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| Summoner | |
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| Topic Started: Aug 25 2016, 02:05 AM (373 Views) | |
| Pellease | Aug 25 2016, 02:05 AM Post #1 |
Greybeard
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I know this comes up all the time and I've been reading through the old posts, but with all the updates I'm not sure how many of them apply. Essentially what I need to figure out is if hiding behind a summons in late game is viable and what spells are the best. I know the later summons are powerful, but they don't last long and I don't know how they do against enemies if they aren't buffed. Right now I am pretty much open to anything. PM, Dem, Dr. I'm also curious about the none casters. How are the blackguard's fiend and undead summons? Can they hold any weight in late game without being buffed? What about the shadow dancer's shadow? Does the warlock's walking dead scale? Or is the fiendish legacy feat for fiend summoning any good? I think it brings in a lvl 5 summoning? When do the summons start tipping from being a bluffable ally to single encounter hitters? |
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| Plaxy100 | Aug 25 2016, 03:32 AM Post #2 |
Does not infact have a Greybeard
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Top of the summoning pole are the Golem Master's though they lose a lot in casting levels and well Golems are Expensive to build even with 10 GM levels we are taking droppiing 10k + Rare Gems and or Materials. the top ones GMs can use and summon are level 27 or 28 when maxed and are Pretty much the term of near indestructable though ignore im too much and dont buff them in the higher areas can be worn down, Next on the list are Animal companions if you go full 30 levels in Druid or Cleric with animal domain + epic animal feat. Level 23 not as invulnerable as the Golems but are handy, my experiance is Dino is pretty usefull though new advanced ones are selectable now though have no experiance with them. Next on the list of Coherts is Blackguards Fiend, and Demonlogist Fiend there comparable but max out at 18 hd with full level advancement in the prestige and level 25, there good in the lower levels but personally I think they need more advancement as even with 10 levels invested and max form they don't really do much but eventually get killed. Honerable mention goes to Palemasters Cohort the death stalk eye thinging that really destroys stuff Spell Summons are a whole different ballpark the 9th level spell summons while don't last long hit the field and do damage there good for dropping right before combat to add extra damage. High up they usually die or desummon before going more than 3 encounters and buffing them is not worth it all. Demonoligist gets +2 HD on these, and Corpse Crafter with Necromantic Might gets some Heavy duty killers. Create Greater Undead is the Best Long term summon an 18 HD Mummy that can do some pretty damage when buffed. The Warlocks summon is super handy while maxing it out at level 11 to its giant form you can keep resummoning it. and also got some utility do to unlimeted summoning like Trap busting in some places though theres not a lot of traps yet, also good for gathering up enemies while invisable to prepare a big doom invocation drop. If your gonna be a caster that hides behind a Cohort and summon I suggest Sorc with Golem Master and time those Greater Missiles to finish off foes use Bigbys to slow down particulary dagerous foes that can hurt your golem significantly. |
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GMT: -8. Player Tag: Plaxy100 Steamtag: Plaxy186 Characters: Merrium Pinklily (The Red Death Hin) Brandon Burnfire (Master Evoker) Zinex (half lune warlock) Sssylvgh (Yuan-ti Arcane trickster) Timothy Jack (Bard of the Fated) | |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 25 2016, 03:55 AM Post #3 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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You're always going to do better if you're helping your summon kill things rather than just tossing them out there and hiding. But if that's the way your build requires it, you want to look at several things. First is going to be duration. Summon IX is a fantastic spell, particularly if you have one of the add-ons that gives you a stronger summon, BUT its duration is limited so every round you waste buffing it is one less round for it to kill enemies. Summon VIII lasts twice as long as IX, so in many instances is a better summon to have (also because you likely have uses for your L9 spells). On the other hand, the "pets" of the demonologist, pale master, blackguard, and shadowdancer are not nearly as powerful, but as they'll last until slain they're a lot more useful to cast as many (or more) buffs on than you cast on yourself. So now it comes down to combat, and you need to be concerned with AC, AB, and saving throws, in that order. On a short-term summons, that's all you should worry about, and maybe even saves aren't worth it. You want them to hit foes, and you want them to survive to their duration. It's pretty common knowledge what numbers need to be hit to survive in certain zones. Now, that also means that if you have a "pet", you're going to need to give it more buffs to match what the high-tier summons get naturally. So making sure they're around when you do your own buffs so they can have things like persistent haste, or for clerics keeping close so they can benefit from your battletide or any auras you have, is important. And don't forget some of the little things! If a pet has a weapon, you can cast GMW on it, and if they have armor (some do, but not all) a magic vestment is good. As is something as simple as a shield spell. Your wands are every bit as important to a pet as they are to you. And don't forget that if you've got some spare purples, you can give them to the pet with the npc control tool; just remember not to dismiss them if you want them back! Another nice thing about the "pets" is that because they go in the henchman summon slot, so you can actually have the pet, an actual summon, as well as familiar and/or animal companion if you have those feats, AND a dominated enemy, all at once! Finally, there's Golems. The Iron Golem and particularly the Valorhammer are quite powerful... but golem masters also tend to be rather squishy themselves. Still, everything up to this point applies to them as well. But finally... do NOT expect to let a pet or summon do all the work in the true late-game areas. They can't stand up to the stuff in the Niflheim Ways, or the Shivering Prison, and are going to be utterly unable to deal with most bosses on their own. You're still going to be strongest as part of a party, because literally anything but a strong and well-equipped powerbuild is going to go down hard when it winds up in the middle of a pile of epic foes. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Pellease | Aug 25 2016, 04:08 AM Post #4 |
Greybeard
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Kk great! Yeah, I'm working on making the character more hardy. When it comes to Corpse Crafter are the summons any tougher than natural summons? I mean is it worth it if you're not going for be necromantic might? Also racial fiends, are those the same pets as blackguard and demonologist? And did the death domain summons get tweaked? |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 25 2016, 04:35 AM Post #5 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Death domain summons suck. Racial fiends are actually plain old summons, with the duration based on level rather than caster level. And corpse crafter is nice, but remember that all it really does is give you undead summons in place of the planar ones. Some of them are really nice, yes, but it's more a thematic change than an OMG THIS IS AWESOME change. And regardless of whether you go this way or the demonologist way, you should absolutely make sure to take the Augment Summons feat. And one thing to remember about Necro Might... if you're getting a VIII summon from a VII spell, you'll also be getting the VII duration (I think). |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Pellease | Aug 25 2016, 05:00 AM Post #6 |
Greybeard
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Yeah it looks like duration is the same for all but lol viii. Thanks a ton! You guys are always super helpful! |
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| Tsidkenu | Aug 25 2016, 09:36 AM Post #7 |
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Slightly Less Inactive
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Don't use the Planar Binding line of spells either. They're useless except for their paralysis effect when cast directly on outsiders. It's a shame, though, because their durations are nice. |
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Not-so-inactive Characters Cherry Sapphire Xhallibysskg Timezone: Australian Eastern Daylight Savings Time, GMT/UTC +10 | |
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| Born2BeWild | Aug 25 2016, 10:58 AM Post #8 |
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About corpse crafter+necro might, Deah Tyrant is the best thing vs bosses. |
| Green Bean | |
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| Ceremorph | Aug 25 2016, 12:59 PM Post #9 |
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Dark Mistress of the Toolset
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Actually no, we have a duration tweak in effect. So for instance, Summon I lasts somewhere around ten times as long as Summon IX, simply because the people casting it are low-level and would get almost no benefit from it using the stated time. Also if you get a chance, find an experienced summoner character and have them show you in-game some of the different summons you get. Even better if you can let them show you their summons in action. And just to point out, there are different summons that occur based on a lot of things including class (druids have their own list) and alignment. Also, Born2, this is off-topic but is the Death Tyrant still notably better than other Summon IX and Gate results? Because if so, they may need toning down and/or replacement as much as the druid summons need to be brought up to regular summon levels. |
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We rode on the winds of the rising storm, We ran to the sounds of the thunder. We danced among the lightning bolts, and tore the world asunder. | |
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| Love_on_a_Wire | Aug 25 2016, 01:18 PM Post #10 |
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Braindeader
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Without the exploit and bugs, from what I've seen, it's not that great actually. It'll still toast things with low saves once per round, but in most cases you'd rather have a Gate or non-augmented Summon Creature 9 summon. See, even without the previously demonstrated exploit, the Death Tyrant is still bugged in such a way that the rays ignore immunities, including death, so given long enough it can just fish for a 1 against anything that can fail saves. In the exploit cases, it was just a matter of the magic damage ray repeating a thousand times, even against things that can't fail saves. Also, when it uses the rays, it doesn't break invisibility. Without these factors, it's reasonable in power for the feat investment. Speaking of, I believe the exploit is still doable. |
| Heya! I play Tammy, Daisy and sometimes other halflings. | |
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| Born2BeWild | Aug 25 2016, 02:05 PM Post #11 |
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I mean he is great for boss killing, and i don't mean that 3 buttons abuse. Right now only strat i know to kill last boss in carceri is tank+death tyrant(yep case death ray ignores immunity) |
| Green Bean | |
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| Pellease | Aug 25 2016, 08:30 PM Post #12 |
Greybeard
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Ok new idea on how to go with this. Firstly it assumes a premise: A) Things like Slaad stones may be ways to summon Slaads? B) I think I saw some contracts for fiends in the Foundry once. Maybe. Assuming there are such contracts how inconceivable would it be to play a toon who uses said contracts and items to be a summoner. RPing it as a long drawn out ritual he performed the night before or something? How effective are these henchmen? If they are henchmen at all. And how much gold is a toon sitting on by the time he gets to these more supernatural mercenary options? Can a more powerful run pay for one of these? |
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| Mick64 | Aug 25 2016, 08:46 PM Post #13 |
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They do summon what you think they do, but their power level isn't anything to write home about, especailly once you get to mids / high levels. You can't build a character around them, at least mechanically. |
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Scripter. Login: Electrohydra I play: Anything. Blue Slaad. Lots of things too. Countless, ever-changing alts. | |
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| rapsam2003 | Aug 25 2016, 09:40 PM Post #14 |
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1) Fiend contracts are at the Temple of the Abyss or the Hive's Black Market, iirc. 2) These henchmen are there to help a lowbie character out, not to replace actual summons. Don't bother. |
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The Cambion Morthos: Athar Warlock Vaggol'cyth Krahl: Tiefling Cipher
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| Strawberry Jam | Aug 25 2016, 09:49 PM Post #15 |
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Henchmen can replace some summons since they're full character levels, where as summons and other things vary in how many character levels they actually get. Some summons are better if they're certain class combos like paladin frenzied bezerker. Weaker classes tend to make weaker summons/cohorts. |
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I like Ravenloft & dual wield pistols & physician base class & Psionics & Aberrations & character customization & Book of Exalted Deeds Sorcery: Magi Kingdom of Magic Spirit Shaman: Mushishi Psionics: Fullmetal Alchemist | |
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