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Psionics
Topic Started: Jun 10 2016, 06:27 AM (1,135 Views)
Pellease
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Greybeard
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So I am thinking of rolling up a character again. Been gone for a while and curious about the new psionics system.

Do psion powers count as spells or feats? For instance, can you manifest psionic abilities as a mage slayer?

Can psionic powers be used while shapeshifted, or polymorphed?

Is there a form of "spell resistance" against psionic powers?

Is there a way to get spell resistance as a psion?

Does Cerebremancer work like the Mystic Theurge in the fact that you can mix psion with any casting class? Can I have a Psion/Cleric the same way you were able to make a Wizard/Sorc, a Druid/Cleric or a Wizard/Warlock?
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Miraie
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A Helpful Support Person
Dungeon Master (Emeritus)
Quote:
 
Do psion powers count as spells or feats? For instance, can you manifest psionic abilities as a mage slayer?

Spells, most likely. They're subject to Arcane Spell Failure from shields and Medium/Heavy armor. You can wear light armor easily, though. If you can manifest as a Mage Slayer, it may be something we should fix. I doubt you can, however!

Quote:
 
Can psionic powers be used while shapeshifted, or polymorphed?

I don't think so. You cannot click most abilities while shapeshifted.

Quote:
 
Is there a form of "spell resistance" against psionic powers?

Normal Spell Resistance. Psions use the normal rules for penetrating SR too.

Quote:
 
Is there a way to get spell resistance as a psion?

Psions get a power that allows them to apply Spell Resistance, which works against spells and psionic abilities.

Quote:
 
Does Cerebremancer work like the Mystic Theurge in the fact that you can mix psion with any casting class? Can I have a Psion/Cleric the same way you were able to make a Wizard/Sorc, a Druid/Cleric or a Wizard/Warlock?

Has to be a Wizard. Not sure why you'd combine it with anything but Wizard, though, since you would get a very powerful Ability Score synergy (high INT).

Details for the PRC
Feel free to prod me with questions and other things!
Yes, hello. I also play Abigail Weir.
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PenguinNinja
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Stormfire
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I've found Psions are sort of like an even tankier version of Wizards, with slightly different spells, a lot of insta kill spells, but they also have some spells that wizards don't such as spell resistance, FoM, and some others. The majority of your spells are self buffs only, the decent offensive spells are gained in later levels, the ones early on are very lackluster, some are terrible while others are incredibly useful. They get Banish, and Impale (Reflex vs Death) and... one that I can't remember off the top of my head which is will vs death.

They get to cast more singular spells than a wizard, but their spell amount is roughly the same. So if you're focused in a single spell or two you can shoot off a lot more than a wizard does. I think your PP can cap at a little under 600, and the higher end abilities can cost about 13-20 PP, depending on what metapsionics you have up.

They also make really good gishes! My first Psion was a githyanki (20 psion 8 Ftr) and it kicked ass, I could solo the Abyssal abomination and all the Abyss bosses at 27. Personally I feel it's even better than Soulknife but that's just me.

They also get Iron body, which gives a ton of immunities and DR, concealments, a damage shield, ect ect.

Long story short, there are plenty of possibilities out there with a psion, and it's probably one of the more versatile classes.

Downside, you still run out of spells. (Warlocks ftw.) But! You have the psionic lash which while not all that powerful is at least something.
|Alan Erian|
|Klatharaxl'tun the Devourer|
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Whitefly
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The primary differences between psions and wizards are:

Psions don't get cool summons. They get one cool summon and it's not as cool as wizard summons, and they only get that if they go for the shaper discipline.

Psions get a lot of insta-death spells and they get them early. Your first one is crisis of breath, which I believe you can pick up at level 5. Unlike a wizard, you have insta-death powers that roll against reflex and will as well as fortitude.

Psions get lower DCs owing mainly to the lack of DC-based level 9 spells, the lack of a practiced spellcaster (psion) feat and the lack of a red wizard equivalent.
Wizzies can hit:
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 14 intelligence + 1 enhanced specialisation + 6 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 9 spell level = 44 DC
Psions can hit:
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 15 intelligence + 3 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 8 spell level = 40 DC

Psions have access to some unique defensive powers that provide crit immunity, some very good physical and elemental DR, blind immunity (seer only), healing and an equivalent of the spirit shaman ability favoured of the spirits. They can also buff with a larger shield bonus than arcane magic can provide and they can cast it on allies... plus they get that power at level 2. They can also res if they take the psychobotanicalist discipline (or whatever it's called).

Psions gain no darksight / see invisible equivalent unless they take the seer discipline.

Psions have a far, far better choice of skills than wizards.

Psions have much greater flexibility over what they can cast per day, so if they want to spend all their points on insta-death powers, they can do that, where a wizard might get 20 reliable insta-death spells at most.

Psions are significantly more feat-starved than wizards, due to them not getting their PnP bonus feats at 5, 10 and so on.


So a while ago I was working on a giant pile of opinions and folderol regarding psionics, but I got bored after writing the first bit so I just sort of stopped. Anyway, here's the bit about disciplines and their powers - it might help you decide on which discipline you want to snap up:

Quote:
 
Psionic Disciplines
Clairsentence (Seer)
So we start with the strongest discipline first. Why's it the strongest? Because Psions can't see invisibility or grant themselves immunity to blindness without it, it gets a cool roleplay utility thingy and a +4 buff to a useful skill, which is more meaningful at level 30 than 1d4+1 damage to a single target.

☻☻☻☻☻ Enhanced Senses: Provides See Invisibility (as the spell), immunity to blindness, immunity to deafness and a +4 bonus to spot, listen and search. It's only for a 1 round/level duration, but it costs 1 power point, so that's up to 3 minutes of really useful buffs that you can cast hundreds of times between resting. Suffice to say, this one is really, really good. It's why you become a Seer.
My Suggestion: Remove the See Invisibility aspect of this. Your Piercing Sight already provides it and Enhanced Senses does enough on its own.

☻☻☻☻☻ Remote Viewing: A little bit fiddly and weird, Remote Viewing gives you a stealth drone thingy that you can use to spy on people. It does its job well, though it's obviously useless in combat. Note: Apparently you need to set its AI to dummy mode to prevent it from unstealthing if you click off of it.

☻☻☻☺☺ Piercing Sight: Like Enhanced Senses, but with less buffs and a longer duration. I don't really know what's so good about True Seeing as opposed to See Invisibility in game terms, but it may be useful for roleplay. Gets a 3 because Enhanced Senses is usually a better, cheaper version, particularly at higher levels where the duration isn't as big of an issue.


Metacreativity (Shaper)
The second most powerful discipline, this one summons a big friendly guy who hits things for you, plus you can heal both him and allied constructs for a pretty decent amount with the scalable Repair Construct power. Nice!

☻☻☻☻☻ Astral Construct / Improved Astral Construct: It's not the best summon ever, but it's the only one you've got, you can resummon it multiple times per day, it apparently now uses its psionic abilities rather than solely hitting things and it does a fair old amount of damage. Little bit fragile, needs some buffs to help it survive, but this is a solid summon and a great choice for first time Psions. Note that I'm including the improved version in this section, since it replaces the basic version when taken. And yes it's worth improving it.

☻☻☻☻☺ Repair Construct: 1d8 + level healing isn't huge, but you can twin it (don't augment it, the augmented version is only +4.5 average healing) and heal up to an average 68.5 points or just keep spamming it if you're not in combat for cheap heals. Initially worthless because it's cheaper to resummon your construct, this one gets steadily better and better as you level.



Psychometabolism (Egoist)
The third most powerful discipline! This one has a cute heal over time Vigor substitute, which is cheap enough to see frequent use, a Rage type power which I'm fairly sure doesn't stack with strength / constitution buffs (therefore is worthless) and the main reason you want to be an Egoist: you can rez people!

☻☻☻☻☺ Cellular Adjustment: Basically, it's Lesser Vigor (as the spell), which can be augmented into a shorter duration Vigor (as the spell), which is good, because you'd happily take those spells if you were a Spirit Shaman and having 2 regen is consistently useful throughout.

☻☺☺☺☺ Adrenaline: This one's a real stinker, unless I'm wrong and the abilities do stack with existing strength / constitution buffs. Its only saving grace is the +50% movement speed buff, but then there's the 'move at half speed when it wears off' issue. It's worthless early on because of its duration, it's worth very little later on due to existing buffs on items. You can use it to run from a to b quickly, presuming you'll have time to rest at b. Well done movement speed, you saved Adrenaline from being the first 0 smiley power listed.
My suggestion: Make it buff +3 and +5 when augmented. If you can maintain the power, you get more flexibility with your equipment / tattoo, at the cost of running the risk of weakness and slowdown should you fail to upkeep the effect.

☻☻☻☻☻ Psionic Revivify: Raise Dead with benefits, need I say more? It's cheap, it's super useful, it's much better than having to lug around a Raise Dead spell as a cleric or take up one of your level 5 spell choices for a Flavoured Soul. A great utility.


Telepathy (Telepath)
Telepathy's power of choice is Psionic Dominate Person, which is great for roleplay and great during combat. Psionic Charm Person is great for roleplay, Telepathic Assault isn't great. By the way, you need this if you want to go around acting like some kind of a total Mentalist, like mindflayers do (racial prestige class pre-req!).

☻☻☻☺☺ Psionic Charm Person: Much charm, very psionic. Charm is most useful for roleplay; if you're an illithid and you really need someone to moisturise you with their tongue, Psionic Charm Person is your power. In combat, it can keep enemies off you by charming them into not attacking you, but it gets out-done by higher level powers and its DC lags behind to the point where even its cheaper power point cost won't make it see much use. Says it has duration 'instant', but I'm pretty sure it's 1 round/level.

☺☺☺☺☺ Telepathic Assault: If you fail your will save, you get reduced will saves. I don't get it. If your level 1 power can beat their will save, why do you need to reduce their will save? Seems like a good way to waste a round of combat achieving very little. I was going to give it one smiley, but even then the fact that a successful save still inflicts -2 will isn't enough to save this one. It's just a waste of time. I don't even see that much roleplay potential for it.
My suggestion: Remove the will save.

☻☻☻☻☺ Psionic Dominate Person: I'm fairly sure you can augment this one to turn it into Dominate Monster (as the spell) at level 9. Think of the possibilities! The only downside to dominating creatures is that if they get killed by the enemy, you don't get the experience and you can't target them for other things like drinking their blood or snogging their soul out or sucking out their brains with your wiggly tentacles. Kinda' makes sense, since a dominated creature can't be commanded to sit by and let itself get killed, but you can't undominate it until the duration runs out either. So there's annoyances with this one, but all in all it's solid and it makes Telepathy worth taking.


Psychokinesis (Kineticist)
Control Object is a really cool power for roleplay and Kinetic Storm is a pretty handy persistent paralysing AoE, but Psychokinetic Blades is pathetic. It's not powerful enough to avoid being out-ranked by higher level powers, nor is it unique enough in what it does to stand up against the other disciplines. It's arguable that this is better than Psychoportation, but either way it's a fight to stay out of the 'worst discipline' in the game spot.

☺☺☺☺☺ Psychokinetic Blades: Deal 1d4 damage per two caster levels up to 5 (7 if augmented), and half of that damage may be gobbled up by damage reduction. It's basically a bad version of Magic Missile. By the time you're level 13 and you have it maxed while augmented, you're dealing an average 17.5 damage per casting, which is the same as Magic Missile at level 9, except it can get resisted by damage reduction. On the other hand, it maximises slightly better than Magic Missile. Note that Psionic Lash at level 13 deals an average 12.5 damage for no power point cost and inflicts confusion... and it scales up higher than this junk power. Its only upside over Lash at higher levels is that you can use it against stuff that isn't mind spell immune, but you'll have so many better powers by that point that this thing is never going to see play. Also there aren't many enemies at low levels that are mind spell immune. You don't need to level up in Mechanus.
My Suggestion: ??? I have no idea.

☻☻☻☺☺ Control Object: I could be completely wrong about this one and it actually scales up as you level, but I've tried it at level 1 and it was Shelgarn's Persistent Blade (as the spell), which is a bad spell and I think it just stays bad regardless of your level, like a joke version of Metacreativity's Astral Construct. If it does scale and get better, then I take it back completely, but that's not why I'm giving it three smiley faces. I'm giving it three smiley faces because it's really good for roleplay. You can control objects with your brain, how fun is that?

☻☻☻☻☺ Kinetic Storm: It's like that one spell Druids and Spirit Shamans have, only not as good, but granted that is a level 9 spell and this is one you get a level 9, not 17, so it's pretty good. You don't actually have that many ways of stunning multiple enemies, let alone dunking an AoE down for multiple rounds, so this stormy thingy is pretty handy. You can augment it for 2 extra DC, which, given the nature of this power, you probably always want to do, because once the enemy is out of the area you probably don't want to be running back through it to lure them in. Note that half the damage is magical, but since it's only 3.5, you can still Energy Absorbtion + Mind Blank, Psionic and sit inside it while fighting.


Psychoportation (Nomad)
Where the Telepath has not-very-good powers, one being almost completely useless and the other being 'eh s'okay early on', Psychoportation's early powers are more along the lines of, 'why would I ever use this?' and 'completely outclassed by the time I hit level 5'. Its saving grace is the ability to create cool wormholes. Basically it's trash + really fun utility.

☺☺☺☺☺ Blink: With a really short 2 round duration and some trashy concealment that gets outdone by Concealing Amorpha, Greater at level 5, and out-duration'd by Concealing Amorpha at level 3, this one is a complete stinker, which you will never use. It makes Telepathic Assault look really good. I'm still not raising Telepathic Assault to one smiley though. But yea, this one is pure, utter, unmitigated trash.
My suggestion: Make it 2 rounds of invisibility, quickened, so it's a cheap, effective escape tool that finds its own niche while fitting the Nomad theme.

☺☺☺☺☺ Dissipating Ray: Remember at the very start of this I mentioned a power that did 1d4 + 1 damage at level 30? This is it. This is possibly the stinkiest stinker that ever did stank. It's so unbelievably bad that I would give it negative smileys if I could.
My Suggestion: Make it like Dismissal, Psionic, except that it can only dismiss summoned creatures, not xp-giving outsider / elemental enemies.

☻☻☻☻☻ Psionic Wormhole: I've never seen one, but it sounds awesome! If it's as awesome as it sounds, it deserves every one of these five smiley faces. I mean, seriously, it dunks down a wormhole and then anyone who wants to can just hop on in? That's so cool! Think of all the fun stuff you could do with this! Psychoportation might not be very good, but wormholes will always be fun and, given that disciplines aren't as character-defining as the class write up suggests, wouldn't you rather have cool wormholes?
Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling
Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort
Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress
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Strawberry Jam
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Cerebremancer only works with wizard I think. If you take practiced spell casting you can play a wizard with technically 29 caster levels and 15 psion manifester levels.

Some powers are custom and have better effects, some are straight copies from pnp and seems like they would be never quite be effective. Microcosm a level 9 power that requires creatures have less than 30 hp doesn't seem to get used for example. The damage shields are quite good to ensure survival.

Most of the ac powers use dodge so don't rely just on that.

Power resistance grants spell resistance, likewise dispell variants work vice versa.

If you want damage powers you need to get the metapsionics to make them effective, but that requires having a higher level to use them and it eats more power.

Currently no psionic items, so only thing that really helps is a headband of intellect +5, the power pool feats seem good however for 10% increase each. You know about as many powers as a sorcerer knows spells, and have roughly the same points as generalist wizard has spells. But you choose how to allocate those points instead of having them tied to a specific level.

Manifesting all your protective powers might end up taking around 150-200 points, so the pool enhancements are ideal, unless you rather just use a few protections and melee it out as wiz/cerebremancer/psion/eldritch knight.

I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds

Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic
Spirit Shaman: Mushishi
Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist
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Xndar
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The Mechanus Cannon
Builders/scripters
Most of the questions have already been answered, but two things I'd put in:

Mage Slayer will not be able to use psionics, there is a specific code in the custom spellhook for psionics designed to prevent psionics from being used by MS. I'd assume its working properly as I've yet to see any reports to the contrary.

Cerebremancer is purely Wizard/Psion and no other combinations. There are mechanical, balance, and lore reasons for this, so it is not going to change.
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Lucadia
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Quote:
 
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 14 intelligence + 1 enhanced specialisation + 6 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 9 spell level = 44 DC
Psions can hit:
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 15 intelligence + 3 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 8 spell level = 40 DC


Wizard: We dont get +2 dc per focus. Its only +1.

psion: I dont see how your even getting +15 int mod as that require 40 int. Psion gets no bonus feats on any level . If theres supposed to be epic bonus dc, its not working at all either.
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Strawberry Jam
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Not sure about psions getting more death spells. I think impale is custom, which is why it's so different. But wizard also gets undeath to death, which is insta death against undead and don't think psion has similar.

Phantasmal killer
Cloud kill
Prismatic Spray
Circle of Death
Undeath to Death
Flesh to Stone
Banishment
Power Word Petrify
Power word Kill
Finger of Death
Wail of the Banshee
Weird

They're not ideal but they have comparable restrictions to most powers I think. Then again wizard gets avasculate, mordenkainens, and assay resistance. :tongue:

The Shaper is harder to do as pure Psion since we mostly can't share powers. Cerebremancer Shaper would be able to use Spider Skin, Force Screen (psion power), Improved Mage Armor, and Stoneskin, Haste, Energy Immunity, bull/cat/bear, true sight, displacement, rage, protection from spells, heroism, cairvoyance, circle vs alignment, shrink, enlarge to the construct, allies too. In table top you can summon your construct with say +8 or +12 deflection and resistances to an energy type. Taking it to plane of ice or fire is a bit of a ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh moment when you really wish you got those construct specific buffs.

Also remember no persistent power, nor defensive casting.

Psion is not useless but it's worth taking those things into consideration too before you jump to conclusions.
I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds

Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic
Spirit Shaman: Mushishi
Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist
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Aslya
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Blood
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Strawberry Jam,Jun 10 2016
03:17 PM
The Shaper is harder to do as pure Psion since we mostly can't share powers. Cerebremancer Shaper would be able to use Spider Skin, Force Screen (psion power), Improved Mage Armor, and Stoneskin, Haste, Energy Immunity, bull/cat/bear, true sight, displacement, rage, protection from spells, heroism, cairvoyance, circle vs alignment, shrink, enlarge to the construct, allies too. In table top you can summon your construct with say +8 or +12 deflection and resistances to an energy type. Taking it to plane of ice or fire is a bit of a ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh moment when you really wish you got those construct specific buffs.

Wait; the astral construct powers, aren't they based on class level (psion), and not caster level ?

Because in the first case (as the wiki state it is), a cerebremancer would have only a low lvl construct.

Do you know by experience if it's char lvl or caster lvl ? It changes everything, as if it's char lvl, a shaper cerebremancer is a very bad choice.
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rapsam2003
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Miraie,Jun 10 2016
07:00 AM
Quote:
 
Is there a way to get spell resistance as a psion?

Psions get a power that allows them to apply Spell Resistance, which works against spells and psionic abilities.

You can always pick a race with decent SR. I wouldn't pick one with a high ECL though.
The Cambion Morthos: Athar Warlock
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Strawberry Jam
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Aslya,Jun 10 2016
03:25 PM
Strawberry Jam,Jun 10 2016
03:17 PM
The Shaper is harder to do as pure Psion since we mostly can't share powers. Cerebremancer Shaper would be able to use Spider Skin, Force Screen (psion power), Improved Mage Armor, and Stoneskin, Haste, Energy Immunity, bull/cat/bear, true sight, displacement, rage, protection from spells, heroism, cairvoyance, circle vs alignment, shrink, enlarge to the construct, allies too. In table top you can summon your construct with say +8 or +12 deflection and resistances to an energy type. Taking it to plane of ice or fire is a bit of a ehhhhhhhhhhhhhh moment when you really wish you got those construct specific buffs.

Wait; the astral construct powers, aren't they based on class level (psion), and not caster level ?

Because in the first case (as the wiki state it is), a cerebremancer would have only a low lvl construct.

Do you know by experience if it's char lvl or caster lvl ? It changes everything, as if it's char lvl, a shaper cerebremancer is a very bad choice.

Sorry I couldn't tell you how it's implemented and haven't actually tested it. I do know that what it's based on is manifester level, essentially that should increase with cerebremancer. The only reason the construct scales is because it assumes that as soon as you can augment it you will augment it to the next level, the cost goes up accordingly.

That's how it works in table top so I assume it's the same, but I could be wrong!

If it for some reason requires specific class levels then you would need 17 psion, 5 wizard, 8 cerebremancer. Still enough to get most of the spells for it I think?
I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds

Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic
Spirit Shaman: Mushishi
Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist
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Aslya
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Quote:
 
varies depending on the class (Psion) level of the manifester. At levels 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17 the improved astral construct increases in its durability, psionic abilities, and competence in battle.


Which would be inconsistent with other disciplines, like telepathy, scaling with caster level.

Anyone know about how the construct really scale ? As per wiki, or is the wiki wrong ?
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Strawberry Jam
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Tester
It could just be the wording, I think it was written before cerebremancer.

The way it works in table top is there is no limit to the amount you can augment up to you manifester level. Obviously the way it's implemented here getting a level 2 construct would be pretty useless fast, so it scales.

(Not implemented but hypothetically) If another discipline spends a feat to take astral construct, it would use their manifester level. At least that's how it should work.
I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds

Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic
Spirit Shaman: Mushishi
Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist
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Aslya
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You never know, and it's not a trivial difference; if someone can look up the actual script, we'll know for good ! (and be able to rectify the wiki if need be)
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Whitefly
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;)
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Lucadia,Jun 10 2016
02:48 PM
Quote:
 
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 14 intelligence + 1 enhanced specialisation + 6 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 9 spell level = 44 DC
Psions can hit:
10 base + 1 spellcasting prodigy + 15 intelligence + 3 epic bonus DC + 3 epic focus + 8 spell level = 40 DC


Wizard: We dont get +2 dc per focus. Its only +1.

The +6 is from caster level 38, I've included the +3 from epic spell focus immediately after the epic bonus DC.

Quote:
 
psion: I dont see how your even getting +15 int mod as that require 40 int. Psion gets no bonus feats on any level . If theres supposed to be epic bonus dc, its not working at all either.

Psions don't get epic bonus feats at 23, 26 and 29?

Ahh, looking at the bfeat 2da file for psions, I think you might be right.

I guess they can only reach +13 intelligence bonus for 38 DC :/ That's like... really bad actually, roughly equal to warlock. I believe warlocks can hit 37 DC? And if you're right about the lack of epic bonus DCs, that's a maximum 35 DC for psion powers.
Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling
Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort
Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress
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