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Special Races: Bugs
Topic Started: Jul 7 2014, 01:37 PM (4,397 Views)
ManyFaced
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 8 2014
09:24 AM
Tom - it is considered an exploit using it in combat as it allows you to get past monsters without taking extra hits going round them. Please keep that in mind.

It's honestly necessary to fight in some areas as melee, without it they can pin you in awkward places and you can't attack back. He's right in that it still subjects you to AoO's normally, so the only gain is running through an area while taking damage.

Until walkmeshes and placeables are cleared up in Carceri and Niflheim, it'll always be needed.
"Can everyone try just, reading what the DM writes? I think that'd be a good first step."
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ManyFaced
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 8 2014
02:17 AM
The idea of giving creature weapons is that they should be better than regular fists (either more damage or a special effect). In the case of ghouls it should be (see earlier bug report about ghoul claws), so really can't remove them without changing one of the key features about ghouls.

So i'm not going to get rid of the claws, and therefore if you go monk you will not get monk fist damage progression (it should be codeable by comparing damage they should get with the damage on the creature weapon, but it would be messy and not sure a good idea).

Doubt i can do anything about the extra damage from gloves, so i guess you best shelve the character. If i make any progress on this issue though ill announce it in an update.

It's not really acceptable for creature weapons to break with one of the most commonly used class, especially since many players will pick the sole class focused around combat because you made it so they can't use weapons. Creature weapons as a whole need removed and their effects supplemented by another system.

There's a couple alternatives-

Spawning those characters with an in inventory totem, an non-equipable pair of gloves set to give the bonuses to whatever pair of gloves the player uses. Additional physical damage can be added this way, resulting in the same creature damage (or close to it).


Add a feat/item to give any special on hit properties and give these races equivalent monk progression to increase the damage.

Add an feat that would buff the character with these traits.


I imagine there are other options as well, but simply telling people to "Shelve your characters or deal with it" isn't a way to go about it and will certainly turn off new or returning players. New players won't understand why things don't work and give up, while older players will see the server is even a buggier mess than and just go back to their original place.

And no, I don't think a disclaimer of "This race doesn't work at all" really cuts it.
"Can everyone try just, reading what the DM writes? I think that'd be a good first step."
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Tomekk
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Dark Soul
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While you make valid points, you should remember that one person is trying to make all of this work and there are big warning labels in the update that this will be a buggy mess at first. Just give it time and everything can be solved.

The most we can do to help is to find as many bugs as possible.
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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Danakir
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I understand I'll probably have to shelve my ghoul for a while. Hopefully something can be figured out to make creature weapons behave themselves with gloves.

I'll keep my fingers crossed.
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ManyFaced
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Tomekk,Jul 8 2014
10:16 AM
While you make valid points, you should remember that one person is trying to make all of this work and there are big warning labels in the update that this will be a buggy mess at first. Just give it time and everything can be solved.

The most we can do to help is to find as many bugs as possible.

Tomekk, what isn't being considered is that with the number of races relying on creature weapons because they can't use weapons... DR will make them completely unplayable past level 12 to 15. There's no way to pierce most of the server DR without gloves, and there's no good way to say "Sorry, you'll never be able to do damage again" to a new player. If it's not fixed, then these creature weapon only races need disabled because we're knowing creating a poor player experience.

And those sort of things need fixed fast, it can't stay that way for months on end either. If the project needs opened up to other scriptors or coders then that's what needs done. On the bright side, there's a lot of quick and dirty fixes (as other servers I've worked on have done), it just will take a willingness to alter how the systems function and are applied.
"Can everyone try just, reading what the DM writes? I think that'd be a good first step."
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Tomekk
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I agree, unarmed attacks and to a certain point creature attacks all fall off due to how prevalent DR is on the server... hence why I once suggested creating a new Aligned Weapon spell range, that can enchant anything to do damage vs a certain alignment, thus solving a lot of piercing issues. Though I'm not a scripter, so my knowledge on how you'd make that work is not much.
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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lukehall
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hmm just a thought, does the weapon enchanter in the armory see creature weapons? Perhaps that could get you around your gloves issue?

Admittedly I have not played for long enough to have actually used it, so I don't really know what can be done with that system, or how easy it is to get the necessary items.
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Agony_Aunt
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Nah, creature weapons in general are an absolute pain and the game engine handles them terribly. In defense to Obsidian devs though, they never envisaged a server where most enemies had DR or we would have PCs using creature weapons.

On the other hand, Unarmed is also badly borked as well... so its a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Quote:
 
And those sort of things need fixed fast, it can't stay that way for months on end either. If the project needs opened up to other scriptors or coders then that's what needs done.


MF - You know i'm as active as i can be, so please, drop the attitude of entitlement. And it may have escaped your attention, but we are very thin on developers around here. I'm already working on fixes for issues that have been raised, and as Tom said, i need bug reports, not attitude. And i may be blowing my own trumpet here, but i dare to say there are few developers out there who know as much as i do about the mechanics of creature weapons/unarmed. I literally am the best person to deal with this particular problem. Others are welcome to join in helping me fix bugs though, ill wait for their PMs offering to help.

Quote:
 
Tomekk, what isn't being considered is that with the number of races relying on creature weapons because they can't use weapons... DR will make them completely unplayable past level 12 to 15. There's no way to pierce most of the server DR without gloves, and there's no good way to say "Sorry, you'll never be able to do damage again" to a new player. If it's not fixed, then these creature weapon only races need disabled because we're knowing creating a poor player experience.


Somehow i think both myself and Tomekk are aware of the nature of DR on this server and the effect this will have. (ye gods, can't believe im taking sides with Tomekk! Tom - care to switch sides so we can get back to arguing about shit?). So please, let me look at this and ill see what i can do. In the meatime, please note, Ghouls can actually equip weapons! They do not suffer from the No Manual Dexterity feat. So in the short term, its not a killer... har har... punny. I'd suggest coldberries/flameberries that do 1d6 cold/fire damage that is unresistable, but i think they will only work on animal companions. I could look at that and perhaps change it to work on any creature weapon though the same as i did for the magic fang and similar spells.

Quote:
 
hmm just a thought, does the weapon enchanter in the armory see creature weapons? Perhaps that could get you around your gloves issue?

Admittedly I have not played for long enough to have actually used it, so I don't really know what can be done with that system, or how easy it is to get the necessary items.


Ah ha! A constructive suggestion! I like the cut of yer jib young fellow! Enchanters can't currently enchant creature weapons, but it could be a nice option. Ill keep it in mind. :thumbs:
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Selebius
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Soo... remade my dogboy as a Ranger (was barbarian first) and it seems the erratic AC is gone. Could it have been because of the barbs DR?
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Danakir
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Sacred Fist gives a delicious -8 AB penalty if you try to equip any weapon due to their code of conduct.

:(

So that's not really an option. What about this inventory totem thing? I've heard it's been done before and it sounds like the simplest way to get it done. Plus, a ghoul fighting with weapons instead of their claws is just… y'know? >>

I mean, of course, that's my fault for building that way but how was I supposed to guess my fist monk wouldn't be able to use their fists effectively? As it stands, DR is annoying but all I really want is just to be able to equip gloves like everyone else. If at all possible.

This is kind of the perfect bug to completely screw this build over. oTL
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Agony_Aunt
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ManyFaced,Jul 8 2014
02:04 PM
It's honestly necessary to fight in some areas as melee, without it they can pin you in awkward places and you can't attack back.

While we are going strongly off topic here and may need to split this, but you are wrong on two counts.

1) In all my years playing here (and i am aware you also have been around a long time) i have never found it necessary to turn on closeness. The word you are looking for is advantageous.

Which brings us nicely to 2.

2) Using tools intended to help characters with problems to gain a mechanical advantage when not necessary is by my definition exploiting the system.

Why not consider it this way? You are trapped in an area where the terrain is uncertain. You are pinned in by large bulky creatures! Is this the end for our hero? Tune in next week for more startling Tales from the Abyss!!! *cue maniacal laughter*

Bottom line: I am not going to condone this. If pathing is screwing up, then by all means, turn it on for a moment, but don't run around with it on while grinding and don't use it to get around large creatures unless its clearly a pathing issue. If I see it, or hear of it, i will issue a warning. Is that clear?
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Agony_Aunt
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Selebius,Jul 8 2014
06:45 PM
Soo... remade my dogboy as a Ranger (was barbarian first) and it seems the erratic AC is gone. Could it have been because of the barbs DR?

Highly unlikely. Unless you had used the Barb rage which messes with AC (-2 IIRC).

Haven't looked at this fully yet, but another thought has come to me.. i think for some of the forms i allowed merging not only armour, but also items and weapons, something that normally doesn't happen... it could contribute to the problem. What i really need is some proper testing of this to see if its really an issue or just the AC display going wonky. I used to have a QA person who would do this sort of testing, but they seem to be too busy making critical comments to be investigating bugs :rolleyes:
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Agony_Aunt
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Danakir,Jul 8 2014
06:48 PM
Sacred Fist gives a delicious -8 AB penalty if you try to equip any weapon due to their code of conduct.

:(

So that's not really an option. What about this inventory totem thing? I've heard it's been done before and it sounds like the simplest way to get it done. Plus, a ghoul fighting with weapons instead of their claws is just… y'know? >>

I mean, of course, that's my fault for building that way but how was I supposed to guess my fist monk wouldn't be able to use their fists effectively? As it stands, DR is annoying but all I really want is just to be able to equip gloves like everyone else. If at all possible.

This is kind of the perfect bug to completely screw this build over. oTL

Yeah, Sacred Fists don't use weapons.

Not going to go the route of inventory totem. That is going to really open a can of worms and mess with some important design decisions. Not sure its going to work either... inventory items are not going to work with on-hit properties.

I'm currently thinking of just refreshing their creature weapons on level up. Increasing DCs, increasing base damage, etc. That should work nicely. A bit fiddly to implement but a better solution i think. Still need to look at it properly though.

The other way to go is to take any damage bonuses from gloves and apply them to the creature weapons on equip and remove the property when unequipped. Its nice in that it would make gloves "work", but it would add some overhead every time someone equipped or unequipped any item as the same script fires regardless. Not sure i'm happy with this solution because of that. And can't get round it any other way because what we are looking at here is a hardcoded problem.

The only really good fix would be to do away with creature weapon on playable races entirely. But not sure then i could implement the oh-hit functionality via feat effect.... damage bonuses fine.... but part of the charm of some of these races is the special effects of their attacks. Take that away, and the ghoul just becomes a glorified zombie.

Anyway, ill try and find a solution.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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ManyFaced
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 8 2014
03:06 PM
Danakir,Jul 8 2014
06:48 PM
Sacred Fist gives a delicious -8 AB penalty if you try to equip any weapon due to their code of conduct.

:(

So that's not really an option. What about this inventory totem thing? I've heard it's been done before and it sounds like the simplest way to get it done. Plus, a ghoul fighting with weapons instead of their claws is just… y'know? >>

I mean, of course, that's my fault for building that way but how was I supposed to guess my fist monk wouldn't be able to use their fists effectively? As it stands, DR is annoying but all I really want is just to be able to equip gloves like everyone else. If at all possible.

This is kind of the perfect bug to completely screw this build over. oTL

Yeah, Sacred Fists don't use weapons.

Not going to go the route of inventory totem. That is going to really open a can of worms and mess with some important design decisions. Not sure its going to work either... inventory items are not going to work with on-hit properties.

I'm currently thinking of just refreshing their creature weapons on level up. Increasing DCs, increasing base damage, etc. That should work nicely. A bit fiddly to implement but a better solution i think. Still need to look at it properly though.

The other way to go is to take any damage bonuses from gloves and apply them to the creature weapons on equip and remove the property when unequipped. Its nice in that it would make gloves "work", but it would add some overhead every time someone equipped or unequipped any item as the same script fires regardless. Not sure i'm happy with this solution because of that. And can't get round it any other way because what we are looking at here is a hardcoded problem.

The only really good fix would be to do away with creature weapon on playable races entirely. But not sure then i could implement the oh-hit functionality via feat effect.... damage bonuses fine.... but part of the charm of some of these races is the special effects of their attacks. Take that away, and the ghoul just becomes a glorified zombie.

Anyway, ill try and find a solution.

Consider the following:

Remove creature weapons and instead add an NPC enchanter that can add these effects to existing gear, but would also tag the gear with your UMD script for their race; so that from that point forward no other race besides that character can use the item. Upgrading the enchantment with levels would be easy because the NPC would simply over-write the effects on the gloves.

It's possible to remove them as well, but I see that as being problematic.


The downside is that a player would be unable to resell their old gear, but it could be written off as being modified for that race. In fact, don't call it an enchanter but an armor refitter.
"Can everyone try just, reading what the DM writes? I think that'd be a good first step."
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Tomekk
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Agony_Aunt,Jul 8 2014
07:06 PM
I'm currently thinking of just refreshing their creature weapons on level up.  Increasing DCs, increasing base damage, etc.  That should work nicely. A bit fiddly to implement but a better solution i think. Still need to look at it properly though.

You could also add an option to Styx to refresh it manually... and please make the DCs scale with something sane, and not CHA. :P
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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