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| Are Player Characters Exceptional? | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM (1,411 Views) | |
| Verdana | Sep 9 2015, 10:01 AM Post #16 |
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Blood
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Only by DM approval and writing a detailed backstory, explaining to the DMs what made that character not be their typical alignment of their race. Like in PnP, it's up to the DM to decide how exceptional a character can be. |
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Izmiara the Insatiable - Charming, Polite, Sensual, Vicious, Courtesan Meskhenet - Atoning, Purposeful, Exalted, Mummified, Priestess Valana - Unholy, Bloodthirsty, Arcane, Flirty, Jasidin Iseriah - Versatile, Sneaky, Infernal, Mercenary, Huntress | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 11:15 AM Post #17 |
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Greybeard
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Ah, well, that would totally screw my main character since I've been using his extensive background as a source of role play since 2012 or so. Also, I don't care for writing up stories in the forums which is why I never posted his absurdly long winded and elaborate background there. I'm sure I'm far from the only person who doesn't really like to role play via board posts. |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 11:18 AM Post #18 |
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Greybeard
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I also don't really agree with the idea that the DM's get to decide how exceptional a character ultimately is. But I guess I don't really care if no one else acknowledges the story thing that my character did that one time that I thought was awesome. |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Sep 9 2015, 11:33 AM Post #19 |
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The problem stems down from PnP single focus group design vs Persistent World masses design. Trias the Betrayer makes sense in a PnP, he is an exception. 23 Trias the Betrayers are harder to chew and clouds players views of how species 'should' be, so in a PW this doesn't function well. Star Wars The Old Republic is an example how easy-anomaly tropes make the world hard to immerse with, every consular has first lightsaber ever etc... try roleplaying that for a while and it gets old ![]() We've mitigated some possibilities by removing easy-anomaly tropes, so people will instead have to work for alignment shifting. |
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Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 11:45 AM Post #20 |
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Greybeard
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My point is that 23 Trias the Betrayers is probably not that statistically out of line given how large the planes and multiverse is in general. It only feels that way because players can usually only interact with other players, who also tend towards "snowflake-ism". If there was a fully realized dynamic Sigil filled with interact-able characters, most of whom aren't of the special variety, it would not be that noticeable or weird. |
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| Alersia | Sep 9 2015, 11:49 AM Post #21 |
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Retired Builder
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Thats the Approval is meaned for. So you can start your char with the proper alignment.
Why do you think that? If you like you could send me a PM if you dont want to explain it openly. |
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| Mick64 | Sep 9 2015, 12:10 PM Post #22 |
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As far as I know, there is no background write-up required for anything. There was for the old special races system, but that one's long gone. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| Mr_Otyugh | Sep 9 2015, 12:16 PM Post #23 |
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It is statistically unlikely that they all would be in Sigil the same time. Exceptions exist and they also exist as exceptions, not the rule. If you want to play a good character, you don't need to be a fiend to play one, vice versa for celestials. On my experience multiple out of norm characters is more detrimental to RP and used to justify further exceptions causing lore to be ever less meaningful. When players are the majority population representing the world, they're also indirectly representing statistical expectation of rest of the multiverse. And yes that is a thing, just ask opinions of factions etc, most of those are shaped by player presentation. Old characters won't be changed if they're already made. |
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Time Zones - Alignments - Name Generator NWN 2 Mechanics - PnP Mechanics - Dice Roller Character Builder - 2nd edition Monster Database - Monster Finder In-case of problems: Click Here | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 12:19 PM Post #24 |
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Greybeard
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Alersia, that quote about my character being screwed by having to write up a backstory wasn't directed at anything you said. I was just saying, if I had to write up a backstory in order to reference events from it, my character Ziguard would be screwed, because I've been referencing events from his history on a different server for a long long time. The example I gave of Ravus was in regards to the comment that the DM's will change alignment, and that the alignment of outsiders can shift based on story and in-character deeds. My point was, the game engine might force me to start out Lawful Good as a Deva, but my actions may always be reflective of someone who is chaotic evil. If you can do that, what's the point of alignment limiting? The only thing that really affects are a few class choices and how a few spells work against you. Does it matter if the universe itself considers me to be Lawful Good if my character always does awful things in character? The alternative here is that you'd have to have DM's and EM's police role play of Outsiders and say "Ok, you can tend toward darkness, but not by too much at a time, it's got to be gradual!" I don't see the point of doing that. |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 12:23 PM Post #25 |
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Greybeard
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Now, what I know some people have said and prefer are that Outsiders are just personified forces. And that's fine, but you shouldn't be able to play a personified force. That's not a character any more than a forest fire is a character. You can't really role play an entity lacking free-will. |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 12:26 PM Post #26 |
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Greybeard
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If Sigil is as big as I've been led to believe it is, I don't think it would be statistically that unlikely for all those snowflakes to be in Sigil at the same time. It would just be unlikely for them to all converge in the same areas. But that's simply a limitation of the game engine and not reflective of what the actual odds of having several exceptions to the rule in the same city would be. |
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| Brindas | Sep 9 2015, 12:30 PM Post #27 |
Greybeard
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They are personified forces, but that doesn't preclude free will. It indicates a natural pull towards their alignment at all time. Anything deviating from that would be very hard, a struggle and possibly have side effects long term. That is what outsiders are, and that cannot really be redefined. That being said it DOES NOT preclude them from changing (Even if in character my characters would think it it does). It does preclude them from being "just another paladin". |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 12:41 PM Post #28 |
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Greybeard
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A force is not something that can change it's personality. Outsiders are either a force, or they have a strong nature that entices them to act toward certain norms. If it's the latter, that means they do have free will, and there is truly no reason why they can't start out any alignment. Simply saying that they couldn't have the willpower or motivation to do otherwise really isn't good enough - a character has as much willpower as a player gives them, and their motivation is whatever the player wants them to have. Unless you role-play police, you can't stop or really even effectively argue that. All you can do is set into place mechanical limitations that really don't do much at all. Lol, I'm doing a lot of arguing over a subject that I have no personal vestment in. I guess it bothers me because it seems irrational overall. |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 12:46 PM Post #29 |
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Greybeard
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I feel like the argument has now become "You shouldn't be able to start outside the norm." rather than you can't go outside the norm. Everyone I've ever known who went outside the norm was always outside the norm - they were just inside the norm trying to fit in. They intrinsically, for one reason or another, just had different thoughts, feelings and experiences. You see this in most stories as well, where the snowflake character just wants to be like everyone else, but can't manage it because...they are a special snowflake. It's just who they are. |
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| Brindas | Sep 9 2015, 12:55 PM Post #30 |
Greybeard
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My argument is the same as ever. If you don't roleplay a unique outsider that correctly it messes with nearly every character that interacts with them in a way that makes the game significantly less fun. It also doesn't make sense in the case of outsiders except the bottom rung to "just be different". Mud slaadi and monodrones, which incidentally, in pen and paper are very fluid in alignment and have more exceptions than other races. The reason I say this is a very different outsider would never get promoted into the higher forms of their respective races - and in the case of Erineyes, they wouldn't have fallen in the first place. Anything different that has worked their way up like that DID experience an event that changed them, or they wouldn't continuously be promoted by Hellish hierarchy or the entropic yet malevolent forces that rule the Abyss. Nor the Celestial Host of whatever flavor. It generally works better when change happens in character and in server. And it's hard enough for a human to significantly change, but it does happen. I wouldn't rule out outsiders, but again, I have never seen anyone play the struggle. I've seen fiends who loudly proclaim "IM GOOD!" and cast good aligned spells in front of people going SEE?!?! SEE!??!?! Which , by the way, makes you look like someone intentionally trying to fool everyone. |
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