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| Are Player Characters Exceptional? | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM (1,405 Views) | |
| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM Post #1 |
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Greybeard
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I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but I can't seem to find the threads, so I'm putting this out there. I've heard that the non-elemental outsiders are alignment locked and I thought that was sort of weird. I know, there are lots of people who think that an Outsider should be defined by it's nature and not it's nature defined by it's self, but that just simply hasn't been true over the years with the source material. One of my favorite examples of this would be Trias the Betrayer from Planescape: Torment. He is a Deva that is decidedly not such a good guy. He obviously isn't bound by the notion that his alignment is set by the nature of his being. Of course you can argue that he represents one of the extremely small majority of Outsiders that defy the otherwise standard rule of business in the planes, and I'd agree with you. So really my question is, do PC's represent these kinds of characters? Are we the exceptions that prove the rule? If so, alignment locking makes no sense. I get that people feel that there are "too many" exceptions that run around just because they can, but is that really true? 45+ players or so that in one way or another break the mold, in the great scope of things, is not that many. I'm sure there are millions of Succubuses, so if ten of them turn out to be chaotic good, that's still a heck of a small percentage. It just seems like a lot because people want to naturally play with each other, so you get a somewhat weird gathering of such beings in places like the Bazaar. That probably wouldn't be the case if Sigil was filled with the thousands upon thousands of unique characters you could interact with that should really exist. Anyway, this isn't really a self serving post, because I rarely play anything but humans and have virtually no interest in +ECL races. It just struck me as being a bit hypocritical to force anyone into an alignment when clearly there are exceptions. Unless of course we don't, as players, represent that special breed from which characters like Trias the Betrayer are pulled from. If so, that's fine I guess, but also a little bit disappointing too. I like thinking of myself as a special flower.
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 06:37 AM Post #2 |
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Greybeard
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I'll just say I'm not going to beat this like a dead horse ( ), perhaps specifically because it really no impact on my future characters. It just felt like it was an odd choice to implement is all. If you guys just say Nope!, I'll be satisfied enough, even if I think it's a bit silly.
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| Miraie | Sep 9 2015, 06:37 AM Post #3 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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There are a few rules in place to make player characters a bit less special. Locking outsiders within 1 step of their supposed alignment is one of them. It is basically a saturation thing. If you only meet good-aligned devils, there is a chance things might get a bit jarring serverside. Even though lore contains countless standard archetypes of the outsiders players represent with their characters. The consensus surrounding the above rule is that even one step from an outsider's intended alignment is a massive difference in their outlook. There are some grandfathered outsiders who are further removed (the alignment lock was enforced mechanically only recently). Furthermore, your character level is technically only half of what you have for RP purposes. So most characters would be around level 15 for campaign purposes - well below many Factols in power, not to mention some more powerful extraplanar entities. You still get to RP your mechanical abilities, though. |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 06:59 AM Post #4 |
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Greybeard
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The read I get form that would be that, no, we aren't Trias the Betrayers. No Elminsters. No Drizzts. At best we might be Uncommons, but not Rares. That's kind of depressing in a way. Ah well, I'll deal. |
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| Miraie | Sep 9 2015, 07:01 AM Post #5 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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Uncommons sounds like a good way to describe it. Not the norm, but not Big Damn Heroes either. Your character concept is as special as you make it, of course. You could be a normal level 1 human struggling with a bad temper despite her kind nature. That could be an unique and interesting character. (Although events may alter this a bit. I prefer low key things, but there are also events where the fate of entire Primes is at stake.) |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| Mander | Sep 9 2015, 07:06 AM Post #6 |
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Elder Lich
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This is a good thing. |
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| Miraie | Sep 9 2015, 07:08 AM Post #7 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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Arguably so. I'd prefer us all to be level 3, but that might be a tad extreme. Especially since D&D is not fun at all with low level characters. A rogue who fails more often than not is not really a professional at the pocketing of picks. Alas! Being level 15 in canon and getting access to level 30 builds is nifty in a Planescape setting. Probably. : o |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 07:22 AM Post #8 |
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Greybeard
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Well, a good chunk of the characters, from a level and ability perspective, are WAY better than Drizzt. I was simply speaking from a 'specialness" pint of view. I don't share your love of the old school concepts of characters. You know, like, Drow must all be plotting villainesses, or all Gold Dragons are cantankerous forces for good. I general dislike most stereotypes, other than the "exception to the rule" stereotype, which I love. Different strokes for different fokes. |
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| Mander | Sep 9 2015, 07:24 AM Post #9 |
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Elder Lich
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kk. |
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| Alersia | Sep 9 2015, 09:31 AM Post #10 |
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Retired Builder
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If you start to play in such a lore heavy realm you have expectations to this realm. You expect the lich in front of you to suck your soul away if you do something wrong. If he/she instead hands you a flower and invites you to a drink you will be dissappointed because its not what you were looking for. I think its a good thing to have alignment restrictions on outsider. I even would go further and restrict Undeads and Aberrations to Evil only and Giants to evil and neutral. However as example: if someone wants to play a Baelnorn (good lich) the player should be allowed to do that but has first to whrite a detailed character biography to show that she is well aware of her doing. And secondary, we have EM/DMs that shift your alignment based on your actions. So you start evil but might turn to good someday. A roleplayed alignment shift is a good thing I think. |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 09:40 AM Post #11 |
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Greybeard
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So wait, what if you make an Outsider but don't play it's alignment, does that mean you'll just shift eventually to fit the alignment you wanted all along? Seems rather pointless really, other than restricting a few class combinations. I'm Ravus the Deva. I'm Lawful Good, but I hunt children and make cloaks from their skin. You might say that is a Chaotic Evil act and would pretty much make me Chaotic Evil, but not until a DM makes it so. |
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| Verdana | Sep 9 2015, 09:46 AM Post #12 |
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Blood
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I also support gradual alignment change. Simply starting the game and making a Lawful Good Succubus Paladin at level 1 is a bit silly. But I'm supporting a Succubus that might start Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral and then with RP turned Chaotic Good. Then, with some more RP turning to Neutral Good and finally Lawful Good. Finally, remaking the character and being a Lawful Good Succubus Paladin. In the case of opposite side, fallen Celestials, they would have to have experienced, seen, lived and tempted to the Dark Side so to speak to turn Evil. Why gradual is important? Because no outsider wakes up one day and decides to be good. It's not a choice like deciding what to wear, it's a conscious effort. And that is represented with character development which is RP. |
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Izmiara the Insatiable - Charming, Polite, Sensual, Vicious, Courtesan Meskhenet - Atoning, Purposeful, Exalted, Mummified, Priestess Valana - Unholy, Bloodthirsty, Arcane, Flirty, Jasidin Iseriah - Versatile, Sneaky, Infernal, Mercenary, Huntress | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 09:51 AM Post #13 |
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Greybeard
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This supposes the idea that when you make an Outsider, or I guess any character really, that this character is essentially just getting started and hasn't had any previous story. Some characters, like my wizard Ziguard Selten, had an extremely extensive back story before I ever started here. In fact, I had played him on Prime world within a nwn 1 framework for almost 3 years prior to coming to here. Some people enjoy starting from the beginning, but many already have long standing backgrounds. Are you suggesting people shouldn't start with those? |
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| Miraie | Sep 9 2015, 09:54 AM Post #14 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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Although even gradual alignment shift requires a plot and some OOC tweaking to happen. Otherwise you will not be able to enter the game. The 1 step rule is enforced mechanically, after all. You can actually create a lawful succubus, but you won't be able to play her. It is often the case that things that happen in game have more weight than a character's background. |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 09:59 AM Post #15 |
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Greybeard
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I actually found the thread just now that his probably belongs in, which was Special Race and alignment in the Q&A section, so I assume this will probably get closed off or deleted soon. I'll just leave off saying that as long as there are characters in lore that serve as exceptions to the rule, it's silly to enforce a standard. That's all, I'm done, thanks for the input, I'll mosey over to that other thread I mentioned and read up on that one. |
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), perhaps specifically because it really no impact on my future characters. It just felt like it was an odd choice to implement is all. If you guys just say Nope!, I'll be satisfied enough, even if I think it's a bit silly.


2:10 PM Jul 11