|
| ||||
Announcements
| Welcome to Sigil: City of Doors. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Coming Soon - Demonologist Prestige Class | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Feb 8 2015, 05:51 PM (2,589 Views) | |
| DarkPerin | Feb 9 2015, 04:21 AM Post #16 |
Blood
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The tricky thing about summons, is they can't be to powerful, because then it makes playing a fighter type, or whatever the type the summon is, pointless generally. Especially after wizard buffs. Especially when you consider that the wizard still has a huge arsenal of spells. Probably why they only make the summons effective up to the Abyss. |
![]() |
|
| PenguinNinja | Feb 9 2015, 05:21 AM Post #17 |
|
Stormfire
![]()
|
I always wanted to see a server that had a line of caster feats that let you summon a multitude of creatures that could go toe to toe with basically anything on the server, be in the process your character is very gimped, incredibly low HP, AC, saves, and the monster's can only be summoned once per day. Say you have a Tank summon, a DPS summon, and a sneak summon, you summon the Tank, you can't summon anything else till you rest, ect. |
|
|Alan Erian| |Klatharaxl'tun the Devourer| | |
![]() |
|
| Ceremorph | Feb 9 2015, 05:31 AM Post #18 |
|
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
![]()
|
Tubbles: you mean the naga is better than what you get for Epic Gate? Poststructuralism: you're welcome! DarkPerin: None of the Binder of Fiends summons is going to be anywhere close to an epic-level melee build, of course. Both because of design and because of stupid AI. But what this really comes down to is sacrificing the caster's blasting ability, and in return getting summons to fill that role. Thus, the well-played demonologist is going to be a controller figure more than a constantly acting one. Here's my view of the class progression: it definitely starts off weak, as you will need either 5 wiz levels or 6 of sorc/bard before qualifying, and the feat qualifications of SF: Conj and Augment Summoning pretty much force you to build with this PRC in mind. The best possible outcome would involve taking this class as early as possible, which will result in very strong bound fiends, and the bonuses to summoned creatures are most effective in the middle levels. Take the full ten of demonologist to get the best version of the bound fiend and the resistances, then likely either a move straight to ASOC or Red Wizard to pick up and make best use of the high-level offensive spells, or else dip into a divine casting class and advance Mystic Theurge to double-dip your spells (because the Summoning Mastery also applies itself to other classes casting their summon creature as well). Another interesting option is if you started with Bard, you could resume bardic progression, since the inspirations affect your summons and henchmen and enhance that controller role; you just have to live with either not getting requiem unless you sacrifice the 10th level of demonologist (but trust me, you want the bound fiend from L9). Stand back, let your (preferably well-buffed) Bound Fiend deal with enemies, while you throw in additional summons or the rare offensive spell when circumstances dictate. It's definitely a different playstyle, but one that I think will wind up being quite effective. |
|
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
![]() |
|
| Tubbles | Feb 9 2015, 05:42 AM Post #19 |
Prime
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I wouldn't say the guardian naga was better than the planetar from epic gate, but the planetar could still use some slight buffs. As it is, they are a little bit too close in usefulness, considering one is just a normal 9th level spell, and the other is an epic feat. From my experience the Planetar is pretty tanky, and he has some useful healing, but he doesn't really do much else. It's a little bit disappointing as an epic feat. I have no real experience with the evil summons, but I know for a fact that Gate for neutrals across the board is pretty useless. The Death Slaad for Neutral/Chaotic Neutral NEEDS to be buffed, or he just immediately gets feared and killed. Meanwhile, the Astral Deva for Good characters does a pretty decent job of staying alive and killing things. Not quite as strong as the Vampire Warrior from Create Greater Undead however. |
![]() |
|
| Ceremorph | Feb 9 2015, 06:06 AM Post #20 |
|
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
![]()
|
Tubbles: that's the biggest part of the balancing act that's currently out of whack, and it truly does happen at almost every level of summon creature. My aim is to make each level fill a specific role, and for the summoned monsters to be similar in overall functionality, while having its own unique quirks. What I'm really looking for is so that if LG and CE characters cast the same summon spell and let the results have a poke-battle (hezrou, I choose you!), it should be a close fight that could go either way. |
|
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
![]() |
|
| Nerull | Feb 9 2015, 09:08 AM Post #21 |
|
I'm not Evil, I'm morally Ambiguous.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Cere, when you revamp the Summon Trees, can you also take the time to revamp Warlock, Blackguard and Pale Master summons as well? |
|
Kapaneus D&D 3.5 pdfs D&D Knowledge Source Special <COLOR> Text Codes The Compendium of Roleplay Guides | |
![]() |
|
| FriendlyNecromancer | Feb 9 2015, 01:06 PM Post #22 |
|
Necromantic Singularity
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Pale Master summons really need some help. They are plain useless, and I mean it. Besides the new vamp summon at 9-10, that's awesome but once again you only get it at level 9. |
![]() |
|
| shadowblizmasta | Feb 9 2015, 01:28 PM Post #23 |
Namer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I have to agree with that. The near capstone Vampire Warrior is pretty damn powerful for a summon, if a bit dumb due to AI, but the rest of them just kind of fall apart like wet tissue paper. The AC, immunities, and elite vampire are almost enough to make up for it, but it would be nice if the PM could have useful other undead summons. |
|
Too many to list! So here are the ones I play a lot lately. Barrakasra - Wraith? Bard Kandra Blackhand - Humanish Monk of the Twin Oaks Z'ssadra Tharress - Pureblood Green Scholar Sskrassk - Lizardfolk Fiend Hunter | |
![]() |
|
| Aslya | Feb 9 2015, 02:12 PM Post #24 |
Blood
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Summons are very difficult to balance. maxed PM/BG/SD summons should be on par with mages/clerics/druids best non-epic summons. But demonologist summons should be better than any of those, and probably even better than epic summons (by the way, would epic summons benefit from the augment summon/demonologist class feature ?), since it's a 10 lvl investment entirely focused on summons, unlike PM/BG/SD, and at the high cost of 3 caster levels. Easy to write; hard to do. |
![]() |
|
| Tomekk | Feb 9 2015, 02:21 PM Post #25 |
|
Dark Soul
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
PMs sacrifice 5 caster-levels for some AC, a barely functional touch attack and a capstone ability that simply doesn't work... I think they also deserve a summon that is worth the losses. |
|
"From the realms below we ride, And in terror they run and hide, From the shadows of old we rise, Awakened, from the dark! Over the ancient ruins we fly, Where the old kings go to die, And the new kingdoms rising high, Awakened, from the dark, dark slumber!" | |
![]() |
|
| Aslya | Feb 9 2015, 02:33 PM Post #26 |
Blood
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Immunity to criticals (but yes, not to sneak attack, contrary to NWN) is not nothing; but yes, they should get a better summon than the actual ones; especially before the vampire elite. But not on par with the coming demonologist. Why ? Because they still get goodies not to be compared to the barely worth +2 AC against outsiders and the decent (but you're mage, hello elemental immunities anyway) 10/ elemental demonologist will get. "Some" AC ? It's +6 at lvl 8. Darkvision. +4 Fortitude. Immunity to hold, paralysis, stun. Then, critical hits. The touch attack is bad, though yes. |
![]() |
|
| Orlitoq | Feb 9 2015, 02:38 PM Post #27 |
|
Who invited this guy?
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
But it is a play I have been wanting to see for a LOOOOOOONG thyme, and you have me salivating with anticipation! Good question about whether or not the Epic spell Gate is affected by class features! If you had not asked that I was going to do so. I fear that the answer will be "no" but I pray otherwise. EDIT: Aslya brings up the +2 AC Vs Outsiders issue... Does that stack with all other kinds of AC or is that immediately eclipsed by gear? |
Ghyrryn: Gnoll Sensate Grahn Ljungstrahd: Bailiff of the City Courts Filip Kustaa: Purveyor of Westminster Brewery's fine beverages | |
![]() |
|
| shadowblizmasta | Feb 9 2015, 02:40 PM Post #28 |
Namer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
My Palemaster is pretty damn effective as a gish. Off the top of my head, I think his AC is around 60, which barring a few specific builds that use Divine Shield is pretty respectable. |
|
Too many to list! So here are the ones I play a lot lately. Barrakasra - Wraith? Bard Kandra Blackhand - Humanish Monk of the Twin Oaks Z'ssadra Tharress - Pureblood Green Scholar Sskrassk - Lizardfolk Fiend Hunter | |
![]() |
|
| Ceremorph | Feb 9 2015, 03:17 PM Post #29 |
|
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
![]()
|
I am planning on revisiting the class-based summons, as well as Gate and Epic Gate. I don't think I'm planning to apply the Summoing Mastery to Gate/Epic Gate, but instead I might just make a little tweak that favors demonologists in the script. Wait and find out is the rule of the day, as this is part of Phase II. But first, I'm going to look at the "regular" summons, since they're both the most common and the highest quantity. Right now, the Demonologist ability ONLY works with these spells. But it does mean you're getting a better version of every level. The AC vs. Outsiders is dodge-based. |
|
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
![]() |
|
| Orlitoq | Feb 9 2015, 03:34 PM Post #30 |
|
Who invited this guy?
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ceremorph, you had mentioned that this is Phase II. How many phases are there in building a new class? Along with the old summoner discussion I mentioned previously was the idea of adding a radial menu to Summoning spells; somewhat akin to how Shape Shift lets you choose one of 4 forms. The benefit of this was that it allowed themed casters to select critters that fell within their theme, rather than be the Pyromancer who has a lot of Water Elemental friends. Is that option something that either is in the works, or could be added later to the summons? Even identical stat blocks with different skins would make for a sense of customization and variety. |
Ghyrryn: Gnoll Sensate Grahn Ljungstrahd: Bailiff of the City Courts Filip Kustaa: Purveyor of Westminster Brewery's fine beverages | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Announcements and Information · Next Topic » |





![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/10754/109/0/f7002139/pipend.png)





12:48 AM Jul 11