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| Coming Soon - Demonologist Prestige Class | |
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| Topic Started: Feb 8 2015, 05:51 PM (2,585 Views) | |
| Devil's Elysium | Feb 15 2015, 04:29 AM Post #76 |
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Damp Pope of Eris Discordia
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In the Abyss last night Aslya's buffed Erinyes went crazy so I cast Word of Changing and punched it a bunch of times. It died and I took no damage. Zero other-caster buffs, basic Word of Changing form. I don't know about lower levels, but the top tier one seems kinda lacking. |
| Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant. | |
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| Jambi | Feb 15 2015, 04:54 AM Post #77 |
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Ive been reading that several times, that the last pet lacks in Abyss. Im trying too think about solutions i can offer too help out. One would almost say that a 4th tier pet is needed for the Abyss, wouldnt you think? But that would just go out of whack, when players decide to rush for it in levels early on. Or perhaps a new ability too toughen up the pet more for that specific area? Tell me if im wrong, but i do not believe the pet was intended to scale up too the strenght of a PC. Aside from that, PvP vs PvM requires diffrent strenghts. In PvP, there is a rock / paper / scissor most of the times. Imaging the NPC's all being build too match up with the Pc attackign them I dont know. There's still so much to try and test out. Perhaps the pet does perform better, when its actual master is more involved in combat then the pet is. Perhaps some odd Hymm of Requiem bard with curse song build for instance too weaken things up. Instead of the selection of spells a wizard can throw in too help. Or a build where its summoner is tanking, instead of the pet... but i think that is kind of opposite from the class its concept, i suppose. For a human in theory you only need 5 wizard levels and 13 intelligence to unlock the demonologist class. And you could potentially leave out the 10th level. Leaving plenty levels available to let your imagination go wild on. |
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| Devil's Elysium | Feb 15 2015, 05:50 AM Post #78 |
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Damp Pope of Eris Discordia
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It's more to do with the lackluster Word of Change form being enough to completely stomp a buffed pet being a declaration of its strength (or lack of) rather than a PvP-based criticism. Even my skeleton warrior occasionally throws out a high-damage crit.
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| Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run, but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant. | |
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| Ceremorph | Feb 15 2015, 06:29 AM Post #79 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Now it gets interesting... you're saying the erinyes is rushing into combat and pulling all the aggro? I just assumed that the "wow this is a tough pet" was because you'd switched her to ranged attacks and she was tearing everyone apart with her bow! I did notice in my "pokemon battle" simulation (where the L3 "Nessian" version beat the L3 Vile Incubus, most normal summons, and the result of the new Dragon Ally spell from the Dragon clerical domain) that she always fired off mirror image first, and the L3 spawn would fire off her second protective spell the instant she got hit. What I'm looking at is several tweaks: a lowering of hit points to match those gained by other summons (probably 25% of base), and giving the L1 a lesser magical protection; also a minor tweak for the L3. I also think I'll be doing a major rework on the Incubi, swapping out its FB levels for something less AI-retarded so it can jump right into the battle. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Aslya | Feb 15 2015, 10:03 AM Post #80 |
Blood
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Anything about the fact that she start to be lacking on the Abyss, though still useful to an extent if very well buffed, but is 100% worthless on Porphatys ? Also, if you plan to make the progression curve smoother, do remember that the feedback you get are from humans. An ECL +6 would, I think, be totally gimped by such modifications on the Erinye. Honestly, I hardly see how to nerf her, even slightly, without making the whole thing not worth it anymore. She get in line quickly, as she does not gain levels with your char; it's very comparable to high ECL races, in the end. Nerfing the first erinye, buffing the last sounds like a solution; but again, the problem is that he first erinye nerfing would be a hard hit to high ECL races. Also, why change the favored ennemies ? Aren't they are fine as they are ? She don't get a stellar AB, so it do help some, without making her a powerhouse. The other solution is hard to imagine, since it's basically reworking the whole thing from stratch: making those summons the like of companions, though scaling with your total char level, but keeping the "three forms" concept. That would smooth the curve and imply an epic level scaling. But again, hard to imagine; too much work. [Edit] After some tests, I take back what I said. She's not worthless from Porphatys on; she's worthless from Lake of Fire on on GC. Since Yesterday, I was in a team, so she was looking fine. But solo... Human lvl 26, and I cannot even solo a pocket of mobs with her and a summoned hezrou buffed. In the end, I'm better using her as a decoy I sacrifice and blast the mobs with Mechanus canon, even though I'm LE. Or Divine Power + Shapechange. And I outdo the Erynie by far. Another build, same lvl, not even cheesy, would easily solo there and without downtimes; and you can see a lot of them doing it to rack some gold in. [Edit] My best results (I didn't say good) in the abyss are with the Erynie set to melee only and me doing the tanking in horned devil shape. One minute trick, with divine power. I can kill isolated fiends; not the big pockets. And that's because I want to make use of the pet. I could just go and Banishment the hell out of the Abyss. |
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| Ceremorph | Feb 15 2015, 04:08 PM Post #81 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Aslya, I do want to point out the one thing wrong there... you're in Gatecrasher mode, which is meant to be "hard mode". Any balancing is going to be based on how things work in the default mode, just like balancing is also going to be based on the standard OC races, not the high LA races. So the follow-up questions: 1. Buffed in the abyss in standard mode, how does she do? 2. How does she stack up in the same area to the summons from Summon Monster VIII and IX? I'd also take power vs. duration into account as well. The Binder of Fiends summon is permanent (until death), so it really shouldn't be on the same class as what you get with, say, a Gate spell. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Jambi | Feb 15 2015, 06:21 PM Post #82 |
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Sorry im not sure if this was directed at me. But no, she does not rush into combat herself. But being invisible as the demonologist and having you partymembers out of sight. You can trigger spawns, and the monsters will have nothing too attack but your Erinyes. Wait for a bit, until all the monsters are trying too kill the pet. Then have the party go ham Bigger npc's like ice giants at low level. can be done easier by sending in your summoned creature first, too tank and die. While the Erinyes shoots her arrows. Frankly my own experience by playing a human demonologist, not only confirmed my the observations i had when Aslya was playing hers. But made me think it is actually more powerfull then i had experienced the first time. Note: Im not questioning her gameplay or stroking my own. Ice Plane Buffs i didnt see in the first walk thru with Aslya were for example Enlargen Person, Cats Grace, Displacement, Rage. Correct me if im wrong. - A wild thought i had yesterday, wich is a long shot. Perhaps introduce a 4th pet at level 10, instead of the immunities. The immunities are nice, but in my idea not worth taking a level for, especially on ECL toons. The 4th tier pet, will be unequipped dus weaker then the 3rd and perhaps 2nd tier. But higher statistics. But it will require more thought... Too make up for that, you can actually manage the inventory of the 4th pet, giving it armor and weapons and such from your own inventory. Being able to customize the pets strenght accordingly too where your hunting. Think Diablo 2 Hecnhman if that makes sense. But that will aquire alot of work, and im not even sure if thats even possible within the games engine. This will drain some of the gold the demonologist has gotten from earlier levels, by not having too spend much. Wich in return would scale with other classes that are reliable on equipment, in gold income / spending. On a note for high ECL races picking up demonologist. The pet scales diffrently in strenght then it would for a human, clearly. But a higher ECL character would also be able to contribute more, given higher base stats, AB/ AC and perhaps a good ability. A vampire for instance. Talking about non Abyss content. |
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| lookslikerain | Feb 15 2015, 08:25 PM Post #83 |
Prime
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Hold on here. You're claiming that say, an ECL +8 succubus sorcerer/demonologist at level 9 (17) can somehow come close to what an actual human sorcerer/demonologist at an actual level of 17 can do? I don't think so. AB? The human will have 2 attacks per round, BAB 8, succubus 1, BAB 4. Neither is going to invest heavily in strength or dex, and the succubus only has +2 str and dex. AC? IF the succubus has lots of money to enhance all her equipment, yes she can get higher personal AC, but NONE of it will be able to come from spells because she only has caster level 8 spells (easy to dispel!), which also means buffs are far weaker on the pet. HP will be about half. The human could have spent a feat on toughness easily to match the succubus +2 con. She may or may not have done that by then. Spells per day? The succubus still loses, overall, because the human has many more spell levels worth of spells to play with. On an individual spell level basis, sure the succubus probably has more casts per day of magic missile than the human, but she only has up to level 4 spells, and a single level 4 spell to play with at that. The human should have up to level 7 spells. The succubus spell DCs are really quite good with her charisma, but are they good enough to matter, especially when flinging lower level spells at higher level monsters with higher saves, spell resistance and the like? Probably not, but the succubus is also an extreme case here. Nothing else gets DC's approaching a succubus due to her charisma, yet she still has very few spells to play with, and probably no metamagic. Any buffs are not attack spells. Any attack spells are not buffs. Her spell resist? Likely worthless for fighting things twice her level. The other resists? The human can easily make up for it by having much higher saves from the higher levels, and having better spells, like say energy immunity which the succubus has no access to yet. And finally, the succubus kiss? Since the succubus is always fighting far above her level, she can't ever dominate anything with it, only charm, and the DC is hampered by her low levels and the high level monsters much higher saves, as well as needing to make a touch attack which is hampered by her very low AB. High ECL absolutely destroys casters in my estimation, which I think is why I see very few high ECL races at high levels on the server, caster or otherwise. It isn't very good for non casters either. Just to make a point look at an ECL +4 half fiend which isn't a high ECL, but it still falls behind a human. They get +4 strength and +4 dex. A human gets 4 levels of AB over them whether dex or strength based, that still translates to at least a +1 better AB if they are a 3/4 class, and in most cases can just step up their armor to match the dex. The +1 natural armor bonus is only a bonus at certain level ranges due to tumble, and ultimately the half fiend can't get 30 tumble if it is a class that can get 30 tumble. Of course the half fiend does get a 2-3 point damage bonus from the strength over the human. Skills, what is that half fiend rogue doing compared to a human? With +4 int they get 1 more skill point per level than a human, 2 more than most no ECL races. But, they are 4 levels behind in applying those skills. The +4 dex, for example, gives them +2 to hide/move silent, but the -4 levels gives them -4 for a net total of -2. The human might lose a point or two for being in worse armor in that case, but for most rogues that is not an issue at the higher levels, and most skills don't have that issue. For UMD, the +2 charisma still leaves them 3 points behind the human. And for hit points, the half fiend is always 4 levels behind. That is, for a 3/4 or full BAB class, between 24-48 hit points less than a human. For a level 26 half fiend, the +2 con gives them 26 more HP, which if they are rogue with 6 HP/level gives them a 2 hit point advantage over the human. For a barbarian at 12 HP/level, they are still 22 points behind. The point is simply that no, ECL races do not end up making the difference in their levels in terms of spells, AB, HP, etc. They have other abilities like resistances and DR that help them out, but in terms of things like caster ability, skills, and AB, they are pretty much always behind, and I would believe those are more often the deciding factors. End tangent. |
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| Ceremorph | Feb 15 2015, 09:17 PM Post #84 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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I've created a modification for the demonologist class which will effect their summons, as well as doing away with the "feather" unsummoning device and replacing it with an additional feat that performs the same function. This will appear next update. Features: * Minor alterations made to the Erinyes summons * Incubus summons made equivalent in class levels and features to Erinyes summons * Unsummoning feat added to class; drag to hotbar to use * "Blue feather" unsummoner creation removed * Fourth-tier pet available when total levels (all class levels + LA) equal 25 or more AND character has 9 levels of Demonologist Once that's live our in-game demonologists can test the new features out. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Jambi | Feb 16 2015, 12:41 AM Post #85 |
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What you are saying, makes alot of sense and i agree with it. But you are misunderstanding what i am trying to say. I never compared humans to high ECL's too be equally, nor did i compare builds what a human or high ECL can pull off and what not. And im also not talking about end game comparisons between all of the above. I did not say the contribution of a high ECL compares equally too the strenght of a human demonologist. You probably missed the last line where i state:"
Too elaborate: What i am talking about is picking the PrC up. (aka working towards it , picking it up.. not having all the demonologist levels already) The human will get it sooner then a high ECL when raced for it, and it most likely be easier gameplay for a human, since stronger pets are unlocked sooner... wich in order unlocks leveling in higher difficulty. But most high ECL inherit enough stats / abilities that contribute to be strong enough to work towards the PrC. Some ECL's are strong enough too start off in Brux, even when starting out as a wizard. It will take longer, but its doable. A Demonologist does not need as many levels / feats / skill etc as some other PrC's require. It is not like you need the amount of requirements needed for a Weapon Master, while playing as a wizard... now that would be a problem for most high ECL races... and makes the inherit stat/ability etc contribution deminish quickly as he needs too take more levels while relying on them. But since this is not the case, picking up demonologist is worth it, and the lower tier pets strong enough too help out when unlocked, and your in an area designated for your level and playing on the default difficulty. But yeah, going over the top by picking Devil, Paeliryon for example and unlock the pet at 12+9 or something. i wouldnt recommend. lets stay reasonable Hopefully that clears things up. |
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| Jambi | Feb 16 2015, 01:37 AM Post #86 |
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Jeez.. such a simple, yet perfect solution. I wish i would stop over-thinking stuff to often :lol: |
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| Tubbles | Feb 16 2015, 02:56 AM Post #87 |
Prime
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I guess one of my few complaints with the class so far is that I wish it was some sort of Expert Summoner PrC that was open to all alignments, with the alignment you choose dictating what cohort you get. I just love that Summoning Mastery feat and it makes me sad that only Evil characters can get it. |
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| Ceremorph | Feb 16 2015, 04:28 AM Post #88 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Tubbles, I can't make any promises about summoning, but it may cheer you up that after I've finished my rework of the summons tables, I'm planning some nice things for the not-evil among us. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Plaxy100 | Feb 16 2015, 09:45 AM Post #89 |
Does not infact have a Greybeard
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just a nitpick Bard demonoligist did not gain a familiar at level 2 like it says I should I wants me quasit. |
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GMT: -8. Player Tag: Plaxy100 Steamtag: Plaxy186 Characters: Merrium Pinklily (The Red Death Hin) Brandon Burnfire (Master Evoker) Zinex (half lune warlock) Sssylvgh (Yuan-ti Arcane trickster) Timothy Jack (Bard of the Fated) | |
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| Agony_Aunt | Feb 16 2015, 11:51 AM Post #90 |
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Get a Life
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Should it? http://sigil-nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Demonologist Is the wiki wrong, or some other source? |
| Stepped down as admin, but still lurking. | |
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