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Are Player Characters Exceptional?
Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM (1,409 Views)
Brindas
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Greybeard
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coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:48 PM
I don't ever get tired of seeing those types of characters. And if anything, the straight lace characters, in my opinion, make the best npcs, not the weird ones. PC's should always be the weird ones, that way I have a chance to interact with them more often.

We must have interacted with a different set of characters I guess. Because this all came down a few months ago when there were fiends literally just acting like good human beings. I've only played here since January, so maybe some rped a fallen angel or a good fiend really well before that?
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coyotesage
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A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things. Never.
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Alersia
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Quote:
 
Quote:
 
(Darkrob @ Sep 9 2015, 02:13 PM)
For me, Good Abyssals and evil celestials simply break the immersion. I've little interest in Demons and devils handing out flowers and I've little interest in seeing Celestials randomly killing innocents. Yes, it's possible but when the city is flooded with them... it completely and utterly ruins it for me.


I'm sorry you feel that way. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about it. The less expected and weirder, the more I get into it.


You like when someone behaves unexpected?

Will it stay unexpected if you see 10/10 fiends handing out flowers? No.
Will it stay unexpected if you see 10/10 fiends trying to murder you? No.
Will it stay unexpected if you see 2/10 fiends handing out flowers while the rest tries to murder you? Yes.

The restriction will make sure that there are no 10/10 fiends handing you out flowers
A approval would make sure that you can still get two flowers from fiends . And when it happens you will be exited. If everyone does it, it might get boring.

coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:56 PM
A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things.  Never.


It might be fun if they all meet each other but I wouldnt call that "roleplay".

Just my two cents.
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coyotesage
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Brindas,Sep 9 2015
02:53 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:48 PM
I don't ever get tired of seeing those types of characters.  And if anything, the straight lace characters, in my opinion, make the best npcs, not the weird ones.  PC's should always be the weird ones, that way I have a chance to interact with them more often.

We must have interacted with a different set of characters I guess. Because this all came down a few months ago when there were fiends literally just acting like good human beings. I've only played here since January, so maybe some rped a fallen angel or a good fiend really well before that?

Ah well, the truth is, only a few have dared to be as eccentric as my characters. I stopped playing for a long time because the player base had fallen off, but also there was a lack of interesting characters/things happening. There is a good chance we never rp'ed together, and probably a good chance my characters would annoy you I'm afraid.
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Brindas
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coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:56 PM
A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things.  Never.

None of those things are outsiders which are mostly what I was talking about, though.

A troll can be any alignment if they get enough reinforcement to be good in life.
Golems with personalities tend towards hilarity.

I love the idea of an undead doctor. (Though that doesn't preclude being evil!)

None of what you listed there is innately silly to me.
Like anything, it depends on how they portray such and have a decent reason for them. If so, I'm all on board with them.
But not many here are against good goblins etc. It's mostly the outsider stuff... unless I'm missing something.

If someone actually is railing against goblins, trolls, etc having free will, I'll gladly join you against them.
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coyotesage
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Alersia,Sep 9 2015
02:57 PM
Quote:
 
Quote:
 
(Darkrob @ Sep 9 2015, 02:13 PM)
For me, Good Abyssals and evil celestials simply break the immersion. I've little interest in Demons and devils handing out flowers and I've little interest in seeing Celestials randomly killing innocents. Yes, it's possible but when the city is flooded with them... it completely and utterly ruins it for me.


I'm sorry you feel that way. That's almost the exact opposite of how I feel about it. The less expected and weirder, the more I get into it.


You like when someone behaves unexpected?

Will it stay unexpected if you see 10/10 fiends handing out flowers? No.
Will it stay unexpected if you see 10/10 fiends trying to murder you? No.
Will it stay unexpected if you see 2/10 fiends handing out flowers while the rest tries to murder you? Yes.

The restriction will make sure that there are no 10/10 fiends handing you out flowers
A approval would make sure that you can still get two flowers from fiends . And when it happens you will be exited. If everyone does it, it might get boring.

coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:56 PM
A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things.  Never.


It might be fun if they all meet each other but I wouldnt call that "roleplay".

Just my two cents.

Just mandating an alignment will not necessarily guarantee anything if the person playing that evil fiend never does anything evil. This is why I keep saying, unless you guys start role-play policing, alignment restrictions don't do anything but limit a few class combos.
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coyotesage
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Brindas,Sep 9 2015
02:59 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:56 PM
A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things.  Never.

None of those things are outsiders which are mostly what I was talking about, though.

A troll can be any alignment if they get enough reinforcement to be good in life.
Golems with personalities tend towards hilarity.

I love the idea of an undead doctor. (Though that doesn't preclude being evil!)

None of what you listed there is innately silly to me.
Like anything, it depends on how they portray such and have a decent reason for them. If so, I'm all on board with them.
But not many here are against good goblins etc. It's mostly the outsider stuff... unless I'm missing something.

If someone actually is railing against goblins, trolls, etc having free will, I'll gladly join you against them.

Those were examples off the top of my head, but I"ll give you some more Outsider related examples.

A Deva that secretly spreads diseases and refuses to heal mortals under the misguided belief it makes them stronger.
A Succubus wanting to adopt a dwarf baby and wanting to be a stay at home mom and part time school teacher.
A demon realizing the blood war is pointless and trying to convince his bretheren to take up knitting.

I could go on all day. All of those concepts are more interesting than the standard.
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Brindas
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coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:05 PM
Brindas,Sep 9 2015
02:59 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
02:56 PM
A troll that loves kids and wants to build and orphanage,
A unicorn with urban sensibilities and a deep seated hate for nature
A Iron Golem that really thinks it's an 8 year old girl,
A drider with an intense phobia of spiders,
A Dragon who is depressed and thinks other races are superior to it,
A vampire who's mission it is to heal the sick and injured...

I Never get tired of those kinds of things.  Never.

None of those things are outsiders which are mostly what I was talking about, though.

A troll can be any alignment if they get enough reinforcement to be good in life.
Golems with personalities tend towards hilarity.

I love the idea of an undead doctor. (Though that doesn't preclude being evil!)

None of what you listed there is innately silly to me.
Like anything, it depends on how they portray such and have a decent reason for them. If so, I'm all on board with them.
But not many here are against good goblins etc. It's mostly the outsider stuff... unless I'm missing something.

If someone actually is railing against goblins, trolls, etc having free will, I'll gladly join you against them.

Those were examples off the top of my head, but I"ll give you some more Outsider related examples.

A Deva that secretly spreads diseases and refuses to heal mortals under the misguided belief it makes them stronger.
A Succubus wanting to adopt a dwarf baby and wanting to be a stay at home mom and part time school teacher.
A demon realizing the blood war is pointless and trying to convince his bretheren to take up knitting.

I could go on all day. All of those concepts are more interesting than the standard.

I guess I'll never understand the thinking that "different" equals "interesting". if you need a gimmick to make your character interesting, it's usually not a very good character. I have gimmicky characters, and let me tell you... they're fun for a week or two.

Then I move on and play something else. In the outsider examples, I don't find them interesting. I question as my good cleric why the Deva hasn't fallen yet. Which puts my good cleric in a bad place - either my deity and everything I stand for is wrong.... or I alert the DM team and bad blood happens. I can't *ignore* something like that. Outsiders are like clerics: they have a duty to represent, at least in part, what their being is, because it isn't just about them. They are a piece of the world. If they want to play an exception they need to do it right, with forethought, and careful planning, not just "okay here I go!". I have never actually seen that happen. Their roleplay directly affects the world and other people around them based on what they are. If they don't like that, there are tons of other races to choose from.

It's the same as if I made a Pelor cleric who murdered babies. It's stupid and it puts real Pelorites in a bad spot because I made a bad choice.

In short: Outsiders being played incorrectly are wrong because you mess with other, unrelated people's roleplay, and I find that highly rude to do so. It's like if I logged in as a DM and just randomly ruled that murder was a good action. It messes with every pc that exists for no good reason. Outsiders are what they are, and good and evil are defined in D&D. A slight variation isn't a huge problem. Tableflipping alignment for no reason leads to confused priests, followers, and shallow humanlike outsiders.
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coyotesage
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It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence. :confused:
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Brindas
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coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:23 PM
It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions. I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that. Probably why I also never play clerics. I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence. :confused:

I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.

Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.
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coyotesage
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Brindas,Sep 9 2015
03:26 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:23 PM
It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions.  I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that.  Probably why I also never play clerics.  I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.  :confused:

I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.

Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.

It doesn't have to break down at all. I've run many pen and paper campaigns using the basic d&d 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th and 5th edition rules without requiring alignments and there has never been a problem. Fully realized characters are way too complicated for the simple alignment system to properly categorize a person that they really aren't even worth using. It just all depends on how you look at it I suppose.
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coyotesage
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Brindas,Sep 9 2015
03:26 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:23 PM
It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions.  I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that.  Probably why I also never play clerics.  I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.  :confused:

I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.

Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.

Well it really is in some sense a debate about metaphysics. Because while I can't play a Lawful Good Succubus or a Succubus Paladin, I can play a Succubus who acts for all intents and purposes as Lawful Good and can be nearly any other class. It seems to be established that the only thing that's being limited is the mechanical use of alignments, not the policing of character personalities.
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Brindas
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I agree... but that's also kind of my point. Fully realized character. It doesn't seem like any of the fallen celestials or redeemed fiends are that at all. They're just being different, that isn't a concept. They aren't taking into account any of the psychology or society of those creatures nor rping any difficulty in being whatever they've changed into. They don't feel remorse, like they should be fitting in but aren't, nothing. The only fallen celestial I knew brazenly made stuff up about the archons and angels all actually being evil (they aren't).

The fiends just were happy go lucky everythings fine and "I'll be damned if you dare tell me I'm anything other than a perfectly holy being".
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Mick64
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Well, the system can very much work without alignements, or moreso with alternate alignment systems (I have a soft spot for the Color Wheel) or interpretations (Eberon was mentioned). The thing is alignment is also a very important part of the NWN2 engine, and any alternate system would be very complex to implement.
Scripter.

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I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too.
Countless, ever-changing alts.
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Brindas
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coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:35 PM
Brindas,Sep 9 2015
03:26 PM
coyotesage,Sep 9 2015
03:23 PM
It's probably easier for me because I never play a character that believes in good or evil as anything other than elusive concepts created by minds to justify actions.  I know that in the game there is a such a thing as good and evil, but my characters simply don't believe in that.  Probably why I also never play clerics.  I doubt I could convincingly play a truly good or evil character as defined by the game, because I myself strongly believe what I said in my first sentence.   :confused:

I guess, but if I wanted a world like that I'd go outside... D&D badly breaks down into nonsense without it. Alignment is imperfect but D&D was build dependent upon it.

Regardless, this isn't an OOC metaphysical debate on the real world, it's D&D. It is black and white in D&D, and that's why the outsiders being off the wall without well played justification and ramifications cause nothing but disruption.

Well it really is in some sense a debate about metaphysics. Because while I can't play a Lawful Good Succubus or a Succubus Paladin, I can play a Succubus who acts for all intents and purposes as Lawful Good and can be nearly any other class. It seems to be established that the only thing that's being limited is the mechanical use of alignments, not the policing of character personalities.

This is easily solved. Play your alignment. While the rules are "you don't have to play your character sheet" I have heard from every admin, dm, and em i've asked that this DOES NOT APPLY to your alignment. You can "act" good (as in roleplay) in order to fool people. But you can't select "good" and then stab everyone in the back.

What is on your sheet is your "true" alignment. And evil can act good for a while, or even all the time around select people. Chaos can hold itself in check, and law can have a night of debauchery. Good can have a bad day, even, provided bad day isn't "wanton murder". But if you aren't playing your alignment someone eventually WILL ask what's going on with the character. And if you're answer is "I was circumventing the alignment lock" i would not expect a positive response.
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