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| Coming Soon - Demonologist Prestige Class | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 8 2015, 05:51 PM (2,587 Views) | |
| Agony_Aunt | Feb 13 2015, 11:31 AM Post #46 |
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Get a Life
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Erm... Undead != Demon |
| Stepped down as admin, but still lurking. | |
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| Juurane | Feb 13 2015, 11:39 AM Post #47 |
Cutter
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So... what about the Hellfire Warlock then, would THEY be able to become Demonologist? |
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Probably most known of my characters: Mira'shuul Aenslande - Half-celestial near-mute Eldritch Theurge Shera Derlian - WIELDER OF FAE MIGHT! Tiffany 'Tiny' Titanic - A little girl who happens to be a BIG Iron Golem And a few more.... | |
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| Aslya | Feb 13 2015, 01:05 PM Post #48 |
Blood
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Well, I am the demonologist who made such a strong impression. Let's get things clear, in a factual kind of way: - The character is human. - I rushed to be able to take my demonologist levels as soon as possible. - I used 80% of my spells from each rest to buff it. * Hence, I'm becoming my own pet's pet. * The summons are strong, but does not level with your char. By my choice of getting it early and as human, I did have a powerful weapon. That, you can compare to an atrociously OP race such as vampire. About those races, you say "It'll even out". It's the same with those summons. * Since the said experience is with a human wizard character (no ECL, numerous feats), keep in mind that an ECL race would get it much later, and it doesn't scale with the char class levels; it wouldn't be as strong. You cannot nerf it without making the PRC useless for those characters. * The pet is equivalent to a ranger not built like a powerhouse (meaning, no frenzied berzerker or whatnot), with an ECL race, of some levels under my own. That a pet could get close to a player ( but the whole group had 3 and less ECL races; and with CRAPPY gear. 19 AC-in-the-astral-and-surprised-to-die kind of bad gearing. Hence the fact that some were feeling it to be too strong). The fact that a pet could rivalize with a player is shocking, some would say. Again, once my pet was buffed, I basically had nothing else to do. I was following and patching peoples with healing kits. If I rolled a high ECL good race with a decent class, I would outdo that pet easily; I think the whole "OMFG that pet is outrageously OP" feeling is linked to the fact that the party was absolutely bad. Basically no magic gear and low ECL races (1 to 3). Also, all the time, we were fighting favored ennemies of the pet; thats of some importance, even if not decisive. I would like the staff to conduct tests and listen to players actually playing the class, and not teammates getting vocal about something they've got a very partial understanding of. It's too early to talk about nerf or buffs; I feel it won't scale well, now that I got the final update and that, basically, from lvl 16 to 30, it won't get any update at all. [Edit] On that note:
- Yes, true, gold is not necessary with a low lvl demonologist; that's the whole idea, making the pet do the dirty work. Again, we speak about a spellcaster, it's normal. A cleric wouldn't need more than a wisdom amulet for good measure, and would buff itself way above what you can buy as equipment. It's only one exemple amongst many. - It's not a free pet, it's a class feature you get sacrificing 3 caster levels, a class slot, and feats you wouldn't take otherwise. It's, also, what the class is meant to do, and it doesn't get much except that. Is it good ? Yes. Is it meant to be good ? I think so. For the OP part, see above. - Nope. Again, between rests, I only had a few spells that I used against boss; against the salamanders, one firebrand and one isaac / rest, if I remember well. Now, it's better; but a dedicated nuker would make way better, as a matter of course. - Well, yes, buffing the pet is the whole concept , isn'it ? It's not a warlock, you don't get illimited spells. What you use to do that, you don't for another purpose. |
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| Devil's Elysium | Feb 13 2015, 02:10 PM Post #49 |
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Damp Pope of Eris Discordia
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I hate to be eternally campaigning on behalf of warlocks, but..why not? Sure, we don't get a lot of summons, but it fits the theme of the class (especially hellfire warlocks) perfectly. Yes, we don't have a real fiend summon beyond the HFW Summon Baatezu ability - I consider this to be a flaw born of poor invocation selection on Obsidian's behalf. Hell, we can still take Epic Gate, right? Also, if a warlock wants to select demonologist despite the lack of direct bonuses, isn't that kind of more reason to let them? If your dedication to a theme is enough to gimp yourself, why not support it, or at the very least allow it? |
| Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant. | |
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| Jambi | Feb 13 2015, 04:59 PM Post #50 |
Cutter
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I will be making a Demonologist today, too prove my points. Cheesy build Rogue / Wizard / Cleric / Demonologist. Able learner human. Demonologist levels start at 7 so pets is going to OP for my level range. Basicly enough skillpoints too max out: Concentration Heal Listen Open Lock Spot Disable Device Search 30 Tumble 30 Spellcraft 15 UMD So that rules out needing a rogue. Cleric level + Tower shield prof. Still magic 0-3 0-6 0-9, buffs AC skyhigh and being able too spam heal kits on me with maxed out healing skill. Luck Domain / Water domain for extra AC and Evasion. Improved Combat expertise. Survival secured. Petting Zoo, if i am not already a tank myself.. i have plenty of pets to distract an tank for me. while i blast away spells. And am able too heal them. Augment elemental feat for lols Wont be needing equipment until later levels. Practised Spellcaster, Spellcasting prodigy. Base 25+ spell level DC makes all my buffs undisppelable, unless Mords. persistant spell, extend spell, maximize spell Base of 19 Fort / 14 reflex / 21 will saves Time spend making the build : 2 minutes. Probably able too make it more powerfull if cared Here we go! let the cheese commence! ![]() Could swap out the Cleric level, and cancel the automated still spell feat and search / lockpicking etc skills . Take Move Silent / hide , take a SD level for HiPS. and pick other feats . Toughness and epic toughness feats IE. Ditch human and capable learner, rogue class / skills. and get a +1-3 ECL race instead also possible. SR race rcommended |
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| Tubbles | Feb 13 2015, 07:18 PM Post #51 |
Prime
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And with all of that work, you could just go straight wizard and kill things in the abyss ten times easier. The pet isn't invulnerable, and most of those things could be done by any other cleric or wizard build. I'm pretty sure that a decently equipped Ghaele, Trumpet Archon, or Khaasta would show them up handily. |
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| Jambi | Feb 13 2015, 07:42 PM Post #52 |
Cutter
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Exactly, the abyss. I tihnk your missing the point, im trying too make with all this. Im not trying too make a build to roflstomp the abyss. My point im trying too make is, how the Demonologist in the state it is in now leaves other classes way behind. You can pretty much cover everything while leveling up, for little in exchange. I am not talking about the endgame. Im talking about scaling with the other classes
If i knew my class would be designed aroudn a pet zoo, i would take those feats, Augment summoning. Any caster build in the right mind would pick up Practised Spellcaster too make up for any DC lost in multiclassing. I feel like, i would exchange a few feats on a wizard for a strong pet any day. Wizard gets alot .. if not too many feats anyways.
Very true. And if a low / mid level Cleric or any other class would fight an Erineys summoned by a Demonologist of equal level. That cleric would get beaten into pulp. If you think that it is totally ok at low/mid level. That a single pet, can clean up a whole spawn with no effort, wich a party of 5 mixed classes could not handle. And that this is the innitial intention of the class. Then i feel like there is no point in discussing this too be honest. I am not trying too attack or judge anyone personally, im simply giving my observations of the class. And by making a Demonologist myself, im trying too prove myself wrong, or too confirm my theories about it. I am trying too help balance out a class wich has just been implemented. I think they are too powerfull... and i could have also decided not to speak my mind and fully abuse this fact. |
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| Lucadia | Feb 13 2015, 08:20 PM Post #53 |
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In the case of pvp, any cleric or wizard with actual caster levels will be able to just dismiss your pets. I was avoiding trying get in range of a demononlist that was soloing in the abyss last night, didnt want kill it by accident |
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| Orlitoq | Feb 13 2015, 08:44 PM Post #54 |
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Who invited this guy?
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About an hour or two ago I was in a 6 person group with 2 Demonologists. One of which was Aslya. My character went from level 5 (+3 ECL) to 7 (+ECL) in Brux, and I had no complaints about the effectiveness of the Demonologist. At no point did I feel that I was either being overshadowed by the pet, or that I was not a contributing member of the team. From what I saw, it was almost exactly as Aslya described above. Her pet helped, and she used all of her spells to support it, and the party. Another of my characters had an Erineys (not from the Demonologist class) and its effectiveness peters out around level 18. Fro that point onward it is just another party member, and not a very smart one at that. In no way does it take the focus away from what the players do. TL;DR It is way too early to break out the nerf-hammer. |
Ghyrryn: Gnoll Sensate Grahn Ljungstrahd: Bailiff of the City Courts Filip Kustaa: Purveyor of Westminster Brewery's fine beverages | |
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| Jambi | Feb 13 2015, 08:59 PM Post #55 |
Cutter
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Perhaps Brux, the party can help out. But the strenght of the pet is undermined when you let it hunt in Brux. Ide say go too Frost salamanders and giants with a party of level 8's and 9's agianst a full spawn of 8/9 GC spawn, and see how your party does without the Erinyes. ![]() Odd place too be in Brux , Aslya her Erinyes carried our party yesterday thru Brux, Ice plane, too astral plane ( where it eventually met her match ), then we went Minorous where it was fine again, unless swarmed. We didnt see the 3rd form. Sure, we kept on dying alot. but the amount of xp the Erinyes was racking in, made it very worthwhile. I mean i could bring my buddies that where with me too the forum to support my point. We all thought it was stupidly powerfull. All of us combined couldnt evne take it out when it turned on us. |
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| lookslikerain | Feb 13 2015, 09:24 PM Post #56 |
Prime
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I don't have any experience whatsoever with demonologists yet, but I can solo those frost salamanders on my half fiend rogue and have been since level 8 or 9, and with more than 30 AC. The frost salamander mages can be absolutely devastating, since they seem to have polar ray and cone of cold which is a massive, massive amount of damage very fast on a failed save even with my 20 cold resistance, and against classes without evasion I imagine they only hurt a lot more and can easily wipe a party. But the rest of them should not be a real problem for a reasonably equipped group. For a level 12 to solo them is perfectly reasonable in my experience. But I can't really see why you focus on the pet when literally all demonologist gets is that one pet and a small buff to their other summons. That is the entire PRC. Sacrificing spell power for a new pet as opposed to taking another caster PRC where they would gain spell power seems like a reasonable trade, especially if the pet doesn't scale further as they advance into epic levels. |
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| Ceremorph | Feb 14 2015, 12:42 AM Post #57 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Didn't realize you were using it in Beastlands, I somehow had visions of it mopping things up in the Abyss. So, some basic questions... 1. Which version of the bound fiend was this, the Phlegethan, Canian, or Nessian? This is very important, as you have different minimum levels for the demonologist (8/11/14 for wiz, 9/12/15 for sorc/bard). Most people move beyond beastlands by level 15. 2. Were you doing just the grasslands, or did you take her into the forest and against the boss in the cave as well? On the ice plane, were you only facing salamanders or did you take on the giants? 3. Also, were you running the area(s) on standard or gatecrasher mode? 4. Where did its power lie? Was it doing abnormally high amounts of damage, impossible for enemies to hit, or breaking out class features I hadn't taken into consideration? 5. Which buff spells were in effect on the pet? 6. Still waiting for feedback from anyone who's made a NE/CE demonologist and gotten the Incubus pet. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| PenguinNinja | Feb 14 2015, 12:43 AM Post #58 |
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Stormfire
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Seeing as how my level 15 Incubus with 31 AB and 39 AC get's annihilated at the Abyss on Cutter with an ECL 18, I'd say it deserves a boost, not a nerf. |
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|Alan Erian| |Klatharaxl'tun the Devourer| | |
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| PenguinNinja | Feb 14 2015, 12:44 AM Post #59 |
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Stormfire
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And tbh that was mostly because every freaking *** in the Abyss was targeting him. "LET'S ALL *** UP THE SUMMON GUIS, YEAH!" |
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|Alan Erian| |Klatharaxl'tun the Devourer| | |
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| Jambi | Feb 14 2015, 01:04 AM Post #60 |
Cutter
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Got level 9, and got the first pet Plegethan Erinyes.. could have been level 8 took get her, but i took a rogue level. Instantly swapped too GC mode in beastlands. Almost untouchable with buffs. 30+ AC + she casts Mirror images on herself.. about 8-9 or so ? Sure you use alot of buffs on the pet... but you would otherwise use the buffs on yourself. 50-60 dmg on crits. 20-25 dmg on Cold Iron DR mobs. Bab 9 +18 / +13 naturally. , Gets crazy with GMW , heroism etc When she takes her bow out, it gets even more fun. Activates Rapid Fire. pew pew laser guided arrows, hardly ever miss. Marched right into the cavern cleaned it out, and got the chest racking in the jinksShe is atm powerleveling me. I think what is making her so strong at this level, is the initial 2D4 fire dmg on her bow, and probably her strenght modifier. I am level 10 now, almost level 11. Got a lv 5 thug henchmen to tank for me at lower levels. In my oppinion my current pet is still strong enough for the area i should be in at my level. The 2nd pet i think comes too soon in levels. From all the characters ive been playing so far, i can hardly believe ill be able too do Ice plane on GC soon. This is all i observed while being in Brux |
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