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| The Viability Of Crafting; Does it keep up with endgame loot? | |
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| Topic Started: Nov 16 2015, 04:35 AM (679 Views) | |
| Miraie | Nov 16 2015, 07:44 AM Post #16 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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I think we're definitely going OOC first here. IC can be spun whichever way we want to spin it to support the path we're taking. Maybe there are super epic crafting feats but because we do not want/can't implement them, they are not available to your character and the IC prerequisite would be meeting a Secret Master - and she doesn't ever set foot on Sigil because she's just that good. And so forth. If you want a crafter that can solo, say, Gatecrasher Abyss for income, I recommend checking Moras' thread on builds! Maybe he'll have time for some pointers. Or you could start a new general build. I think wizards can do pretty well in the Abyss with summons, henchmen (potentially - see: Golem Master, Demonologist) and the absurdity that is Dismissal (it kills Outsiders and the DC just keeps getting better as you level - and it doesn't have a HD cap like Banishment). The thread I was referring to - seems like Mr. Moras has built up a queue! I can also help you with a build if you would like to discuss something conventionally effective posthaste. PMs welcome, or an open thread in the build section. |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| R0ninknight | Nov 16 2015, 07:52 AM Post #17 |
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Good idea! I appreciate the advice. This is the...... 5th?, yeah 5th.... time I've restarted my main char from level 1 though so I'm not going for a round 6. Honestly.... my main's build generally fits me like a glove as a player but on this PW I've encountered the most challenge and setbacks of any medium. Fortunately, I also encountered the best RP! ![]() At this point I'm going to just seek advice IC and OOC both while hoping for more blueprint releases in the future. I'm also never going to make another crafter character (lol). I'm relieved that my item troubles seem limited to just me so far and that they seem temporary by the read of this thread. I was not going to post this originally and just stew but now I'm glad I did.
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| Miraie | Nov 16 2015, 08:05 AM Post #18 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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Yis. That is good to hear. The thing about good builds is that if you really want to optimize, you'll need to make them with the desired content in mind. A build for soloing Gatecrasher Carceri is very different from a build supporting a party of mixed ability characters doing Carceri (who can be a crafter) or a crafter focused around grinding stuff in the Abyss with the help of a henchman or okay AC/AB/Damage. |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| Ceremorph | Nov 16 2015, 08:10 AM Post #19 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Some of it may have to with the peculiarities of our server and setting. A great for-example is summons: most servers use the base OC settings, and most of the summons you get are going to suck, especially at lower levels, while here, a L3 or 5 character is really going to get a lot out of the long-lasting summon II or III. Also, even if you're not taking a class that grants henchmen, they're available to "hire" in several variations (although most people just love the thugs from the Night Market in the Hive). |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Mick64 | Nov 16 2015, 12:07 PM Post #20 |
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Well, it's normal that a character who wants to be able to craft every recepy in the game should be weaker then characters who don't. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as they say. I think the problem (Mechanically) with your character is that you want him to be too many things at once, so he ends up lacking in some of them. You want him to be a top-tier crafter. You want him to make the best golems. You want him to be able to cast all the big spells. You want him to be able to melee. It's good that you like RPing him though, that's the most important part. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| LiquidDreamer | Nov 16 2015, 04:10 PM Post #21 |
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Now there was an idea given way back when. The idea was rare item crafting recipes. Rare recipes that drop from monsters that allow some enchantments that cannot be crafted any other way. And once the recipe is done, it item is used up rendering it useless. Like I said, it was from awhile ago. |
Factions: Don't be afraid to shoot me a PM. Fraternity of Order Society Of Sensation Xaositects | |
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| R0ninknight | Nov 16 2015, 09:57 PM Post #22 |
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1-shot blueprints.... I can get behind that. Epic feats would be awesome, too (I suggested one but I'm not sure the engine can do it). I heard epic crafters can add a fourth property? Is that true? Do the abilities of a material take up a property slot? I surely hope not. Crafting will be great when I can afford to build bombs or other non-renewable resources. Right now its not that great. It would also be a balancing factor that allows more things if it was possible to make things that only the crafter can use- I can see the hesitation due to the fact that right now crafters toss items out to -everyone- when a combat feat usually only helps that specific character. Once that balance issue is addressed I think a lot more can be done. So to combine the ideas.... a 1-shot blueprint of awesomeness that creates an item that, for whatever IC reason, is only fitted or usable by the crafter. If you craft, you now have a bit more balance on the powerbuilders; if you are not sell it to someone that is. In reality there is something to be said for making your own things to use yourself. In DnD though making items and using them are on the same, mutually exclusive, spectrum. You are good at one or the other depending on which pole of the spectrum you're closer to. This has always felt very, very unrealistic to me because in RL I just plain know better. I've seen too many people build a weapon from scratch and then kick ass with it because that sort of item is what they focus on whether at the crafting table or at the tournament. Perhaps some of these themes/uses can be attached to the Skill Focus feats? Right now requiring them is a ripoff. It just takes 2 more feats to do what everyone else in every other setting can do without the need for 2 more feats and while the materials are really, really cool they are not 'burn two precious feat slots' cool. The really high skill requirements make sense to me and I"m not sure why they are not considered 'enough'. Again- really cool effects that are too expensive on the crafter right now unless the system expands a lot or some sort of relief is given to offset the feat cost. |
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| Mick64 | Nov 16 2015, 11:54 PM Post #23 |
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It makes a lot of sense, actually. If you split your time between learning to make a thing an learning to use it, you'll be less good at using it then someone who spends 100% of their time on learning how to use it. To draw from real life examples.... most soldiers have never worked on a firearm assembly line. I'd bet most Formula 1 drivers might not even know how to change their oil. I've met a computer hardware engineer who still typed with only two fingers. On a balance standpoint, being able to craft has to come at a sacrifice of your combat prowess, or else everyone would be a crafter which kind of ruins the whole point of it, since everyone would be making their own stuff. This is the problem with crafter-only items : If they give more benefits over normal items then what could normally be gained by one epic feat, then suddenly being a crafter also means you're better at fighting then the non-crafter.... and then the next day everyone's a crafter. So either the feat cost has to be extraordinarily high, or the personal item has to be barely stronger then comparable non-personal items. I don't think either possibility is very satisfactory. Also remember that you don't -have- to pick every single crafting feat. The really special materials that require skill focus are supposed to be for people who go the extra step. You can still craft most things without them. If you want to be able to craft -everything- though, it should come at a significant cost. And finally, yes properties granted by special materials do count against the enchantment limit. Their advantage is that they most often give stronger stats then what you can get with regular enchantments. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| Ceremorph | Nov 17 2015, 01:21 AM Post #24 |
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No, there will not be a "fourth property" option. On a server where it's as easy to get to epic levels as ours, that just means every item will now have a fourth property, and more power creep. The skill focus feats: I don't see how this compares to other servers, because all of the "standard" recipes don't require them, only the high-end custom ones unique to SCoD. If all you want to craft is cold iron and alchemical silver, you don't need these feats. But metals like aurorum or morguth-iron are rare, and hardly something that the average smith is even going to encounter in their lives, not to mention actually learn the secrets of crafting. The one-shot blueprints, if we were to go in this direction (and I'd not mind it), would probably be for specialized powers not available in normal crafting, rather than just improving what's already there. And the better ones for weapons and armor would likely be tied to the skill focus feats, yes, making them more attractive. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| R0ninknight | Nov 17 2015, 04:30 AM Post #25 |
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I'm going to drop this cause it hits kinda close to home. I'm just as good at creating a rifle as I am at shooting it and I suck at neither. Am I the best at each? Nope. Am I confident that if I found myself alone with things trying to kill me that I"m adaptable enough to survive- even thrive? Hell yes- and my ability to be just as good at using a sharpened stick as a spear as I am at sharpening the right stick matters a lot there. I've seen it plenty out of others too. Its one thing that DnD messed up because it makes sense on paper but not in practice. Of course, this is a DnD game so I don't expect miracles. Ultimately every modern RL human being is a multiclass character if one was to try to put us in such simple frameworks. Anyway, that is where the 'I just plain know better' comes from- I honestly do just plain know better from life experience. Thank you for humoring me. I hope some good, constructive ideas have come from this. I enjoy what you have made so far. |
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| cryptc | Nov 17 2015, 06:26 AM Post #26 |
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Trying to bring logic into D&D always brings problem. It comes down to if someone could do one thing at 100% or everything at 90%, everyone would play characters that did everything. So to prevent everyone playing the identical build, specialized builds need to be significantly better at their thing. |
| "One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook | |
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| Iggwilv | Nov 17 2015, 06:50 AM Post #27 |
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I think smithing needs a boost. I mean I could spend a feat skill points and a lot of time hunting down the materials for a solrain truesteel weapon that will have piercing the DR of most fiends I meet as one of its properties. Or I could spend a feat no skill points less gold and much less time on making a wand of bless weapon or holy sword (and all of its bugged up goodness) so I can add that same property to some already property laden purple or enchanted item I have. |
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| cryptc | Nov 17 2015, 07:24 AM Post #28 |
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Not everything needs to be equal in power, instead giving people options if they don't have UMD |
| "One of the most curious statements I've seen on this list is that PlaneScape is a logical world. I must have erred. I was trying to create a world that defied logic." - David 'Zeb' Cook | |
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| Miraie | Nov 17 2015, 07:28 AM Post #29 |
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A Helpful Support Person
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I think that is the only real reason to use it. A wand of Holy Sword is a better option otherwise. Unless you are a Paladin, in which case Holy Sword won't actually bug for you. And you need to kill your fellow Paladins to obtain a weapon material that will do the Holy Swording for you. Eheh. |
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Feel free to prod me with questions and other things! Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir. | |
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| Ceremorph | Nov 17 2015, 07:49 AM Post #30 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Actually I believe Ariella's update to the loot tables should have truesteel dropping somewhere besides Mercuria... |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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