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Are Player Characters Exceptional?
Topic Started: Sep 9 2015, 06:22 AM (1,406 Views)
Miraie
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Dungeon Master (Emeritus)
It was an interesting read. Thank you. I've listed some good bits and observations below:

Quote:
 
However, in my home games I’ve always preferred to challenge the players to think about their actions – to have things be less clear-cut than “We’re good, they’re evil, beating them up is the right thing to do.” From the start, film noir was called out as a major influence of Eberron, and a noir story relies on a certain level of moral ambiguity and shades of gray. It shouldn’t always be easy to decide who the villain is in a scenario… or if killing the villain will solve a problem.

This is also something I would like to promote. I like scenarios where both (or more) parties are in the wrong. Whom will you support? Which bad choice will you make?

Quote:
 
Alignment is a spectrum. Round up ten “evil” people and you’ll find that their behavior and histories are radically different.

The alignment notions seem sensible here. It's a reason enough to read the article if you're interested in discussing how alignments could work. One might even find some character ideas here. Even if a paladin detects that someone is evil, they might actually do more harm than good by killing that person. I am all for that kind of complexity. Paladins who rely on their evildar are thus, in my opinion, committed to a fatal flaw that might become their undoing.

Quote:
 
Expanding on this: one of the rulers of the Five Nations is a good-aligned monarch who seeks to restart the Last War. Another is an evil leader who seeks peace. Restarting the war will result in the deaths of tens of thousands of people – how can a “good” monarch support that? Again, in Eberron alignment doesn’t represent someone’s actions on a global scale: it reflects the manner in which they pursue those goals. The good ruler believes that a just war is possible and that a united Khorvaire will prosper under her rule. She won’t condone torture, the mistreatment of civilians, and so on. She will treat her prisoners and emissaries fairly. Of course, her ministers and generals may engage in evil behavior in the name of the war; she will be horrified when she hears of it. Meanwhile, the evil king pursuing peace has a noble goal, but will do absolutely anything to achieve it. Torture? Oppressive martial law? Assassination? Anything. He’d kill members of his own family if he had to. So in both cases, the personal alignment tells you how they conduct their personal affairs, but nothing about the big picture.

Another good bit.

Quote:
 
This is a key point with the Church of the Silver Flame. They are devoted to fighting supernatural evil: demons, undead, lycanthropy, etc. These are the things to fight with sword and spell. HUMAN evil is something that should be fought with compassion, charity, and guidance. Per Flame creed, you defeat mortal evil by guiding people to the light, not by killing them.

This part might explain how Ms. Trissa acts, perhaps. I really like the unerring devotion thing she's got going on. All the same, I find smite-happy paladins very distasteful (in general). My problem with the alignment system is that there are 'acceptable targets' such as goblins who are totally okay to kill. D&D basically says there are races who are automatically evil and who should be put to the sword because they are a nuisance. That is the kind of thing I do not enjoy at all. If fiends can change, why not the level 1 goblins near your starting village? They might have already done a lot of evil and they might be willing to do a lot more before they're done, but if you're in a position where you can slay them all, are you not also in a position where you can negotiate with them? It's a matter of taste, of course. I am alright with people playing trigger happy characters in general, but I treat it as a character flaw in the campaigns I run - something I also want my players to know.

Going further, what we define as 'good' and 'evil' actually says a lot about the values we hold as players. More often than not, these values are negotiated from a position of power: they favor the straight white man more likely than they favor anyone else. It is probably not too hard to find examples of 'good' or 'evil' that is not quite agreeable if you belong to a minority (the wholesale slaughter of goblins being an example I used here).

Quote:
 
It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure it’s lawful evil, because that’s what it means to BE a devil.

This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).
Feel free to prod me with questions and other things!
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Sinlinara
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Miraie,Sep 10 2015
12:02 PM
Quote:
 
It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure it’s lawful evil, because that’s what it means to BE a devil.

This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).

You're very welcome for the link! Although that part specifically is something that I think is relevant specifically to Eberron and may or may not be relevant here as well (unless the staff agrees that it is relevant, in which case... \ o /). Syrania at least is an Eberron-only plane.
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MimiFearthegn
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Sinlinara,Sep 10 2015
04:21 PM
Miraie,Sep 10 2015
12:02 PM
Quote:
 
It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure it’s lawful evil, because that’s what it means to BE a devil.

This kind of lore can actually be a pretty smooth solution to outsiders having free will and being able to change alignments. You could, for instance, start as a succubus and then work your way 'up' towards becoming a slaad. I imagine this would not be a very popular solution for playable characters, however (if you picked a succubus, you probably also want to keep playing a succubus - otherwise you'd gone for the slaad right away).

You're very welcome for the link! Although that part specifically is something that I think is relevant specifically to Eberron and may or may not be relevant here as well (unless the staff agrees that it is relevant, in which case... \ o /). Syrania at least is an Eberron-only plane.

A. Thereal, I think, pointed out something similar the last time we had a discussion about outsider alignment, and I think its generally relevant to every setting. While certain books tried really hard to talk about outsider races, outsiders were obviously originally meant to be creatures of their planes and alignments. . . meaning that if they ceased to be creatures of those planes and those alignments, they'd be something else.

The balance between every interpretation then ends up being letting characters move one step away from their alignment before remaking. You get the odd Sigil exception, or the rising/falling outsider who hasn't morphed appearance yet (and the leeway to refluff a little), while preserving what the race is meant to be. . . which is exactly where we are. Yay!
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Mick64
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Death Slaadi kind of make that theory not work though, since they're Chaotic Evil but they remain slaadi and don't gain the [evil] subtype. They're still made of pure chaos, but that doesn't stop them from being evil.
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Ariella
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The thing is with a paladin its all based on that faith, Look at sune paladins for a good example!. I picked the flame cause i like the crazy devoted RP! smite all supernatural evils! and preach to everyone else.
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Verdana
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I don't think it says anywhere that when an outsider changes alignments they change in appearance.

Fall-From-Grace for example is a Lawful Neutral Succubus, not a would-be Modron.

Buuuut, there is evidence that the plane you reside in, changes you over time.
One example is the Shade race that were humans (or humanoids) that have merged with the Plane of Shadow.

Also, Mephistopheles and Asmodeus (among other Archdevils) that were Angels, as it says in Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, that throughout the centuries or millennia of constant fighting with demons, they started to become fiendish themselves.
Fighting demons in the Abyss.

Erinyes is another example of angels that fell, becoming Lawful Evil, and since they followed the Archdevils, they slowly turned into devils as well, since they resided in Baator.

Malkizid is another example of a Solar that fell, turned Lawful Evil, and became an Archdevil in Baator, taking fiendish traits but keeping his general angelic form.

Then we have Graz'zt that has been described as an Archdevil that was also changed a bit as he moved to the Abyss.
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MimiFearthegn
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Not so much in appearance, since it notes that Erinyes still have their more humanoid appearance from being angels (same with others), but stats do change. So its not fair to classify an outsider of drastically different alignment as the same race anymore. Otherwise, Erinyes would all look exactly like shiny angels.
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Ceremorph
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Lore nerd alert: Graz'zt was never an archdevil. He's (according to "ancient texts") the son of Pale Night, so at least half obyrith.
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We ran to the sounds of the thunder.
We danced among the lightning bolts,
and tore the world asunder.
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Brindas
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Ceremorph,Sep 11 2015
01:07 AM
Lore nerd alert: Graz'zt was never an archdevil. He's (according to "ancient texts") the son of Pale Night, so at least half obyrith.

Yeah, that was 4e lore where he was an archdevil who went into the Abyss and got corrupted.
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cryptc
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Another example of appearance not changing depending on alignment is the very fun picture of a risen Babau in an upper plane together with two celestials, looked pretty out of place there ;) (from the Planescape Fiends book I believe)
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