|
| ||||
Announcements
| Welcome to Sigil: City of Doors. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Dual Wielding | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Aug 20 2016, 03:44 AM (232 Views) | |
| WestonQ | Aug 20 2016, 03:44 AM Post #1 |
|
Blood
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Is it worth it without PTWF? |
![]() |
|
| Plaxy100 | Aug 20 2016, 05:04 AM Post #2 |
Does not infact have a Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
On a mathmatical point one should ask is Ptwf have value. You see normally your first 3 attacks are what usually hit. Those 3- 4 attacks afterward are basically 20 fishing. Now when you throw in haste or improved Flurry PTwf Gains tones of value cause now its actually getting extra Full BaB attacks |
|
GMT: -8. Player Tag: Plaxy100 Steamtag: Plaxy186 Characters: Merrium Pinklily (The Red Death Hin) Brandon Burnfire (Master Evoker) Zinex (half lune warlock) Sssylvgh (Yuan-ti Arcane trickster) Timothy Jack (Bard of the Fated) | |
![]() |
|
| Pellease | Aug 20 2016, 05:32 AM Post #3 |
Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
But if the first 2-3 attacks of the main hand often hit then wouldn't the next 2-3 of the off hand hit with PTWF? |
![]() |
|
| Plaxy100 | Aug 20 2016, 06:14 AM Post #4 |
Does not infact have a Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You get the first 2-3 attacks with Greater twf. P just gives yah the last 3-5. Its value is really only show if you have Extra Max Bab attacks if yah dont have them then Ptwf really aint doing much. |
|
GMT: -8. Player Tag: Plaxy100 Steamtag: Plaxy186 Characters: Merrium Pinklily (The Red Death Hin) Brandon Burnfire (Master Evoker) Zinex (half lune warlock) Sssylvgh (Yuan-ti Arcane trickster) Timothy Jack (Bard of the Fated) | |
![]() |
|
| Whitefly | Aug 20 2016, 10:05 AM Post #5 |
|
;)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Perfect two-weapon fighting allows you to get double the benefit from haste and it's very good with multiattack creature weapons because of their slower down scaling on later attacks. Let's say you have 50 ab, 26 bab, are hasted, dual-wielding with perfect two-weapon fighting. Your attacks will be: +48/+48/+43/+38/+33/+28/+23 +48/+48/+43/+38/+33/+28/+23 Without perfect two-weapon fighting: +48/+48/+43/+38/+33/+28/+23 +48/+43/+38 Now if your opponent had 58 AC, which is 10 higher than your ab, you would have to roll a 10 or above (55% chance to hit) with your first attacks, scaling down in blocks of 25% to a minimum 5%. This means most of your perfect two-weapon fighting attacks are going to have about a 5% chance to hit. Everything after the third attack in the above scenario has a 5% chance to hit. Perfect two weapon fighting basically adds a bunch of extra off-hand attacks after the third and a bonus attack for haste. So basically you're adding 75% of your per-hit damage again using perfect two-weapon fighting over greater two-weapon fighting. So is it significant? Yes, it's about 30% more damage per round in the above scenario, but it becomes even more significant when you're using creature weapons and multiattack, because your ab is only dropping by 2 per time (thus 10% loss rather than 25%) so later attacks in the round frequently retain a very good chance to hit. Consider also that most critters on this server have lower AC than that, it's only bosses and weird pit fiend / erinyes spawns with tower shields that have janky high AC. The fact of lower AC pushes perfect two-weapon fighting up quite a bit, because it's all about getting enough ab to make those later attacks in the round relevant. Thing is, if it's a choice between dual-wielding with greater two-weapon fighting or wielding a single hand, remember 3 extra attacks against a 10 higher AC target, even if their cumulative chance to hit is only 90%, is still adding +90% of your per-hit damage that you wouldn't see single handed. Single handed you'd see a combined 200% of your per hit damage in the above scenario, so 90% extra is a big deal. Though with all that said, a shield can provide +6 AC, which is -30% damage from each attack against an enemy which would otherwise bit hitting you greater than 5% and less than 95% of the time, and if it pushes your AC 21 above their ab, you also become effectively immune to critical hits, because they can never make their threat roll. In summary, it's better to have perfect two-weapon fighting, but if you're not using multiattack with creature weapons, not using haste and are fighting high AC enemies, the gap in effectiveness between greater and perfect two-weapon fighting becomes very small. I would say the usual case on this server is low AC enemies and abundant haste, which would suggest it's worth going an extra mile for perfect two-weapon fighting. |
|
Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress | |
![]() |
|
| Strawberry Jam | Aug 20 2016, 12:58 PM Post #6 |
![]() ![]()
|
Obsidian gave 2 additional attacks to bab for epic levels which they don't normally get. This actually gives a significant bonus all said and done. So PTWF will give more even if it only hits on a 20. Lets 50 damage per hit, you have 0 ab enemy has 20 ac. This is a worst case scenario but each extra attack will deal another 2.5 damage and multiply for critical hit if they're not immune. So roughly 8 (crit immune) or up to 30 (on x4) extra damage per round if you assume the extra 3 attacks will always be 20 or lower than the AC. There are also a few bugs I think with using dual wielding, haste, and flurry together, gives you an extra attack on full attack bonus. If you use sneak attacks then yes the more attacks in the first phase or whatever they call it means you maximize your sneak damage. So if you're a rogue you need to figure out if PTWF gives more sneaks or not, depending on your total attacks per round. |
|
I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic Spirit Shaman: Mushishi Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist | |
![]() |
|
| Gazoo | Aug 20 2016, 03:21 PM Post #7 |
Namer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Nwn2 Haste only ever adds one attack, afaik. It's not affected by PTWF (or twf). The +1 haste attack is usually added to the the last AB-flurry group and based on your main hand AB. (I think TWF may have the sequence: main hand/haste/offhand? So it's possible with PTWF that the haste attack may be seen in the middle, immediately after all the main hand attacks- if you look at the combat log.) |
![]() |
|
| WestonQ | Aug 20 2016, 05:03 PM Post #8 |
|
Blood
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I guess to clarify if I'll never be able to get the numbers for PTWF but will be able to get all the others is it worth it to even take that route? This comes with multiattack. Also does that multi work with regular weapons or no? |
![]() |
|
| Whitefly | Aug 20 2016, 06:03 PM Post #9 |
|
;)
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Multiattack works with unarmed and creature weapons only. If you're going for that, I strongly recommend trying to take perfect two-weapon fighting. It's a big deal. |
|
Moxie Anafara Angas, aka Ixsaea; delightful Xaositectiefling Kismet Saljahasa; "really friendly" air elemental sort Ravvi Beaconberry; adorable hin adventuress | |
![]() |
|
| Plaxy100 | Aug 21 2016, 05:06 AM Post #10 |
Does not infact have a Greybeard
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
if the enemy has 20 more AC than the bonus of those extra attacks then they will not crit. cause you can't confirm... well there is having power Crittical feat... although I don't think i've even seen a posted build with this feat it is really nich as the only time its even worth anythin is if the opponent has a high ac that requires 14 or more to hit but AC is less than 4 above 20. |
|
GMT: -8. Player Tag: Plaxy100 Steamtag: Plaxy186 Characters: Merrium Pinklily (The Red Death Hin) Brandon Burnfire (Master Evoker) Zinex (half lune warlock) Sssylvgh (Yuan-ti Arcane trickster) Timothy Jack (Bard of the Fated) | |
![]() |
|
| Ceremorph | Aug 21 2016, 05:45 AM Post #11 |
|
Dark Mistress of the Toolset
![]()
|
I've had power critical on builds with enough fighter levels to "waste" feats in the pre-epic levels. Of course, once in the epics you're better served spending spare feats on ability score bonuses and automatic things like prowess and armor skin. |
|
We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · Builds and Build Discussions · Next Topic » |





![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/10754/109/0/f7002139/pipend.png)






7:19 PM Jul 11