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Hellfire Warlock & You; Don't CON me bro!
Topic Started: Sep 2 2014, 03:36 AM (298 Views)
Nerull
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I'm not Evil, I'm morally Ambiguous.
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Problem at Hand: As we are all aware, although some may not know this, Hellfire Warlock Constitution Drain does not work on Undead or Constructs. This allows for a free 3d6 Damage to any and all damage done by either of these PC subtypes and a permanent damage shield on their person.

Idea(s) to Resolve:

Possibility 1.) Remove the Constitution Drain for Hellfire Warlock, balancing out the obvious abuse of the Bug so that anyone can use the PrC. This would counter that you really only see (Not to explicitly say ONLY, but quite a few of the majority, as in perhaps half, are known to use it) the combination of Monk, Warlock, Hellfire Warlock and Blackguard with Undead subraces.

Possibility 2.) Bar the Hellfire Warlock from being used in conjunction with Undead Templates and Construct Templates due to the known bug. With this removed, not only will you see the steady drop of the combination with these coinciding templates to effectively Zero after rebuilds, but it will also halt the Bug/Glitch.

Possibility 3.) Make the CON drain affect Undead and Constructs, placing them on par with the other PC templates.



Thoughts: Being a server where we can freely play anything we want is a great thing, but it also shouldn't be a place where (as a game that uses mechanics as its primary means of entertainment) game mechanics can be used in such means to give players an advantage over others.

In terms of storylines, Hellfire Warlocks could be joined in terms of Pacts with Undead to bring them back, or to keep them living. Yet if we are going to judge characters with 'Special cases', we must also then force ourselves to judge the rest of the characters build. Why are they a Monk? Why are they a blackguard? Why are you Min-Maxing and stacking saves? Why do you feel entitled to having no CON drain when others are forced to have the disadvantage?

It makes situations like this difficult to judge, or to change, because it disrupts existing toons. Yet it also brings to light that some people are getting away with the upfront abuse of a rather well known bug that has never been fixed. I usually ask most Undead warlocks I come across why they are using the bug and the most common reply I've heard is that they were recommended from staff members to use the builds and the CON drain oversight.


I read back 8 pages to see if I could find a thread on this and I was unable to. So I thought I'd bring it back to public attention.
Kapaneus

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Xndar
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Actually, I have tested this and as far as I can see, contrary to the description of the ability itself, Hellfire Blast and Shield DO in fact deal con damage to undead and constructs regardless of their immunities.

If you have tested this IG with a golem or undead PC and found this not to be the case, please post again to confirm.
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Nerull
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Perhaps this test was recent? I was recommended hellfire warlock by a player who was a death knight and claimed that he did not suffer CON damage. This was, however, several weeks ago.

I have also been in a party with both a Vampire and a Death Knight just two days ago, who were using Hellfire abilities and seemingly did not suffer CON damage.

If they were suffering CON damage, I can only assume that their HP would begin to drop from the negative affects. It also seemed as if they were taking -1 to -3 counts multiple times without any side effects, unless both of these warlocks had 20 CON, which only one of them had 76 HP to start the abyss run and at the end of the abyss run, I did not see any change. Nor did we rest during the grinding.
Kapaneus

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Agony_Aunt
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Ill check the script, make sure it can apply if it doesn't. If i can't do that, ill block the ability for those with immunity to ability drain.

Those who took HFW with Undead for the exploit can go cry to their mammas when its fixed :D
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Orlitoq
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The HFW does indeed apply a CON drain to Undead (and presumably constructs, but I have not tested that), however Undead are immune to stat drain. The problme is not in the application of the CON drain, but in the inability of the undead to suffer the effects that are being mechanically applied.

While Nerull and I were thinking along the same lines with a suggestion of just having Undead (and I guess Constructs too) not be able to take this class, removing the CON drain altogether is a more appealing option from a player perspective as certain kinds of Undead and HFW mixes make a LOT of sense (EDIT: My main is one, so yeah, I am slightly biased...).

And NErull, I think it is an additional 6D6 damage, not 3D6. "A hellfire blast deals your normal Eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level."
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(Agony_Aunt @ Jul 29 2014, 07:34 AM)
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Tomekk
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Shadelore's Death Knight did not suffer CON damage at all, he kept spamming hellfire like there was no tomorrow... perhaps check if anything changed with the races since then?

I consistently suggested it just simply damaging you with something like 3d6 after every blast, so you don't lose 25% of your HP after 4 blasts due to the massive effect CON has on low HD classes... plus, they won't have to spam lesser restoration wands like recovering drug addicts then.
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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Agony_Aunt
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Shadelore is a bad boy for not reporting it then, along with every other player who is exploiting this.

Remind me to do something nasty to those players :D

Ill put a Damage effect on them to replace the CON loss. Let's see them spam those feats now ::troll::
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Jiv
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Blood
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Quote:
 
This allows for a free 3d6 Damage to any and all damage done by either of these PC subtypes and a permanent damage shield on their person.


Constructs and most of the Undead are all reasonably high LA, not to mention dealing with the healing issues Undead have. Great, they have a class that's better for them than it is for most other races. So does nearly every other race. Lets them have it.

I mean, the abilities even say, "If you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, the ability remains usable." It's like it was written with Undead in mind at the very least.
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sabrem82
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Xndar,Sep 2 2014
04:14 AM
Actually, I have tested this and as far as I can see, contrary to the description of the ability itself, Hellfire Blast and Shield DO in fact deal con damage to undead and constructs regardless of their immunities.

If you have tested this IG with a golem or undead PC and found this not to be the case, please post again to confirm.

As a vampire hellfire warlock I can say for a fact I don't get con damage from the blast or shield.
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Orlitoq
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Agony_Aunt,Sep 2 2014
07:04 AM
Shadelore is a bad boy for not reporting it then, along with every other player who is exploiting this.

Remind me to do something nasty to those players :D

Ill put a Damage effect on them to replace the CON loss. Let's see them spam those feats now  ::troll::

I first heard about the Hellfire Warlock + Undead option from a DM/EM who explicitely suggested it to me as something to try to fit a particular character type, and that DM/EM pointed out the lack of CON loss at that thyme.

When I asked that DM/EM if that was considered an Exploit, and something I should not be doing, the DM/EM said it was not an issue and that I was free to do it...
Quote:
 
(Agony_Aunt @ Jul 29 2014, 07:34 AM)
But I am racist!


Ghyrryn: Gnoll Sensate
Grahn Ljungstrahd: Bailiff of the City Courts
Filip Kustaa: Purveyor of Westminster Brewery's fine beverages
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Tomekk
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Dark Soul
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Jiv,Sep 2 2014
01:50 PM
Quote:
 
This allows for a free 3d6 Damage to any and all damage done by either of these PC subtypes and a permanent damage shield on their person.


Constructs and most of the Undead are all reasonably high LA, not to mention dealing with the healing issues Undead have. Great, they have a class that's better for them than it is for most other races. So does nearly every other race. Lets them have it.

I mean, the abilities even say, "If you do not have a Constitution score or are somehow immune to Constitution damage, the ability remains usable." It's like it was written with Undead in mind at the very least.

It actually says the opposite in the skill description: you can't use it if you can't take CON Damage, but that was a shallow attempt at trying to get people from discovering how lazy their code was.
"From the realms below we ride,
And in terror they run and hide,
From the shadows of old we rise,
Awakened, from the dark!

Over the ancient ruins we fly,
Where the old kings go to die,
And the new kingdoms rising high,
Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!"
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Nerull
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I'm not Evil, I'm morally Ambiguous.
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Backlash damage seems like a great idea AA, just make sure that it is unavoidable and can't be resisted, Yeah? I mean, it's your soul burning. Top kek.


Shadelore was also the guy who suggested the original Monk/Warlock/HFW/BG idea to me because of the lack of CON drain, but he suggested Death Knight over Vampire due to them being immune to turning. However, I never liked Skelatore from the He-man series, so I steered clear. :badumtssh:
Kapaneus

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Agony_Aunt
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Get a Life
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Orlitoq,Sep 2 2014
07:51 PM
When I asked that DM/EM if that was considered an Exploit, and something I should not be doing, the DM/EM said it was not an issue and that I was free to do it...

Bad DM/EM!

Buy anyway, fix will be in next update. It will now be direct damage. 0.5 HP/character level per use (or per hit in case of Hellfire Shield).
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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Orlitoq
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Just to make sure I understand the math:

Quote:
 
0.5 HP/warlock/HFW level


Is that 0.5/x/y supposed to mean (0.5(X+Y))?

Example: a 10 Warlock + 3 HFW takes 6 damage a use of the HFW class abilities while a 25 Warlock + 1 HFW takes 13 a pop?
Quote:
 
(Agony_Aunt @ Jul 29 2014, 07:34 AM)
But I am racist!


Ghyrryn: Gnoll Sensate
Grahn Ljungstrahd: Bailiff of the City Courts
Filip Kustaa: Purveyor of Westminster Brewery's fine beverages
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Agony_Aunt
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Get a Life
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Post was edited. I corrected it.
Stepped down as admin, but still lurking.
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