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| Are Player Characters Exceptional? | |
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| Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM (1,408 Views) | |
| Mr_Otyugh | Sep 9 2015, 03:43 PM Post #61 |
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It is implicit what opinion of those kind of characters is. And it functions as a decent deterrent for people to avoid causing eye muscle issues when the rolling ensues when they realize the implications. Makes them think. |
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| Mick64 | Sep 9 2015, 03:45 PM Post #62 |
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The only issue I see here is that behavior affects your alignment, not vice-versa. Eating babies makes you evil, being evil does not make you want to eat babies. So in this sense how I see it a DM should never tell someone to "act in alignment", rather gradually shift alignment in accordance to how the character acts. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 9 2015, 03:50 PM Post #63 |
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Greybeard
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Well, I will only play the character concept I have in mind and not necessarily be bound by the alignment system. You can change my alignment all day, everyday, and that's fine. I believe that good characters are far too nuanced to be limited by alignment. Also, if you can't play outside your alignment, then you could never really change alignment as an outsider. You would always be exactly what you are, which I think is just bollocks. There is nothing interesting about that. I don't think we are going to come to a meeting of the minds on this one Brindan, because we have almost totally opposite feelings on the subject of what a "well played" character is. |
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| Brindas | Sep 9 2015, 06:30 PM Post #64 |
Greybeard
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You misinterpret my meaning. An evil person can do good acts all day to try and "appear" good near good guys without being good. The opposite, as you've alluded, isn't true. Alignment is dictated by actions AND intentions. A person who screws up all the time but means well is usually good, unless they screw up in a way that screws with souls or something. A person who methodically does good deeds just to make himself look good isn't necessarily good (they still could be, depending on what they use that fame/power to do). And it is not "not vice versa". Your alignment very much indicates how you are likely to respond, and how you respond indicates your alignment. Alignment is generally cyclical. Each individual will have their own exceptions (This good guy has a jealous streak, a greedy streak, or this evil person NEVER hurts children, or tells a direct lie, etc). But generally your alignment indicates your characters "gut" feeling towards many situations. it isn't a straightjacket. You are free to change your alignment and viewpoint... again, it comes down to does it seem like the character is doing that? Is the character struggling when they work their way towards redemption? Even a human who was evil should be, let alone a fiend. Is the falling paladin slowly being driven mad at their descent even as they're convinced their way is the right way? They should be. Characters are living, breathing, evolving things. (And if anyone brings up undead/constructs, you win the technically correct prize, congrats, you know what I mean). it should feel and seem like that. Someone swinging and changing their entire outlook of life should be a challenge, it's not easy, the temptation to slip back to their old self is always there, even if that was a slip from good to evil. Imagine how much more difficult that would be for someone who is MADE of an alignment. I don't even understand the philosophy difference here, I admit. Outsiders are defined as the embodiment of a concept. I will agree they can change, but to do just do so superfluously seems like really bad and thin rp. Edit: I didn't mean you can't do actions outside your alignment, or not change alignment. My main character was LE and is now LG. I mean that you can't intentionally pick the wrong alignment just to circumvent requirements or be immune to smite evil. |
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| Mick64 | Sep 9 2015, 06:41 PM Post #65 |
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I'm curious what you'd make of this then. On another server I had a character, he was a wizard. He was generally a nice (if shy) guy. He'd protect his friends if needed, and even random strangers if there wasn't -too much- risk involved. He enjoyed his power but didn't use it to hurt innocents..... and he was Lawful Evil. Because he was a necromancer, and the raising of undead tainted his soul. He was brought up to think it was a normal thing to do, so he didn't see anything wrong with it. He wasn't pretending to be nice. He was genuinely rather nice. This is what I mean by alignment not influencing actions, but the opposite. His alignment didn't make him do evil things. The one evil thing he did made his alignment evil. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| Brindas | Sep 9 2015, 06:57 PM Post #66 |
Greybeard
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The difference there is that his outlook isn't Evil, the ability he uses is. That is very different from a character with an evil outlook. (Incidentally, you mostly described Brindas on Port of Shadows). Associating with fiends or raising the undead or using this with the [Evil] descriptor will make you evil regardless of intent, because it does. It's useless to apply logic here, and Wizards (and TSR before it) said so. There's no intention, only action. For everything else, however, intention matters. Messing with the soul, working with fiends, making sentient undead, these things are exceptions. Fireball, however, a spell that is generally used to make things not on fire now on fire (lethal to many creatures) is not. Intention absolutely matters here. I cast a fireball on a crowded group of people to kill them all.... chaotic evil, probably. I cast fireball on someone, and a kid was invisible, unbeknownst to me? Not evil. Yes. A kid died. Yes, my good or netural.. or... hell, it's a kid, even my evil characters will probably feel bad about it... but it's not evil. I didn't mean to kill a kid. So the action remains... whatever it was for fireballing the person I intended - anywhere from LG to CE or even not an alignment at all if it was something like warfare. You can add gray if you want, even in D&D. Same situation, someone tells you "watch out, there's kids around that have been made invisible!". Well, ***. But for the most part, that's what i meant. A character can have dilemmas, two characters of the same alignment could come to VERY different conclusions in the above situation with the intelligence. So I guess what I'm saying is that alignment both guides future actions and is determined by previous ones. It does not DEMAND specific future actions, however, which is where I think people start railing against "you can't tell my character what to do". No one (should) be saying that, but your alignment is a good predictor. Well, that came a long way from your example, I guess my answer is "What I said doesn't apply to actions classified as "always evil"." but there's very, very few of those. Also, associating and helping fiends is one of them.. which is another reason it's better to not have fiends running through poppy fields naked with nymphs while breastfeeding orphaned celestials. |
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| Ceremorph | Sep 10 2015, 02:04 AM Post #67 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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What we're getting into here is shades of good and evil, and their impact upon the outer planes. A Genghis Khan-style warlord who slaughters unarmed people simply because they are the "enemy", or a Stalin-like ruler who imprisons and tortures dissenters is undoubtably evil, but the effects of their evil do not transcend the material plane. Both these characters' victims will eventually find their place in their eventual afterlives, and in most cases not even remember the terror of their deaths. On the other hand, a necromancer who occasionally brings back the dead as undead servants, or a member of a demonic cult who murders exactly two people in his life but consigns their non-evil souls to the abyss (or destroys them entirely) are far more evil than the previous two on a planar level. While the first pairs victims lose their lives, the second group's lose eternity. Even a character who simply uses soul prisms to buy a sword is doing more evil in that act than a serial killer can perform in a lifetime. And this applies to good as well. While a Ghandi or a Mother Teresa analogue are undoubtably good, again their goodness is only affecting the material (although bonus points if by their actions they cause others to reform to goodness). The paladin who wages a fight against devils and demons, on the other hand, are doing more for the cause of planar good by saving the souls those creatures would otherwise be harvesting. And as a total aside, calling a Baelnorn a lich is like calling a drow elf a halfling. Aside from one major similarity, all of the details are different. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| coyotesage | Sep 10 2015, 03:36 AM Post #68 |
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Greybeard
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I still don't see what the point of anything being inherently evil or good is. In fact, I find it rather silly, but if that's the case, then so be it. As far as I'm concerned intention and action are all that matter in the spectrum and I'll happily play my Chaotic Evil nicest guy you've ever met who is practically harmless thank you very much. Why is he Chaotic Evil? I don't know, maybe he was messing around with some souls and thought he could improve them or something and accidentally destroyed them instead. Now the cosmos think's hes pure evil. Ok, sure, fine, that's not going to really later the way I play the character. And if it doesn't do that, then really what's the point of the limitation? This is essentially the religious argument. The God said these are good things and these are bad things, irrespective of our own value judgments and beliefs, and it's over-reaching power is what dictates these truths. BUT, if Outsiders are existentially and morphologically linked to the universe's value judgements, and thus change or cease to exist based on not following that, then I suppose it would make sense to limit their alignments, because they can't be what they are without being aligned with the opinion of the universe. As far as why anyone thinks that's interesting...I have no idea. It's almost the most dull thing I can conceive of, even more so than watching my face dry naturally in the mirror over the course of too many hours after a rogue shower went wrong. So very wrong. I'm pretty sure that's the last I have to say on this topic. |
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| Ceremorph | Sep 10 2015, 04:12 AM Post #69 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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A good point, coyote. And really you come down to the differentiation between "Evil" and "Over-the-top Evil" (aka Chaotic Stupid). Sure, when someone says "evil" of course you wind up thinking of your Saurons and Valdemorts and Blofeld stroking his cat, the evil portrayed as a desire to destroy or rule the world. But evil can not only be charismatic, it can also be quite pleasant. Hannibal Lecter is evil, but (especially in the Hopkins portrayal) is also intelligent, witty, and has dozens of friends (only some of whom he eats) before he winds up getting caught... but the willingness to kill (and eat) people who he finds lack manners proves that he's evil. I've played two evil characters on this server, and both of them were nice enough to be around. Only problem was that Rhethys was a Thrall of Graz'zt (CE simply by becoming such, not to mention all the demons and devils she summoned), while Huntress was a bit of a party girl (whoo, I'm drunk, watch me shoot the hat off that orc, hey let's get naked!) who also just happened to happily take bounty hunter jobs from beings of the lower planes, to the obvious consternation (and damnation) of her targets. Both evil, but neither "cackle while the world burns" evil... just NE because of her total amorality when it came to her job, even while being sociable and outgoing. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Miraie | Sep 10 2015, 04:55 AM Post #70 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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A stray thought here, but.. would a paladin be doing an evil deed if they killed an evil person? Immediate gain: the evil person is gone and there are less evil people around. Metaphysical loss: the forces of evil grow stronger (as their petitioner soul goes where it should). (The implication being that if you were able to redeem the evil person instead, you'd make your immediate surroundings safer while also making the forces of good, or at least not-evil, stronger.) I also have a massive problem with paladins killing people simply because they are evil, but that is a flaw within the system more than anything else. If it pings, I smites. Evil-dar ho! |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| Ariella | Sep 10 2015, 05:17 AM Post #71 |
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Player-Side Admin
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No not really, remember the ability to smite comes from your god as does your ability to detect evil, the mind set is my deity has decided you are evil and given me the power to smite you down. A true paladin does not really have free will they are bound by the code of their faith first and their personal code second. |
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| cryptc | Sep 10 2015, 06:36 AM Post #72 |
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Advisor
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When the exception becomes the norm, making a very focused and lore friendly character becomes special. Use the opportunity to find interesting non-exceptions and create deep fulfilling rp that way. And just assume for each special character you see there's 100 000 others that are more closer to the norm. |
| "One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook | |
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| FiveWhats | Sep 10 2015, 02:21 PM Post #73 |
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I came here to splash at you.
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I don't think I've ever had a DM make it that black and white. I mean, yes, good and evil are pretty clearly defined in D&D but there's usually at least a little more nuance to it than that. Part of the fun of playing a paladin is staying true to their/their deity's code while doing good in a way you as a player character see fit. If you reduce the class to nothing more than a smitebot with no free will it becomes a thoroughly uninteresting character to play as a player. If you're going purely by the book, it works pretty well for something like a dungeon crawl (Detect Evil. Cleave and Smite). Otherwise it's so limiting from a roleplaying perspective I'm not sure why someone would even bother aside from class mechanics. |
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| Sinlinara | Sep 10 2015, 03:23 PM Post #74 |
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Player-Support DM
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It's something of a lengthy read but I believe this is relevant and I highly recommend it, even if it does look at things from an Eberron perspective. |
| A helpful support-shape person. Please feel free to poke me at any time if you need assistance and/or want pictures of cute puppies. | |
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| MimiFearthegn | Sep 10 2015, 03:57 PM Post #75 |
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Mistress of the Toolset / Player-Side Admin
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. . . not really. Paladins get gifts to fight evil, and are supposed to use them wisely. There's no god of "you must kill everything that glows evil." Depending on your setting and how the game is being run, you couldn't function like that. As the link Sinlinara posted points out, there's every reason to believe there's evil people out there who you really have no good excuse to smite - in that case, smiting would be taking an innocent life. The paladin would be condemned for it. Paladins aren't stupid or lacking free will. They just have principles. |
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