 3 2014, 05:12 PM Post #266 |
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Leveling those in undersigil is not a problem, however, they play very differently compared to any other "normal" race. Basically, many things that are a big hurdle for level 1 characters are not a concern, instead you need to worry about your defense, because you're engine of destruction made of fragile glass, with one attack per round. I simply asked that question because being ecl+8 with one attack per round felt a bit strange. However, judging from your reply, it only means that I get "blank state" erinyes, or perhaps one that recently adalthood (in case of succubus - newborn ones), while demons/devils mentioned in source books already have some experience and been around for a while. In addition to that it would make sense to consider adding alignment restrictions to devils/demons. Demons are supposed to be always chaotic evil, devils are always lawfu levil. I'm not sure if shifting alignment for devil/demon is impossible at all, but even if it happens, it is an extraordinary event. Currently, however, you can pick lawful good for both of them at character's creation. |
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| A. Thereal | Aug 3 2014, 05:36 PM Post #267 |
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Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
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@Alignment Restrictions - I partially agree with this since 99.9% of all outsiders are defined by a specific alignment. And while it's true that there have been extraordinary circumstances of outsiders shifting alignments, even from one extreme to the other, I'm not sure we should allow this to become the norm. On the other hand, non-outsider races such as vampires are also pre-determined to have evil alignments, but since they're not constructed of the very stuff of evil (like fiends) an alignment shift or deviation seems less ridiculous. If we do restrict alignments, we might want to consider it very carefully and only for outsiders. @ECL Races - I play an +8 ECL race and I haven't found the XP gain to be terribly slow. Granted, I started in the Beastlands and have been working up. While our current special race system isn't perfect, I'm fairly content with it. I am curious how certain outsiders will work in DM events, though. For example, most outsiders have the Tongues ability - so will EMs and DMs acknowledge that these characters can communicate with virtually anything? Or are we sticking to what the races offer only? Meaning that Succubi cannot alter their appearance at will? |
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NERO URBANE Detective & Cheese Monger SERRADHE Personal Counselor & Exhibitionist | |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 3 2014, 09:20 PM Post #268 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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As was stated earlier in the thread, it's guaranteed that you'll get a better character in the end with class levels to choose from rather than having levels of outsider forced on you.
AFAIK there's no way to disallow alignments based on races, so it would seem we have to rely on the willingness of players to stick to canon in the case of outsiders. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Tamamo-no-Mae | Aug 4 2014, 02:46 AM Post #269 |
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Regarding alignment restrictions for undead, people should remember that it's possible to act outside of your alignment. Undead are always (with very rare exceptions, such as archliches and baelnorns) evil by nature. You can force yourself to act outside of your nature, however. If you're intelligent, you can choose to defy that nature, you have the choice. But it's not exactly easy or pleasant to force yourself away from what your nature is. Being evil is rooted in your soul; how long can you continue to make yourself do good, even when rejected as a monster or abomination by the same people you do good for? How long can you keep that work up, struggling against the darkness in your heart, while it continues to look easier and more comfortable and more suitable and more fun to give in? Being a good-acting evil creature doesn't have to be a hollow snowflake-y situation. It could be a tragic struggle, wherein only the whims of fate decide whether the creature succumbs to the constant lure of evil or, much more rarely, manages to miraculously find a way to free themselves from their shackles. |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 4 2014, 03:07 AM Post #270 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Tamamo, there is a difference here when talking about undead compared to outsiders. There are more than a few examples of "good" undead, while some are evil simply because of circumstances: a vampire needs to murder to feed, while the actions a lich must take on the path to lichdom unerringly turns them to evil. Such beings are capable of "redemption"; true outsiders, however, are physical extensions of their plane. Not only could an Archon not perform an evil act, but he could never even contemplate doing so due to him being composed of the very stuff of Celestia, and it would take a truly exceptional situation to even start him down the path towards evil, just as an erinyes turning towards chaos or good would be just as mind-bogglingly rare. This isn't a case of "I'm a drow but I have a conscience and am a Mary Sue so now I'm a good ranger who befriends dwarves and halflings", but more akin to "I'm a human but I've decided to spend the rest of my life as a lobster". Oh, and A. Thereal: your earlier assumption was wrong. An erinyes with 23 character levels, seven outsider levels, and a +7 LA would be a 37th level character. The level adjustment takes into account innate features of the race that more or less are given in lieu of BAB and other level-based features. Just a for instance to hammer this home, at 10 hit dice the base MM erinyes' constitution score is worth an extra 50 hit points, while their innate strength gives a +5 to hit, giving them an extremely substantial advantage over that same level of human or even one several levels higher. Now, that's not to say that I don't see room for tweaks; however I'm not going to throw my personal thoughts of how things might be changed out here but rather will be discussing this on the DM and developer boards. And with that in mind, please don't view my comments here (aside from the LA ones, which are fact rather than opinion) as the view of the DM team. I've only been back a week and am not about to start declaring "the way things should be". Otherwise Agony will return from vacation and start chopping off tentacles.
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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